Trail(er) trash

That's only in his little part of the world. I wonder how many people he
has caught in his fields? Maybe 10-12 people. That's not even 1 thousands
of 1 per cent of all offroaders. I do feel for his pain. I wouldn't want
anyone destroying my property, but to state that he "dislikes fourwheelers",
is a very biased opinion. What about the clubs that spend weekends cleaning
trails, building trails or otherwise helping build the hobby?

Jim Smith

"R. Lander" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> C. E. White wrote:
>
>> I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four wheeling." I run a
>> small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my fields are
>> just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around in my
>> field
>> cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride around in
>> unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to leave only
>> to
>> catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small (very small)
>> percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the category
>> as
>> a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private property, I
>> can only imagine how they treat "our" land.
>
> Thanks for telling it like is really is. "Tread lightly" is a big joke
> for many of them.
>
> R. Lander
>

Oh and your lies are okay to spread. Look, you can have your opinion, I
will have mine. Agree to disagree, that's the best we can hope for.

Jim Smith

"R. Lander" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I replied to your Limbaugh-script comments using my original subject
> header, not your altered one.
>
> You forget that the Nazis were far-right punks with no respect for
> "lower life forms." They shared traits with modern right-wingers who
> think nature should yield at will beneath their Jeep tires. Don't
> pretend you're operating on some higher moral plain with all your lies
> about endless frontiers.
>
> R. Lander
>
> Corey Shuman wrote:
>> Nice agenda, but complete bull****. Sorry, but Id like to see any proof
>> of this other than just your unsubstantiated ramblings.
>> Maybe you should define what you think an enviromentalist is, because
>> if you are talking about your average hippie hiker, out on his bike or
>> walking through the trails they leave more impact than the average 4wd
>> trail rider. Powerbar wrappers, feces and "biodegradable" toilet paper
>> to name a few, oh and the ability to turn an area upside down to
>> accomodate their extended camping stays.
>>
>> But since you are on a roll, lets explore your extremely flawed logic.
>> The "Conquer Nature" mentality is the reason you even have these spots
>> to enjoy. Mining companys, prospectors and railroad companys were out
>> here not to conquer nature but to make a living from it and make it a
>> livable space at the same time. This land is our land, not yours not
>> ours, but OUR land collectively, that means that what may be fun to
>> some is not fun to other but you tolerate or are at least respectful to
>> each other.
>>
>> Since you have so much to say about this, I assume that you have
>> positioned yourself to do something about it though, right. You are out
>> every weekend cleaning up the trails and organizing groups to monitor
>> the land, right? Id be willing to be not. You know the history and
>> geography of the lands you visit and leave them in a better state than
>> when you arrived. Right?
>>
>> Sorry, but you just really have no clue as to what you are talking
>> about here. There is plenty of wild frontier, unexplored canyons,
>> mountains and valleys. But you have to be motivated to get out there
>> and usually it is the offroader who has that drive and sense of
>> adventure. The average enviromentalist waits for an area to be opened
>> up, then wanders in and says it should be closed to the very same
>> people who found it. Great logic, if it wasnt for the explorers you
>> guys wouldnt have any areas to whine about.
>>
>> So keep this kind of unsubstatiated BS on the SUWA and other
>> short-sighted groups sites, cause it holds no water here.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Corey T. Shuman
>>
>> www.goldrushexpeditions.com
>>
>> R. Lander wrote:
>> > The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
>> > all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
>> > Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
>> > view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
>> > it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>> >
>> > People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
>> > sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
>> > Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
>> > to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
>> > It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>> >
>> > It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
>> > environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
>> > protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
>> > Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
>> > impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
>> > the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
>> > to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>> >
>> > In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
>> > more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
>> > places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
>> > trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>> >
>> > R. Lander
>

Steve Foley wrote:

> It seems like you're saying that all of the land will eventually be
> bulldozed, but until that happens, you want it 'preserved' for your personal
> enjoyment.

Of course we can never pave all the land, but it shouldn't need
constant protection from growth unless it's lucky enough to be saved as
a park. The idea that more land must to be used all the time is
illogical. We should lower our birthrates instead of living like cattle
always trying to break down fences for a bigger range.

Instead of making it about hikers vs. Jeepers, we need to stop pitting
Man against nature, period. It's a philosophical thing, not a Jeep
thing. Noise and wilderness don't mix. You can raise a ruckus in town
or test your 4WD capabilities on a local dirt plot. We are running out
of places where the true appeal of nature can be experienced. Nature
is, in many ways, the absence of mechanical noise. When I hear a
powerboat on a lake or an engine in the woods, I wonder why I traveled
that far just to be reminded of the blasted city.

R. Lander

Ever been to Montana? More 4 wheel drive vehicles there and more open land
than almost any other state.


"R. Lander" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Steve Foley wrote:
>
>> It seems like you're saying that all of the land will eventually be
>> bulldozed, but until that happens, you want it 'preserved' for your
>> personal
>> enjoyment.
>
> Of course we can never pave all the land, but it shouldn't need
> constant protection from growth unless it's lucky enough to be saved as
> a park. The idea that more land must to be used all the time is
> illogical. We should lower our birthrates instead of living like cattle
> always trying to break down fences for a bigger range.
>
> Instead of making it about hikers vs. Jeepers, we need to stop pitting
> Man against nature, period. It's a philosophical thing, not a Jeep
> thing. Noise and wilderness don't mix. You can raise a ruckus in town
> or test your 4WD capabilities on a local dirt plot. We are running out
> of places where the true appeal of nature can be experienced. Nature
> is, in many ways, the absence of mechanical noise. When I hear a
> powerboat on a lake or an engine in the woods, I wonder why I traveled
> that far just to be reminded of the blasted city.
>
> R. Lander
>

Where the hell did you come from? It is SO easy to make so many
generalizations when, in fact, you really don't have a clue about which you
speak. Many of the folks here are the true environmentalists. Since you're
a professed environmentalist, what specifically have YOU done to help the
environment, other that come to a place like this and anonimously bitch
about what we do? The best generalization you come up with is "people who
bash environmentalism don't respect the environment that much." That is so
illogical it's stupid. Someone may like a certain musician's music, but not
the musician himself. Oh, and the made-up name "R. Lander" is just so
typical of someone so far on the fringe that you have put yourself in the
category of "Wacko" without anybody here having to fling that your way.



"R. Lander" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>
> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>
> It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>
> In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>
> R. Lander
>

"C. E. White" > wrote in message
news:447f1d17@kcnews01...
>I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four
>wheeling." I run a
> small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my
> fields are
> just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around
> in my field
> cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride
> around in
> unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to
> leave only to
> catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small
> (very small)
> percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the
> category as
> a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private
> property, I
> can only imagine how they treat "our" land.
>
> Ed
==========================
Excuse me while I don't believe you. In fact, I'll even call it
a lie. I don't 4-wheel, but no farmer I know would be such a
pussy about people driving through their bean fields.(I also
don't know any farmers that spcifically say soybean field instead
of just bean field)
Hell, even if you 'accidentally' run off a road and damage crops
around here, you're going to pay for them.




>
>

R. Lander did pass the time by typing:
> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.

Excuse me, but I would love to point out the "respect" for nature
left by non-off-road enthusiasts. The trash that litters the road,
the bottles and cans left all over the park and lakeshore, the piles
of tires and shingles dumped along river access roads by builders
that don't want to pay the $20 to use the city landfill, the drivers
that mindlessly fick cigarette butts out the window, the folks that
leave full baby diapers in the mall parking lot. The empty candy bar
wrappers I have to pick up that were dropped by kids walking to school
every day. Shall I continue?

I doubt very much these "anthropocentric mouth-breathers", as you put
it, are anything more than teenage kids whose parents have failed
miserably to educate them in the proper respect for property that
is not theirs. You can't fix a lack of proper parenting with Ritalin.

> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of off-road litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.

Now hold on a bit. I have that conquer-nature mentality and never
break new trails. Point of fact most of my "conquering of nature"
involves my own two feet and marked trails. The Jeep is just to get
to the trailhead. I also doubt you will find _any_ readers of ra4,
rb, or ramjw that leave any trash behind and quite a few that cart
out what they can even if it isn't theirs.

Furthermore I (along with others and not just enviros or 4WD folk)
actually work to pick up the garbage left by folks dumping their
trash on public and private lands.

There were locations around here specifically for folks to "whoop it up".
At the lake there was actually several but in order to maintain water
quality they had to re-sod and shut down one of them. (I helped
plant sod there). The area was fenced but a bunch of assholes tore
down the fence and tore up the sod. Now all the recreation area was
shut down and concrete caissons put in to block the road. Now we have
a private area (private land) where control can be maintained and the
litter is now a non-issue.

--
DougW

I'm no farmer but even if I was, I'd be VERY ****ed if offroaders were
screwing up my plowed fields that I use to earn my living with. But as
an active offroader, I wheel with and know no one that would do such a
thing. Although ANY sport has its jerks, offroaders today are very
respectful of private property and other areas that are off-limits to
offroading. "Tread Lightly" is taken very seriously by most offroaders.
Those that don't are like jerks anywhere... they do what they please
without regards to others.

And Rick, I can't believe you'd call a farmer a "pussy" because he got
****ed over offroaders who screwed up his cultivated fields. I'd bet
big money if someone came onto any of your property that was cultivated
and screwed it up that you'd scream bloody murder.

rick wrote:
> "C. E. White" > wrote in message
> news:447f1d17@kcnews01...
>
>>I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four
>>wheeling." I run a
>>small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my
>>fields are
>>just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around
>>in my field
>>cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride
>>around in
>>unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to
>>leave only to
>>catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small
>>(very small)
>>percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the
>>category as
>>a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private
>>property, I
>>can only imagine how they treat "our" land.
>>
>>Ed
>
> ==========================
> Excuse me while I don't believe you. In fact, I'll even call it
> a lie. I don't 4-wheel, but no farmer I know would be such a
> pussy about people driving through their bean fields.(I also
> don't know any farmers that spcifically say soybean field instead
> of just bean field)
> Hell, even if you 'accidentally' run off a road and damage crops
> around here, you're going to pay for them.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>

--
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL N6TAY
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

You may have something there.

If the liberals and Demoncrats could keep their pants zipped the population
would drop severely and decent people might again populate the earth.



"R. Lander" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Steve Foley wrote:
>
>> It seems like you're saying that all of the land will eventually be
>> bulldozed, but until that happens, you want it 'preserved' for your
>> personal
>> enjoyment.
>
> Of course we can never pave all the land, but it shouldn't need
> constant protection from growth unless it's lucky enough to be saved as
> a park. The idea that more land must to be used all the time is
> illogical. We should lower our birthrates instead of living like cattle
> always trying to break down fences for a bigger range.
>
> Instead of making it about hikers vs. Jeepers, we need to stop pitting
> Man against nature, period. It's a philosophical thing, not a Jeep
> thing. Noise and wilderness don't mix. You can raise a ruckus in town
> or test your 4WD capabilities on a local dirt plot. We are running out
> of places where the true appeal of nature can be experienced. Nature
> is, in many ways, the absence of mechanical noise. When I hear a
> powerboat on a lake or an engine in the woods, I wonder why I traveled
> that far just to be reminded of the blasted city.
>
> R. Lander
>

Not a bad troll....

I am in the woods year round and see idiots in all manners of vehicles
and modes of transportation. That doesn't mean all the people in the
woods are idiots though...

The group I wheel with are from the rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
newsgroup and we actually clean the trails and have been part of
organized clean ups in our local mud pit area. You should see the pits
in the spring when the snowmobile trails have melted down! What a bunch
of slobs! Are all snowmobilers slobs, no, but enough of them to really
make a mess.... Now the same snowmobilers are getting on the trails in
ATV's.... Jeepers use the trails year round in their Jeeps.

We always pack out more than we brought in and leave a clean camp. We
also like to wander along the forestry/logging/mining roads to see what
we find or where we end up. Usually to try and find a remote area to
set up a base camp and we do bring canoes and dingies and things. We
don't go trespassing on posted land nor do we tear up new trails or
fields. We have avoided winter trails when asked by the loggers so the
road would set up or freeze smooth for their big rigs. We always make a
point of talking to the folks working in the bush so we can stay out of
their way.

Unfortunately I see far too many of the slob types you are referring to
in the woods... All we can do is try to educate them. Their parents
were likely slobs too...

I have been accused of being elitest because I don't want to make all
the trails I know public domain with internet directions even, but man
the moron factor has been getting pretty bad out there lately....

I like taking out groups of new and/or young Jeep owners to show them
what their Jeep can do without either destroying their Jeep or the
environment. We lead by example eh. Our son, now 22 and his friends
turned out as responsible adults.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

"R. Lander" wrote:
>
> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>
> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>
> It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>
> In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>
> R. Lander