Force feedback is rubbish?

"Bruce Kennewell" > wrote in message
...
>I agree. FF is rubbish.
>
> The very first wheel/pedal arrangement I ever bought was the Thrustmaster
> unit...used it for GP2, ICR2, GPL etc.
> No force-feedback on that arrangement.
> Then "upgraded" Aussie-built, non-FF unit (Advantage 1) which gave
> sterling
> service for a couple of years.
> (At odd times I would still revert to my Gravis Pro
> joystick....particularly
> with GPL as I found it much "quicker" to use.)
>
> Then I tried an MS FF unit and hated it.
> No matter how I tweaked it I just could not accept that this was meant to
> replicate real life. I saw no advantage in using it.
> So I gave it to my son and since then I've gone back to the good old
> Gravis
> joystick, which pretends to be nothing other than a very reliable
> joystick.
>
> FF leaves me cold, I'm afraid.
>

How long did you use it b4 you gave up on it?

John DiFool wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:34:36 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I agree. FF is rubbish.
>>
>>The very first wheel/pedal arrangement I ever bought was the Thrustmaster
>>unit...used it for GP2, ICR2, GPL etc.
>>No force-feedback on that arrangement.
>>Then "upgraded" Aussie-built, non-FF unit (Advantage 1) which gave sterling
>>service for a couple of years.
>>(At odd times I would still revert to my Gravis Pro joystick....particularly
>>with GPL as I found it much "quicker" to use.)
>>
>>Then I tried an MS FF unit and hated it.
>>No matter how I tweaked it I just could not accept that this was meant to
>>replicate real life. I saw no advantage in using it.
>>So I gave it to my son and since then I've gone back to the good old Gravis
>>joystick, which pretends to be nothing other than a very reliable joystick.
>>
>>FF leaves me cold, I'm afraid.
>>
>>BK
>>
>
>
> Same planet different worlds. A cable came loose the other night
> and I lost FF on my Red Momo. Kept wandering all over the track;
> FF kind of "locks" me in (any attempts on a straight to wander left
> or right cause the FF to kick in, so much so I can go down something
> like the Mulsanne straight on Le Mans 67 (for NR2003) blind and
> stay on the track.
>
> And I have found it invaluable for feeling bumps and making small
> opposite-lock adjustments to keep the car on course. I can't
> imagine driving without it really.
>
>
I agree. I started up GTL demo the other night, and forgot to turn FFB
back on after doing some fiddling. Well, it took me ages to realise what
was causing me to crash all the time. Of course it was the lack of FFB!
That tells me that FFB is valuable and very subtle.

I have a MSFF wheel and use it for NR2003. I find the FF to be an
invaluable aid in driving. I don't have any of the trouble you are
having with your MOMO, and I have friends who use MOMO wheels and are
very pleased with them.

Sorry you have trouble with yours, but I think you are in the minority.

In article >,
says...
> John DiFool wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:34:36 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I agree. FF is rubbish.
> >>
> >>The very first wheel/pedal arrangement I ever bought was the Thrustmaster
> >>unit...used it for GP2, ICR2, GPL etc.
> >>No force-feedback on that arrangement.
> >>Then "upgraded" Aussie-built, non-FF unit (Advantage 1) which gave sterling
> >>service for a couple of years.
> >>(At odd times I would still revert to my Gravis Pro joystick....particularly
> >>with GPL as I found it much "quicker" to use.)
> >>
> >>Then I tried an MS FF unit and hated it.
> >>No matter how I tweaked it I just could not accept that this was meant to
> >>replicate real life. I saw no advantage in using it.
> >>So I gave it to my son and since then I've gone back to the good old Gravis
> >>joystick, which pretends to be nothing other than a very reliable joystick.
> >>
> >>FF leaves me cold, I'm afraid.
> >>
> >>BK
> >>
> >
> >
> > Same planet different worlds. A cable came loose the other night
> > and I lost FF on my Red Momo. Kept wandering all over the track;
> > FF kind of "locks" me in (any attempts on a straight to wander left
> > or right cause the FF to kick in, so much so I can go down something
> > like the Mulsanne straight on Le Mans 67 (for NR2003) blind and
> > stay on the track.
> >
> > And I have found it invaluable for feeling bumps and making small
> > opposite-lock adjustments to keep the car on course. I can't
> > imagine driving without it really.
> >
> >
> I agree. I started up GTL demo the other night, and forgot to turn FFB
> back on after doing some fiddling. Well, it took me ages to realise what
> was causing me to crash all the time. Of course it was the lack of FFB!
> That tells me that FFB is valuable and very subtle.
>

I think it all depends on what you are used to. Up till now I've driven
without FF in most sims (GPL, F1 99-02, NR2003) and on the odd occasion
have tried turning FF on only to have loads of trouble getting used to
what is going on. In other words I got worse because I had gotten used
to no FF in these sims.

Recently I got a 2nd, faster computer so I could play RBR, which was far
too stuttery on my other computer, plus a 2nd wheel (For network racing)
and FF was set on by default and I've taken to it like a duck to water
simply because I'm not having to retrain myself to get used to a new set
of inputs and way of driving.

--
Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

Not long, Byron.....maybe half a dozen times, primarily in the NASCAR Racing
series.
I just didn't like the feel of it; it simply seemed gimmicky rather than a
useful function.

Bruce.

"Byron Forbes" > wrote in message
...
>
> How long did you use it b4 you gave up on it?
>
>

I found this a couple of years ago on dejanews and saved it as a text
file.

YMMV....

HTH,
Paul

--------------
For the MOMO people, do this.

Start/Settings/Control Panel/Game Controllers.

Then..

Double Left Click on the MOMO, then click the Settings button (bottom
right).

Then set these options...

Combined - unticked (ie: no checkmark) [this allows your brake and gas
pedals to be on a separate axis, which is important to have]

Enable Force Feedback - ticked (ie: checkmark it) [this allows force
feedback in games duh]

Overall Effects Strength - 97% [the reason for 97% and NOT 100% is a long
and complicated explanation, but in short it helps oscillations from
happening]

Spring Effects Strength - 0% [no Papyrus sims use this setting and oddly
enough, if you set it to anything other than 0% you will get undesirable
effects]

Damper Effects Strength - 0% [very VERY important to set this to 0%, this
is probably THE most important setting, as it will greatly increase
notchiness and wheel twitches, even though the Papyrus sims do not
exactly enable it]

Enable Centering Spring - ticked [you are going to find this strange,
because in the next setting I tell you to set it to 0%, which is odd
because why not just untick it? well, there's a reason and here it is...
if you don't tick this option and also don't have Damping set -which if
your going with these settings you won't- then a strange phenomenon
happens, you will find that if you turn your wheel rather sharply, the
resistance of the wheel just "gives out" which is not something you want
to happen. I will also admit that having this unchecked does appear to
give slightly better forces -SLIGHTLY- but the repercussions just aren't
worth it for the payoff. so in the end check this option]

Centering Spring Strength - 0% [this is IMPORTANT! i know it's weird, but
you must set it to 0% - read above option for better explanation]

Then in your Logitech Wingman Profiler, create a Nascar 2003 profile and
then set these settings as follows...

Steering Wheel Sensitivity to 33% [the reason you want to go down from
the default 50% to 33% is because at 50% the wheel is too sensitive to
tiny wheel adjustments... which is not realistic. drive your car and
notice how far you have to turn your wheel... the MOMO have a large
radius to turn, it's a shame most people only move it 5 degrees to either
side. this setting should allow more precise driving and overall
smoothness as well - and you can go down even lower if you wish, to say,
25% if you want to have even more movement, but i suggest 33% for
starters at least, get used to that and go more later if you like the
effect]

Steering Wheel Dead Zone - 2% [another long explanation would be needed
and I don't feel like telling, but in short this also helps oscillations
and twitchiness]

Accelerator Sensitivity - 55% [strangely, this option is the exact
opposite of the Steering, INCREASING this option from the default 50% to
55% makes the gas less sensitive to the immediate input, in other words,
you have to push down farther before the car gets more power. the default
50% is a little touchy - when you barely touch the pedal the car can spin
out. 55% helps this from happening and overall gives a more natural and
fine tune approach]

Accelerator Dead Zone - 2% [much the same reasoning as above, this helps
from keeping your car getting to much gas too fast]

Brake Sensitivity - 55% [exact same reasons as accelerator, increasing
this to 55% helps your brakes from locking up to fast. one word of note
though is that I have modified my brake pedal to include the squash ball
instead of the spring, so that may make a difference in your setup. just
note that increasing this gives less immediate braking and can help if
your tires are locking up too easily under braking]

Brake Dead Zone - 2% [same reasons as all the others dead zones]

Now, in Nascar 2003, enable the Force Feedback option under the Controls
tab and you should run this setting in between 35-65 (50 being most
common setting) depending on the track and more importantly, on your
setup for that track. I know this is a pain to have to do at each
individual track, but depending on your setup you will need to adjust the
strength of the forces in game between each track change.

Just start out from 50 and work from there. the key to adjusting strength
is this... if the wheel has a "notchy" feel, lower the setting till it
JUST goes away, if it doesn't have a notchy feel, then raise it till you
feel the notchyness and then lower it till it just goes away again. In
essence giving you the most forces while remaining smooth.

Leave Damping completely off in game... but *IF* and only if you are
oscillating exiting a corner on the straight, then you can slightly and
slowly increase it in game till you stop oscillating, but I doubt many of
you will have oscillation problems because the settings we set up earlier
should rid you of any. This is the only good thing Damping is good for,
so try not to use it unless you have to because it hurts your performance
elsewhere. and again, NEVER EVER EVER use the Damping setting in windows,
the one found in the control panel... and only use the in-game damping if
you absolutely must (as this can mask the real forces and it also
increases notchiness by a factor of 3 fold).

Leave latency off in game (0%). It only provides fake and incorrect
forcesat usually the wrong time anyways and can definitely get in the way
ofthings and effect the overall impressions of the wheel with the rest of
these settings described here. if you honestly feel like forces are
literally coming too late (which I find very hard to believe) and you
feellike you absolutely have to add to this setting, go ahead and
increase it...with 25 being your absolute max (15 the preferred max) and
0% being the optimal.

Mark wrote:
> Okay, been out of the auto sim picture for quite a while, although I
> used to be really into it - bought one of the first Thrustmaster wheels,
> and played Microprose GP and Indycar a lot. I got out of it just as
> force feedback wheels started to appear.
>
> Recently I decided to buy a force feedback wheel as I was expecting the
> technology to have matured to the point that it would be a great
> experience. Checked the reviews and based on these, I got the Logitech
> momo force wheel.
>
> I have since tried it in a few games, and it is absolutely rubbish! I
> can't believe that people really think that force feedback is good, or
> is it just that my wheel is defective? Problems include:
>
> * When turning the wheel, it is notchy rather than smooth. I have never
> turned a wheel on a real car that feels like this.
>
> * The amount of force required to turn the wheel is the same or close to
> the same irrespective of wheel position, ie, the load to turn it a
> degree from dead centre is the same as the load to turn it from 90 to 91
> degrees. How stupid is this. Anyone who has driven a race car will tell
> you that much more force is required when the wheel is at a high degree
> of lock as the tyres are exerting much more sideways force. This feel is
> critical to tell you what the car is doing.
>
> * Amazingly, force is required to actually turn the wheel, but very
> little force is required to keep it in a given position. This is again
> completely unrealistic. When driving a car, the load derives from the
> angle of the wheel - not changing the angle of the wheel.
>
> Again, I can't believe that people might think that this type of force
> feedback is at all realistic. Do people who are knowledgable about real
> car dynamics use the current force feedback wheels, or do they think
> they are a joke and just use a non-force feedback wheel?


Thanks for all of the feedback. Certainly seem a lot more promising. I
remembered that there was a lot of talk about tweaking when the force
feedback first came out, but I presumed that this would be less
necessary given that the technology should be a lot more mature now. I
still don't like having to do the tweaking as I wouldn't pretend to know
exactly how car X feels on track Y - this should be something that the
game designers do through testing so that you know that it is realistic.

Great post, Paul. That post had been invaluable in getting me started on
the path to finding the settings that worked well for me. I ended up
using much of that, but use a higher "overall effects strength", 0 for
all my dead zones (anything higher made the steering feel too vague on
center for me), and kept the sensitivity set to 50% (in the newer
revisions of the wingman software, this setting is equivalent to near
linear movement - I do all my linearity adjusting in N2003 rather than
here).

Also, I've found that, for me at least, latency settings (in N2003) can
make a huge difference in my ability to achieve optimum lap times. I
usually have it set to 1 or 2, on rare occassions 0, and also rarely
higher than 2 but always less than 20. The setting seems to be tied to
what server and track I am on.

Steve G


Paul Grunwald wrote:

>I found this a couple of years ago on dejanews and saved it as a text
>file.
>
>YMMV....
>
>HTH,
>Paul
>
>--------------
>For the MOMO people, do this.
>
>Start/Settings/Control Panel/Game Controllers.
>
>Then..
>
>Double Left Click on the MOMO, then click the Settings button (bottom
>right).
>
>Then set these options...
>
>Combined - unticked (ie: no checkmark) [this allows your brake and gas
>pedals to be on a separate axis, which is important to have]
>
>Enable Force Feedback - ticked (ie: checkmark it) [this allows force
>feedback in games duh]
>
>Overall Effects Strength - 97% [the reason for 97% and NOT 100% is a long
>and complicated explanation, but in short it helps oscillations from
>happening]
>
>Spring Effects Strength - 0% [no Papyrus sims use this setting and oddly
>enough, if you set it to anything other than 0% you will get undesirable
>effects]
>
>Damper Effects Strength - 0% [very VERY important to set this to 0%, this
>is probably THE most important setting, as it will greatly increase
>notchiness and wheel twitches, even though the Papyrus sims do not
>exactly enable it]
>
>Enable Centering Spring - ticked [you are going to find this strange,
>because in the next setting I tell you to set it to 0%, which is odd
>because why not just untick it? well, there's a reason and here it is...
>if you don't tick this option and also don't have Damping set -which if
>your going with these settings you won't- then a strange phenomenon
>happens, you will find that if you turn your wheel rather sharply, the
>resistance of the wheel just "gives out" which is not something you want
>to happen. I will also admit that having this unchecked does appear to
>give slightly better forces -SLIGHTLY- but the repercussions just aren't
>worth it for the payoff. so in the end check this option]
>
>Centering Spring Strength - 0% [this is IMPORTANT! i know it's weird, but
>you must set it to 0% - read above option for better explanation]
>
>Then in your Logitech Wingman Profiler, create a Nascar 2003 profile and
>then set these settings as follows...
>
>Steering Wheel Sensitivity to 33% [the reason you want to go down from
>the default 50% to 33% is because at 50% the wheel is too sensitive to
>tiny wheel adjustments... which is not realistic. drive your car and
>notice how far you have to turn your wheel... the MOMO have a large
>radius to turn, it's a shame most people only move it 5 degrees to either
>side. this setting should allow more precise driving and overall
>smoothness as well - and you can go down even lower if you wish, to say,
>25% if you want to have even more movement, but i suggest 33% for
>starters at least, get used to that and go more later if you like the
>effect]
>
>Steering Wheel Dead Zone - 2% [another long explanation would be needed
>and I don't feel like telling, but in short this also helps oscillations
>and twitchiness]
>
>Accelerator Sensitivity - 55% [strangely, this option is the exact
>opposite of the Steering, INCREASING this option from the default 50% to
>55% makes the gas less sensitive to the immediate input, in other words,
>you have to push down farther before the car gets more power. the default
>50% is a little touchy - when you barely touch the pedal the car can spin
>out. 55% helps this from happening and overall gives a more natural and
>fine tune approach]
>
>Accelerator Dead Zone - 2% [much the same reasoning as above, this helps
>from keeping your car getting to much gas too fast]
>
>Brake Sensitivity - 55% [exact same reasons as accelerator, increasing
>this to 55% helps your brakes from locking up to fast. one word of note
>though is that I have modified my brake pedal to include the squash ball
>instead of the spring, so that may make a difference in your setup. just
>note that increasing this gives less immediate braking and can help if
>your tires are locking up too easily under braking]
>
>Brake Dead Zone - 2% [same reasons as all the others dead zones]
>
>Now, in Nascar 2003, enable the Force Feedback option under the Controls
>tab and you should run this setting in between 35-65 (50 being most
>common setting) depending on the track and more importantly, on your
>setup for that track. I know this is a pain to have to do at each
>individual track, but depending on your setup you will need to adjust the
>strength of the forces in game between each track change.
>
>Just start out from 50 and work from there. the key to adjusting strength
>is this... if the wheel has a "notchy" feel, lower the setting till it
>JUST goes away, if it doesn't have a notchy feel, then raise it till you
>feel the notchyness and then lower it till it just goes away again. In
>essence giving you the most forces while remaining smooth.
>
>Leave Damping completely off in game... but *IF* and only if you are
>oscillating exiting a corner on the straight, then you can slightly and
>slowly increase it in game till you stop oscillating, but I doubt many of
>you will have oscillation problems because the settings we set up earlier
>should rid you of any. This is the only good thing Damping is good for,
>so try not to use it unless you have to because it hurts your performance
>elsewhere. and again, NEVER EVER EVER use the Damping setting in windows,
>the one found in the control panel... and only use the in-game damping if
>you absolutely must (as this can mask the real forces and it also
>increases notchiness by a factor of 3 fold).
>
>Leave latency off in game (0%). It only provides fake and incorrect
>forcesat usually the wrong time anyways and can definitely get in the way
>ofthings and effect the overall impressions of the wheel with the rest of
>these settings described here. if you honestly feel like forces are
>literally coming too late (which I find very hard to believe) and you
>feellike you absolutely have to add to this setting, go ahead and
>increase it...with 25 being your absolute max (15 the preferred max) and
>0% being the optimal.
>
>
>

> Not long, Byron.....maybe half a dozen times, primarily in the NASCAR
> Racing
> series.
> I just didn't like the feel of it; it simply seemed gimmicky rather than
> a
> useful function.

The Papyrus games are regarded by most people to have the worst FF among
the good sims.

Richard Burns Rally probably has the best FF of any sim (at least with
Logitech wheels)

"Steve Simpson" > wrote in message
news
>> Not long, Byron.....maybe half a dozen times, primarily in the NASCAR
>> Racing
>> series.
>> I just didn't like the feel of it; it simply seemed gimmicky rather than
>> a
>> useful function.
>
> The Papyrus games are regarded by most people to have the worst FF among
> the good sims.
>
> Richard Burns Rally probably has the best FF of any sim (at least with
> Logitech wheels)

Bruce, when I first got the Black Momo I now use I called it "Force
Fightback" since it was like a match of wills between me and the wheel!
It took me about 2 weeks and many hours to adjust. To sim without it now is
unimaginable! Instead of driving without any feel at all, the best way I can
think of to describe my driving atm is that I follow the FF - it is a great
guide.

I see no problem with it with NR2003 and irrespective of how authentic,
realistic, etc it might be, it undoubtedly gives you a much greater feel for
track and car and is undoubtedly an enhancement to both the sim experience
and speed/consistancy (I remember Greg Stewart mentioning the word
"consistancy" when i first asked him about it way back - and he's definantly
right. No surprise there! LOL)

I hereby label ?simming? without FF as arcade! More seriously though,
simming is simply not as good in any reguard without FF!