Best no BS motor oil/filter comparison?

Steve wrote:

> If you believe that particular engines are "not suitable for synthetic
> oil," then there's no use trying to have an intelligent,
> engineering-based discussion.

LOL, it took you this long to figure that out?!

Certain engines may not be suitable for 0W30 oil, but as long as you
stick with the proper weight oil you'll be fine. The color of the oil is
no indication of anything. Probably what happened was the Briggs and
Stratton engine had a non-detergent motor oil, and the synthetic was a
detergent oil. Non-detergent oils are often used as factory fills on
lawn equipment. After a couple of oil changes the gunk on the engine
would have been gone, and the synthetic would look just as clean as
whatever was used before.

Steve > wrote:
>>
>> I also had an edger with a Briggs and Stratton engine and the oil turned
>> black after one use. I knew immediately that the Briggs and Stratton engine
>> I had then (don't know about newer ones) was not suitably built for
>> synthetic oil (in the same way those Chevy Caprice and Crown Vic engines
>> used in NYC taxis are not suitable for synthetic oil).
>
>If you believe that particular engines are "not suitable for synthetic
>oil," then there's no use trying to have an intelligent,
>engineering-based discussion.

In the case of small engines with splash-plate lubrication rather than
an oil pump, the synthetic oils are NOT generally suitable for them. The
better flow characteristics of the synthetics mean the splash plate cannot
pick up enough oil.

This is why Royal Purple, for instance, makes a special synthetic oil
that is designed to be extra-sticky, for small engines.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 2008-12-01, jim <".sjedgingN0sp"@m> wrote:

> Yes, and "becoming acidic" is just one of the things that happens to oil as the
> miles go by. So what is the advantage of getting a good additive package that
> counteracts or slows down that inevitable deterioration versus just changing the
> oil more frequently to avoid the deterioration?

Guess that depends on how much you value your time or enjoy doing oil
changes.

Steve wrote:
>
> jim wrote:
>
> >
> > As far as I know the type of dirt that gets into oil due to combustion
> > byproducts is not going to be any different for synthetic oil.
>
> That's true, and is a key part of this discussion. Too bad its being
> discussed in terms of "synthetic" versus "conventional," because that
> really doesn't matter. What DOES matter is the rest of the oil additive
> package, in particular the compoenents that maintain the total base
> number (TBN) and keep the oil from becoming acidic. You can have
> synthetics with poor TBN control additive, and you can have
> conventionals with good packages. Now *most* synthetics also happen to
> be higher-end oils and have decent additive packages... but its not
> BECAUSE they're synthetic.

Yes, and "becoming acidic" is just one of the things that happens to oil as the
miles go by. So what is the advantage of getting a good additive package that
counteracts or slows down that inevitable deterioration versus just changing the
oil more frequently to avoid the deterioration?


-jim


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"Steve" > wrote in message >
> If you believe that particular engines are "not suitable for synthetic
> oil," then there's no use trying to have an intelligent, engineering-based
> discussion.

No, there isnt.. I went back to the distributor on this and they told me
that B&S did not recommend synthetics in this engine, and I shouldnt
have assumed that the Mobil 1 would be a good choice after break-in.

I went into the B&S, honed it, installed new rings, etc, and it lasted a few
hours, but quickly went to hell again. Got rid of it, dont want to hear
that
technically the synthetic should have been great..
Either the B&S was BS, or the lubricant was unacceptable.

Next mower, I used what B&S recommended, and it worked fine (until it
was stolen a couple of months ago).

I can talk engineering with you all day long, but this is not a case where I
am very open to "shoulda, coulda, and woulda".

"SMS" > wrote in message news:92VYk.8434 After a
couple of oil changes the gunk on the engine
> would have been gone, and the synthetic would look just as clean as
> whatever was used before.

This was not a case of gunk, although the oil became black very quickly.
The engine started using oil very badly soon after the Mobil I was used.
That was the reason for the problem, not oil color.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> HLS wrote:
>>
>> "Mark A" > wrote in message news:0clYk.1725
>>> I also had an edger with a Briggs and Stratton engine and the oil turned
>>> black after one use. I knew immediately that the Briggs and Stratton
>>> engine I had then (don't know about newer ones) was not suitably built
>>> for synthetic oil (in the same way those Chevy Caprice and Crown Vic
>>> engines used in NYC taxis are not suitable for synthetic oil).
>>
>> Mine was a B&S too, Mark.. The engine was ruined in short order.
>
> And I've been using synthetic oil in 2 B&S 6-horsepower lawnmowers and a
> 5-horsepower tiller for over 10 years now. All 3 are good as new, despite
> being air-cooled engines that see most of their operation in near-100
> degree F ambient temperatures.
>
> Of course the same was true of the 60s B&S engines I had back in the 70s
> and 80s that only got single-grade SAE 30 dino oil, too. I just can't kill
> a B&S, and I sure don't take it easy on them. I've only ever gotten rid of
> a B&S powered mower because the mower deck fell apart around the engine.

These were modern B&S engines, not old ones. The old ones were very likely
better
made.

"Mark A" > wrote in message
...
> "larry moe 'n curly" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I once cut open a used Fram PH2951, and it had metal end caps. I
>> did
>> this because I had dropped the new filter, denting it on the end,
>> and
>> wanted to see if anything inside could have gotten hit.
>
> Fram makes 4 different "grades" of filters, which range in price
> from about $3 to $11 (they also make filters for OEM use and for
> other companies). Trying to lump them all together as one product,
> would be like comparing a Chevy with a Cadillac, just because they
> are both made by GM.
>
> Yes, the $3 Fram filter sucks. So do all other $3 filters.

What $3 Fram filer? I checked on-line prices at local auto parts
stores (Advance and AutoZone). The $3.99 Fram (PH2) and the $6.99 Fram
(TG2) equivalents to the Motorcraft FL820S ($3.68) both include the
same glued cardboard end caps and the same mediocre relief valve. The
$6.99 Fram filter does buy you a silicone anti-drain back valve.
However, the CHEAPER Motorcraft FL820S includes the silicone
anti-drain back valve, a very robust pressure relief valve, and potted
metal end caps. There is no comparison, the Fram filters are a rip
off, at least for this application.

Maybe for other applications, the Fram filters are better. I can't say
for sure. I've only cut open Fram filters for a few applications
(FL820S, FL1, a Honda Filter) and they all had the same basic
construction that I don't like.

Ed

SMS wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>> jim wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As far as I know the type of dirt that gets into oil due to
>>> combustion
>>> byproducts is not going to be any different for synthetic oil.
>>
>> That's true, and is a key part of this discussion. Too bad its being
>> discussed in terms of "synthetic" versus "conventional," because that
>> really doesn't matter. What DOES matter is the rest of the oil
>> additive package, in particular the compoenents that maintain the
>> total base number (TBN) and keep the oil from becoming acidic. You can
>> have synthetics with poor TBN control additive, and you can have
>> conventionals with good packages. Now *most* synthetics also happen to
>> be higher-end oils and have decent additive packages... but its not
>> BECAUSE they're synthetic.
>
> That's why an inexpensive oil analysis is a good idea in order to
> determine the optimal interval. Usually what it finds is that users of
> conventional oil are changing their oil far too often, and those trying
> to extend their oil changes to beyond 10,000 miles, with the use of
> synthetics, have used up the oil additive package, especially in terms
> of acid neutralizers, even though the oil still is lubricating. Perhaps
> that's one of the reasons that Mobil backed down on it's original
> marketing promotion of 25K oil changes.

From where I sit, spending extra for slightly more frequent oil changes
costs about the same as regular UOAs.

It would be different if I were managing a fleet. Well, my wife
considers 3 vintage muscle cars and 3 daily drivers a "fleet," but I
don't... :-)

Mark A wrote:
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> news
>> If you believe that particular engines are "not suitable for synthetic
>> oil," then there's no use trying to have an intelligent, engineering-based
>> discussion.
>
> Based on looking at the very dirty oil after first use on my Briggs and
> Stratton engine, I made the determination that synthetic would not work well
> in that engine, even though I had no problem with it in my Honda lawnmower.
> Someone else mentioned in this thread that they put synthetic oil in a B&S
> engine and it was ruined.
>
> You can **** and moan about intelligence all you want to, but those are the
> facts.

There might be some fact involved if you could tell me one single reason
that a synthetic oil wouldn't work in a given engine, given that
synthetic oils and conventional oils all meet the same API specs and
are, in fact, mixable. If we were talking about a vintage airplane
engine with silver-indium bearings, then yeah you can talk about
synthetics (or ANY automotive oil for that matter) not being "suitable,"
but you're talking about an engine designed to run on the same oils as
any automobile, not some quirky bit of engineering.

All you gave me is some hear-say based on some eyeball determination
that the oil "got black." It might be as simple as excessive blow-by on
a new engine while the rings seat... but it has NOTHING to do with the
engine not being "suitable" for synthetic oil!