Power window operation

I would like to mention my observation on how the power windows operate
electrically. The system consists of one where all 4 window motors (4 door
car) have power on both leads whenever the ignition is on. Pressing a
window switch simply removes power from and grounds one lead or the other to
make the window go up or down. The switch leads should be as follows:



Driver's door master switch:



1. Power from ignition

2. Ground

3. Driver's side front window motor down when grounded

4. Driver's side front window motor up when grounded

5. Driver's side rear window down when grounded

6. Driver's side rear window up when grounded

7. Passenger's side front window down when grounded

8. Passenger's side front window up when grounded

9. Passenger's side rear window down when grounded

10. Passenger's side rear window up when grounded



All other door's slave switches



1. Ground

2. From Driver's door down when grounded

3. From Driver's door up when grounded

4. Door window motor down when grounded

5. Door window motor up when grounded



When you press the window lock button on the master switch it simply grounds
all six wires going to the three other doors so that there is no power for
the passengers to operate the window. When the driver presses a button for
one of the other windows with them locked it simply temporarily applies
power to the necessary wire.

Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> I would like to mention my observation on how the power windows operate
> electrically. The system consists of one where all 4 window motors (4 door
> car) have power on both leads whenever the ignition is on. Pressing a
> window switch simply removes power from and grounds one lead or the other to
> make the window go up or down. The switch leads should be as follows:

Looking at my LH car schematics, the two motor leads are always grounded
when no switch is pressed. A given motor operates when *power* (nominal
+12V) is applied to one of the leads.

Your last paragraph below is consistent with my LH car and contradicts
where you say above that power is applied to both leads of the motor.


> Driver's door master switch:
>
>
>
> 1. Power from ignition
>
> 2. Ground
>
> 3. Driver's side front window motor down when grounded

Again, on my LH car, both leads are grounded. The motor operates up or
down when one or the other lead gets connected to +12V.

> 4. Driver's side front window motor up when grounded
>
> 5. Driver's side rear window down when grounded
>
> 6. Driver's side rear window up when grounded
>
> 7. Passenger's side front window down when grounded
>
> 8. Passenger's side front window up when grounded
>
> 9. Passenger's side rear window down when grounded
>
> 10. Passenger's side rear window up when grounded
>
>
>
> All other door's slave switches
>
>
>
> 1. Ground
>
> 2. From Driver's door down when grounded

Again - change "grounded" to "power (+12V) applied"

> 3. From Driver's door up when grounded
>
> 4. Door window motor down when grounded
>
> 5. Door window motor up when grounded
>
>
>
> When you press the window lock button on the master switch it simply grounds
> all six wires going to the three other doors so that there is no power for
> the passengers to operate the window.

No - it breaks the connection to the power source wire in the driver
switch console.

> When the driver presses a button for
> one of the other windows with them locked it simply temporarily applies
> power to the necessary wire.

Finally - that is correct. But that contradicts what you said in your
very first paragraph about a wire being switched to ground to operate a
motor. In a given system (except when the lock is on), either power is
applied all the time to both wires (as you started out saying), and the
motor operates when one wire or the other is grounded, *or*, as is the
case in my LH car, and probably most other Chryslers, both wires are
grounded, and the motor operates when power is applied to one or the
other wire. The first part of your post describes the first way. Your
last paragraph is based on the second way. A given system has to be one
way or the other all the way thru.

If you'd like to see a real schematic to check it out, see this (a
picture is worth a kilo-word):
http://public.fotki.com/peva/concord.../71541402.html

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...
>
> Finally - that is correct. But that contradicts what you said in your
> very first paragraph about a wire being switched to ground to operate a
> motor. In a given system (except when the lock is on), either power is
> applied all the time to both wires (as you started out saying), and the
> motor operates when one wire or the other is grounded, *or*, as is the
> case in my LH car, and probably most other Chryslers, both wires are
> grounded, and the motor operates when power is applied to one or the other
> wire. The first part of your post describes the first way. Your last
> paragraph is based on the second way. A given system has to be one way or
> the other all the way thru.
>
> If you'd like to see a real schematic to check it out, see this (a picture
> is worth a kilo-word):
> http://public.fotki.com/peva/concord.../71541402.html
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
> with the letter 'x')

I said in the final paragraph that that only applied when locked AKA when
the window lock button is pressed. Anyway that is basically how it works.
In a normally hot system like I posted when the driver presses the window
lock button all leads to the other doors are switched from hot to ground.
In a normally grounded system like in your LH when the driver presses the
window lock button all the leads to the other doors are switched from ground
to hot. The only difference between the systems is that in one the fifth
lead to the slave switches is always grounded and in the other the fifth
lead is always hot. In fact you could convert the LH to the other system by
cutting the hot wire off of and grounding the fifth wire on all of the slave
switches and then reversing the hot and ground leads on the master switch.
The windows would then probably go up when you pressed down and vise versa
but it would still work. It would also have the mechanic at the chrysler
dealer scratching his head if you ever had them look at it.

Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Finally - that is correct. But that contradicts what you said in your
>>very first paragraph about a wire being switched to ground to operate a
>>motor. In a given system (except when the lock is on), either power is
>>applied all the time to both wires (as you started out saying), and the
>>motor operates when one wire or the other is grounded, *or*, as is the
>>case in my LH car, and probably most other Chryslers, both wires are
>>grounded, and the motor operates when power is applied to one or the other
>>wire. The first part of your post describes the first way. Your last
>>paragraph is based on the second way. A given system has to be one way or
>>the other all the way thru.
>>
>>If you'd like to see a real schematic to check it out, see this (a picture
>>is worth a kilo-word):
>>http://public.fotki.com/peva/concord.../71541402.html
>>
>>Bill Putney
>>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
>>with the letter 'x')
>
>
> I said in the final paragraph that that only applied when locked AKA when
> the window lock button is pressed. Anyway that is basically how it works.
> In a normally hot system like I posted when the driver presses the window
> lock button all leads to the other doors are switched from hot to ground.
> In a normally grounded system like in your LH when the driver presses the
> window lock button all the leads to the other doors are switched from ground
> to hot.

You don't know what you are talking about. I even posted a link to the
schematic, which you apparetnly don't know how to read. The lock switch
in the LH car simply disconnects power source (a single contact) to the
passenger door switches. You said it switches from ground to hot.
Totally wrong. It interrupts one power lead.

The fact that you can't follow that makes me skeptical of your
description of your opposite ("normally hot") system.

> ...The only difference between the systems is that in one the fifth
> lead to the slave switches is always grounded...

That must be your "normally hot" system, since that lead is always hot
in the opposite (LH car) system. Yet, you said in your first post that
the lock switch grounds that lead. I suspect the lead is normally
grounded and the lock switch interrupts that ground connection (just
like the opposote system has that lead normally hot, and the lock switch
interrupts it - again - see the schematic that I linked). Find a
schematic of your system and see how it really works.


> ...and in the other the fifth
> lead is always hot.

You must be talking about the LH car system there. Yes - that lead is
always hot (and gets interrupted by the lock switch.

> In fact you could convert the LH to the other system by
> cutting the hot wire off of and grounding the fifth wire on all of the slave
> switches and then reversing the hot and ground leads on the master switch.
> The windows would then probably go up when you pressed down and vise versa
> but it would still work. It would also have the mechanic at the chrysler
> dealer scratching his head if you ever had them look at it.

No doubt you're right about reversing power and ground to convert one
system to the other, but your detailed descriptions are all
kitty-wampus. Oh - and if you did convert one to the other, all the LED
indicators in the switch panels would no longer work (unless you went in
and manually reversed their polarities).

I wondered when reading your first post why you even posted the
(mis)information. Why not use a schematic? Like I said: A picture is
worth a kilo-word. Post a link to a schematic of an example of your
"normally hot" system. I think you'll find some gross inaccuracies in
your verbal descriptions.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

the power window circuit is a mux system and cutting and splicing wires will short
out the door modules

Daniel Armstrong wrote:

> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Finally - that is correct. But that contradicts what you said in your
> > very first paragraph about a wire being switched to ground to operate a
> > motor. In a given system (except when the lock is on), either power is
> > applied all the time to both wires (as you started out saying), and the
> > motor operates when one wire or the other is grounded, *or*, as is the
> > case in my LH car, and probably most other Chryslers, both wires are
> > grounded, and the motor operates when power is applied to one or the other
> > wire. The first part of your post describes the first way. Your last
> > paragraph is based on the second way. A given system has to be one way or
> > the other all the way thru.
> >
> > If you'd like to see a real schematic to check it out, see this (a picture
> > is worth a kilo-word):
> > http://public.fotki.com/peva/concord.../71541402.html
> >
> > Bill Putney
> > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
> > with the letter 'x')
>
> I said in the final paragraph that that only applied when locked AKA when
> the window lock button is pressed. Anyway that is basically how it works.
> In a normally hot system like I posted when the driver presses the window
> lock button all leads to the other doors are switched from hot to ground.
> In a normally grounded system like in your LH when the driver presses the
> window lock button all the leads to the other doors are switched from ground
> to hot. The only difference between the systems is that in one the fifth
> lead to the slave switches is always grounded and in the other the fifth
> lead is always hot. In fact you could convert the LH to the other system by
> cutting the hot wire off of and grounding the fifth wire on all of the slave
> switches and then reversing the hot and ground leads on the master switch.
> The windows would then probably go up when you pressed down and vise versa
> but it would still work. It would also have the mechanic at the chrysler
> dealer scratching his head if you ever had them look at it.

philthy wrote:
> the power window circuit is a mux system and cutting and splicing wires will short
> out the door modules

I don't know what vehilce you're referring to, but in the LH car, the
power window circuits are not mux'ed. See that schematic I linked earlier.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

I am sorry if I offended you and no I don't have a schematic. The operation
I posted was from my personal experience working on vehicles with various
electrical problems such as dying door switches and broken wires at the flex
point on the door jamb boot.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Bill Putney wrote:

> philthy wrote:

>> the power window circuit is a mux system and cutting and splicing wires
>> will short out the door modules
>
> I don't know what vehilce you're referring to, but in the LH car, the
> power window circuits are not mux'ed. See that schematic I linked
> earlier.

Same ol' Philthy, full of laughs...

Daniel Armstrong wrote:
> I am sorry if I offended you and no I don't have a schematic. The operation
> I posted was from my personal experience working on vehicles with various
> electrical problems such as dying door switches and broken wires at the flex
> point on the door jamb boot.

No problem. The starting point for such discussions should be an
accurate schematic. That usually obviates misinformation and many
questions.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')