If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
On 03/11/2011 1:35 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote:
> > wrote: > >> On 11/2/2011 3:45 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote: >>> Something I don't know ... and can't seem to find out all that >>> easily. >>> >>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid, >>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50. >>> >>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm >>> wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a >>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity. >>> >>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none >>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter >>> solenoid. > >> I believe you will find there is a relay in the circuit. What year >> Golf is it? BTW, yes, it is a lot of current--more than one might >> expect. > > 1990. There's 4mm wiring into and out of the ignition switch when I > last had that part of the sah and steering column uncovered. > > Current flow diagrams (two sources) draw it as direct-wired. > No relay. Most starter relays are no more 30amps so that suggests the current is less than 30amps on most cars. Not having a relay is most unusual but it is a VW. Are you trying to fix a fault, why do you need to know how much current its drawing? Daryl |
Ads |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
D Walford > wrote:
>On 03/11/2011 1:31 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote: >> > wrote: >>> "Bernd Felsche" wrote >>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid, >>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50. >>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm >>>> wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a >>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity. >>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none >>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter >>>> solenoid. >>> Why not put an ammeter in series? >> Because it could fry the poor thing ... >> Most multimeters maxo ut at 10 Amps. >> I suspect that it could be 30A, if not more. >> Bosch book says 30 to 70A, depending on the size of the starter. >That's a hell of a current to be going through the switch, it would be >very unusual for there not to be a relay? Since you ask; not unusual. They're probably counting on the current being intermittent. As the at least 8 million vehicles of that type have exactly that same starter wiring, from 1983 to 1992. And probably another few million Jetta clones produced in China over the past 20 years with the same. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. / \ and postings | --HL Mencken |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
D Walford > wrote:
>On 03/11/2011 1:35 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote: >> > wrote: >>> On 11/2/2011 3:45 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote: >>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid, >>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50. >>>> >>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm >>>> wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a >>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity. >>>> >>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none >>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter >>>> solenoid. >>> I believe you will find there is a relay in the circuit. What year >>> Golf is it? BTW, yes, it is a lot of current--more than one might >>> expect. >> 1990. There's 4mm wiring into and out of the ignition switch when I >> last had that part of the sah and steering column uncovered. >> >> Current flow diagrams (two sources) draw it as direct-wired. >> No relay. >Most starter relays are no more 30amps so that suggests the current is >less than 30amps on most cars. >Not having a relay is most unusual but it is a VW. >Are you trying to fix a fault, why do you need to know how much current >its drawing? No fault. Yet. :-) <http://golf2lin.wordpress.com/node-design/front-body/> -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. / \ and postings | --HL Mencken |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
Bernd Felsche wrote:
> D Walford > wrote: >> On 03/11/2011 1:31 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote: >>> > wrote: >>>> "Bernd Felsche" wrote > >>>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid, >>>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50. > >>>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the >>>>> 4mm wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a >>>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity. > >>>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none >>>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter >>>>> solenoid. > >>>> Why not put an ammeter in series? > >>> Because it could fry the poor thing ... >>> Most multimeters maxo ut at 10 Amps. >>> I suspect that it could be 30A, if not more. >>> Bosch book says 30 to 70A, depending on the size of the starter. > >> That's a hell of a current to be going through the switch, it would >> be very unusual for there not to be a relay? > > Since you ask; not unusual. They're probably counting on the current > being intermittent. > > As the at least 8 million vehicles of that type have exactly that > same starter wiring, from 1983 to 1992. And probably another few > million Jetta clones produced in China over the past 20 years with > the same. I don't think the current draw is as high as you think. I remember a common fix for starting problems due to volt drop was to fit a standard relay. The heavier guage wiring would be to reduce volt drop, not for high current draw. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
On 03/11/2011 8:27 PM, Clocky wrote:
> Bernd Felsche wrote: >> D > wrote: >>> On 03/11/2011 1:31 AM, Bernd Felsche wrote: >>>> > wrote: >>>>> "Bernd Felsche" wrote >> >>>>>> I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid, >>>>>> (not the starter motor) at terminal 50. >> >>>>>> It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the >>>>>> 4mm wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a >>>>>> little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity. >> >>>>>> So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none >>>>>> the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter >>>>>> solenoid. >> >>>>> Why not put an ammeter in series? >> >>>> Because it could fry the poor thing ... >>>> Most multimeters maxo ut at 10 Amps. >>>> I suspect that it could be 30A, if not more. >>>> Bosch book says 30 to 70A, depending on the size of the starter. >> >>> That's a hell of a current to be going through the switch, it would >>> be very unusual for there not to be a relay? >> >> Since you ask; not unusual. They're probably counting on the current >> being intermittent. >> >> As the at least 8 million vehicles of that type have exactly that >> same starter wiring, from 1983 to 1992. And probably another few >> million Jetta clones produced in China over the past 20 years with >> the same. > > I don't think the current draw is as high as you think. I remember a common > fix for starting problems due to volt drop was to fit a standard relay. > That was a common fix on many older Toyota's, I've even fitted a couple myself for the same reason. > The heavier guage wiring would be to reduce volt drop, not for high current > draw. > Most likely spot on. Daryl |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
"PeterD" wrote in message ... On 11/2/2011 8:36 AM, Scotty wrote: > I think that you are thinking of the starter motor current which can > easily reach 300amps. He is asking about the current draw of the actual > solenoid. No, I'm thinking the solenoid, which does draw more current that most people realize. > > theres two ways of easily testing the actual draw. Use an ammeter in > series (or clamp style) and test it, or use an ohmmeter to see what the > resistive load is and work it out that way @ 12v. > An ohmmeter would be less accurate due to the lower resistance, and would not provide a good indication of shorted turns (assuming that is his problem...) The best testing tool is a DC clampon meter, a tool that I find invaluable when diagnosing starter problems. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ><><><><><> I'm sure that a DC Clamp meter is definitely the best option to start with, if its under 10 amps then utilise an in series meter as they are more accurate than most DC clamp meters. Then again, DC clamp meters are not something that most people have lying around in their garage. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
Paul Saccani > wrote:
>Bernd Felsche wrote: >>Something I don't know ... and can't seem to find out all that >>easily. >> >>I'm trying to figure out the current draw by the starter solenoid, >>(not the starter motor) at terminal 50. >> >>It's powered through the ignition switch in the Golf GTI but the 4mm >>wiring has me baffled. That's too much current to go through a >>little ignition switch if the wire is sized for current capacity. >> >>So I assume it's sized to avoid voltage drop, which leaves me none >>the wiser regarding the current actually drawn by the starter >>solenoid. >Easiest way to find out is to stick a clamp meter on it. If you don't >have one, as usual, I can offer to loan you one and you can decline >the offer. I've got one. Actually, a couple. >It also depends on what timescale you want to look at. As an >inductive rather than resistive load, the current can have quite wild >transients, but for average current, 3 to 10 A would be typical for a >pre-engaged starter, and a clamp meter would be able to provide the >average current no worries. >If you do want to know in more detail, and inductive probe and a >storage oscilloscope and a good deal of calculation would be needed. >A short loan of the equipment is possible.... Please stop trying to lend me stuff. Everything that I've ever borrowed uses up space in my shed. ;-) I also have a hand-held, digital 'scope. One of the clamp meters has peak-hold -- I'd forgotten about that. It might do the trick. Well, it'd tell me the current through the circuit. Which isn't necessarily the same current that'll be drawn when the long wire is replaced with a short one and a transistor switch. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. / \ and postings | --HL Mencken |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
"Paul Saccani" wrote in message ... On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 19:47:45 +1000, "Scotty" > wrote: > >I'd be VERY surprised if it was over 10 Amps to be honest. a 4 mm2 cable. >Seeing as a 4mm cable is really only capable of 30 Amps for a reasonably >short time. > >Id be testing with an ammeter. 90% of ammeters have internal fuses >protecting the device anyway. That's a rather optimistic view of the effectiveness of the fuse. The fuse is intended for personnel protection - they rarely protect the meter from *high* currents - errant students demonstrate the art of meter destruction to me at regular intervals. They often blow the tracks away before the fuse blows, sometimes even the internal shunt goes before the fuse does. Cheers, Paul Saccani Perth, Western Australia. ><><><><><><>><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ><><><><><><><><><>< There should be HRC fuses in meters. They should blow well before the tracks, should that is, |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
On 11/5/2011 7:53 AM, Scotty wrote:
> > > "Paul Saccani" wrote in message > ... > > On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 19:47:45 +1000, "Scotty" > > wrote: > >> >> I'd be VERY surprised if it was over 10 Amps to be honest. a 4 mm2 cable. >> Seeing as a 4mm cable is really only capable of 30 Amps for a reasonably >> short time. >> >> Id be testing with an ammeter. 90% of ammeters have internal fuses >> protecting the device anyway. > > That's a rather optimistic view of the effectiveness of the fuse. The > fuse is intended for personnel protection - they rarely protect the > meter from *high* currents - errant students demonstrate the art of > meter destruction to me at regular intervals. > > They often blow the tracks away before the fuse blows, sometimes even > the internal shunt goes before the fuse does. > > Cheers, > Paul Saccani > Perth, Western Australia. >> <><><><><><>><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><>< > > There should be HRC fuses in meters. They should blow well before the > tracks, should that is, Face it, when you pay $5 for a DVOM today (WalMart, Harbor Freight, etc.) any fuse is a luxury. -- I'm never going to grow up. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Starter solenoid current?
On 11/4/2011 10:21 PM, Paul Saccani wrote:
> > Easiest way to find out is to stick a clamp meter on it. If you don't > have one, as usual, I can offer to loan you one and you can decline > the offer. <BSEG> Careful someone may take you up on that! > > It also depends on what timescale you want to look at. As an > inductive rather than resistive load, the current can have quite wild > transients, but for average current, 3 to 10 A would be typical for a > pre-engaged starter, and a clamp meter would be able to provide the > average current no worries. > ] Many (better) clamp-on meters have a peak read feature that will save the highest reading as well display the current value. Very useful for seeing start-up surges. > If you do want to know in more detail, and inductive probe and a > storage oscilloscope and a good deal of calculation would be needed. > A short loan of the equipment is possible.... Again, some DVOMs have RS-232 or other computer output that may allow similar features. Ah, but we're over testing, I think, the OP's problem! -- I'm never going to grow up. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
How much current does a 6V starter motor pull? | Dangermouse | VW air cooled | 10 | April 1st 07 01:04 AM |
- Starter or Solenoid ? - | Intrepid33 | Technology | 3 | February 11th 07 10:52 PM |
- Starter or Solenoid ? | Intrepid33 | Dodge | 0 | February 9th 07 08:33 PM |
starter solenoid on 98 voyager | jdoe | Chrysler | 7 | December 11th 06 12:12 PM |
starter current draw? | N8N | Technology | 13 | September 27th 05 02:34 PM |