fwd **** propagation

On 08/25/2013 02:22 PM, T0m $herman wrote:
> On 8/25/2013 12:08 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> well i wouldn't recommend any post-80's bmw to anyone - unless they're a
>> total retard susceptible to advertising and deserve to be separated from
>> as much money as possible to punish them for their stooooopidity.
>
> Two or four wheels? The BMW C600 and C650 are competitively priced, and
> being for the most part KYMCO made assemblies shipped to Germany for
> final assembly, should be mechanically reliable - Taiwanese quality can
> be very good these days.
>

fair point.


--
fact check required

>
>
> he said flogging a dead horse. the fact is, crappy as you allege it to
>
> be, it's /still/ better then your over-priced, under preforming,
>
> unreliable p.o.s. which is precisely why i cited it and not anything else.
>

Hmm, an under performing bmw
what a concept


> >>> So don't buy your brake pads from the dealer (but they actually have
>
> >>> great feel and lots of friction, even if they're dusty as hell.) I
>
> >>> didn't.
>
> >>
>
> >> did i read that right???? you're actually trying to justify oem rip-off
>
> >> with an excuse about after-market???? wow.
>
> >
>
> > OEM BMW pads aren't really a rip off, they're actually less expensive
>
> > than e.g. Akebono, Hawk, etc.
>
>
>
> oh yeah, that's right - they just sting you on the disks, so "cheap"
>
> pads are ok!!!
>

Soo, what's the problem with running aftermarket slotted rotors
with oem bmw pads?

I think I'll go with the stock $100/set front pads on my A4
once I wear out the $33 aftermarket set.

>
> omg, do i /really/ have to indicate which axle as well???? holy carp.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Also, at least the E92 uses a two stage sensor so the car's computer can
>
> > more accurately warn the driver how many miles are remaining until
>
> > replacement is required, at least assuming that driving style stays
>
> > consistent.
>
>
>
> isn't that cute.
>

tall ya what. My A4 has wear sensors only on front pads
and when I felt something went south (dat was the front disks and pads)
I could have used an indication what was it.
So I preemptively bought a set of rear pads (wink, wink)
which turned out to be the wrong guess ;-)

So wear sensors on the rear won't hurt though it's hardly a must have.

>
> >
>
> > I am unaware of any BMW vehicle that uses only one brake wear sensor.
>
>
>
> i'm unaware of any modern bmw owner not myopically invested in trying to
>
> justify their financial servitude to in the ultimate marketing machine.
>

well, he clearly stated he hates F30.
So there are some chinks in your bamboo armor Jim.

> >> well i wouldn't recommend any post-80's bmw to anyone - unless they're a
>
> >> total retard susceptible to advertising and deserve to be separated from
>
> >> as much money as possible to punish them for their stooooopidity. in
>
> >> which case, i hope you and your bmw are very happy together.
>
> >
>
> > We are.
>
>
>
> appropriately.
>

I think E34/E36s were from about 80s and are probably
the best cars in my virtual books of hardware I never got to ride :-]

>
>
> i don't hate the vehicle, i just happen to know their technical
>
> background. but i do hate their marketing drivel. or more accurately,
>
> why some idiots buy into it - it's a total appeal to emotion with no
>
> technical justification whatsoever.
>

Well, Jim, not everyone likes the accoustic [dis]comforts of japanese
tin cans. Especially outfitted with fart cans meant to justify
total lack of grunt. And once you do tend to the accoustic
comforts say on G35/G37 (is there a lexus that tries hard
to compete with the lectric steering ****mobile from germany, is there really?)
the price all of a sudden level up quickly.

[skipped insults]

After having owned two subarus and a mazda I know precisely what I;m
paying premium over in teutonmobile: that's not driving a bucket of rattling bolts that a typical japmobile is. A reliable bucket of bolts, sure,
but, nevertheless, that gets boring in a decade or quicker.

>
>
>
> >
>
> > Of course, I loved my old E28 as well so I pretty much knew what I was
>
> > getting into.
>
>
>
> yeah, you didn't have to put on a new set of emperor-clothing goggles!
>
>
according to my calculations E28 is about from the 70s.
You stated that bmw produced ****mobiles from 1980 onwards, no?

>
>
> 2. gullibility. the ultimate marketing machine convinces idiots that
>
> their vehicular emperor isn't stark freakin' naked with his balls
>
> flapping in the breeze.
>
>
>
> i find #2 utterly amazing. i find vehement defense of same to be even
>
> more so, particularly when in the fable, all it takes is one small boy
>
> to point out the truth. but with bmw, because the deceived have /paid/
>
> to be deceived, there's no way they're seeing anything other than what
>
> they paid for. quite brilliant actually, in a sick twisted kind of way.
>
>
Me thinks an average buyer of teuton rigs had driven their share of
jap tin cans to know precisely what they are plonking $30k+ into.

That and most likely cross shopped to infinity to check out G37
in case they do not have 7mm hex allen snapon bits in their toolbox
(or don't have/need a toolbox altogether :^)

Mind you in G37 awd can't be had with a stick. (And that is mostly
true for the japs "luxury" -> go find one with a stick.
Does G37 manual even have a comparable shifting feel (drivetrail layout permitting) to the teutons?

I'd checkout z370 if two doors worked in my case and I had that much cash
laying around set aside for my transportation needs and wants.
But, alas, 2 doors won't cut it for me. And living in snowbelt pure
rwd layout won't cut it either.

So given >$30k are laying around and bmw dealers plentiful (hello you,
silly valley) I'd vote with $$$ for 325xi once electric steering issues
get sorted out (if ever).
Skiiiiiiiiiiing!!!! Drifting!!!!!!!!! Fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until then there is audi.
Not even sure if bmw has active diff in any models they offer
to the automotive public.

On 8/25/2013 10:39 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/25/2013 12:47 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 8/25/2013 2:56 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 08/25/2013 11:01 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/2013 1:08 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>> On 08/25/2013 09:40 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/2013 12:14 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>> On 08/25/2013 07:54 AM, Nate Nagel blathered:
>>>>>>> <snip usual irrelevance>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you "suspect"??? i would merely "suspect" that you're an
>>>>>>> insufferable
>>>>>>> blathering idiot if you didn't insist on proving it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that most Mitsus don't make it to 200K miles as they nickel
>>>>>>>> and dime their owners to death
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> fact-free projected-to-justify-poor-advertisinging-susceptibility
>>>>>>> drivel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really? You're asserting that Mitsus *aren't* significantly less
>>>>>> reliable than any other major Japanese manufacturer? Especially
>>>>>> Subaru,
>>>>>> their direct competition?
>>>>>
>>>>> oh, puhleese, you're just trying to attack some straw man because you
>>>>> have nothing else.to justify your ultimate marketing susceptibility.
>>>>
>>>> Um, I bought it because it's a better car by my criteria. If you
>>>> disagree that's fine, but doesn't explain your irrational hatred of
>>>> everything German, or your odd defense of Mitsubishi, a company
>>>> notorious for unreliable cars and poor customer service.
>>>
>>> he said flogging a dead horse. the fact is, crappy as you allege it to
>>> be, it's /still/ better then your over-priced, under preforming,
>>> unreliable p.o.s. which is precisely why i cited it and not anything
>>> else.
>>>
>>
>> IN YOUR OPINION.
>
> no, it's a fact. the evo out-performs and costs less.

To purchase new, maybe.

A used BMW will need less repairs than a new Mitsu though, so it's
debatable which car actually costs more.

I'd rather stay mobile than have a small performance advantage when the
car is actually running. A BMW cabin is a more pleasant place to be
than a Mitsu one as well.

>
>
>>
>> Ask any automotive writer/critic if he'd rather have a BMW 3er or an
>> Evo, assuming that he has to maintain it with his own money. I'd bet
>> $100 that 9/10 if not 10/10 will pick the BMW. I'd venture that the
>> same would be true of professional mechanics.
>
> in your opinion! [idiot.]
>
> and i wouldn't maintain a bmw with my own money. i'll do it on a paid
> professional basis, but i charge idiot tax rates, just like everyone
> else that has to work on the wretched things. [7mm hex on the caliper
> slider pins??? **** you bmw.]

That's mild in the grand scheme of things, at least that tool comes in
the set. I did a brake job on a friend's SAAB recently, I have a
complete S-K brand set of both internal and external Torx sockets that
you would think would take care of all my Torx needs, but NO! the front
caliper mounts are held onto the spindles with external Torx head bolts
larger than any socket that I had, had to special order the socket from
NAPA to finish the job. Stupid Swedish assholes. ('course it might
have been GM's fault, it was a newer one.)

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - and like bmw /NEVER/ actually [as opposed to suppositionally] do
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>> that's why they use high silica brake pads to make sure disks last
>>>>>>> only one set, not two or three like other manufacturers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So don't buy your brake pads from the dealer (but they actually have
>>>>>> great feel and lots of friction, even if they're dusty as hell.) I
>>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> did i read that right???? you're actually trying to justify oem
>>>>> rip-off
>>>>> with an excuse about after-market???? wow.
>>>>
>>>> OEM BMW pads aren't really a rip off, they're actually less expensive
>>>> than e.g. Akebono, Hawk, etc.
>>>
>>> oh yeah, that's right - they just sting you on the disks, so "cheap"
>>> pads are ok!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>> They're quiet and have great initial bite
>>>> (now whether you like that or not is personal preference; some people
>>>> prefer them, some prefer a more linear feel.) About the only negative
>>>> that everyone agrees on is that they dust like hell. I've heard that
>>>> they actually reduced dusting sometime in 2010 or 2011 but I went with
>>>> Hawks when I replaced mine. I find the Hawks to be perfectly
>>>> acceptable
>>>> and my wheels look much nicer, but I did notice a decided increase in
>>>> pedal effort which some people might find objectionable.
>>>
>>> blather. bull****. totally missing the point.
>>
>>
>> I got your point, you called BMW brake pads a ripoff, and I tried to
>> explain that there were technical tradeoffs between factory BMW pads and
>> good aftermarket pads, and that some people might actually prefer the
>> factory pads, and it all went over your pointy head.
>
> no, you failed to read what i said because you're functionally illiterate.
>
> "high silica brake pads to make sure disks last only one set"
>
> i'm not singling out the pads, i'm talking about the ridiculously
> [needlessly] obligatory high cost of the brakes /and/ disks.

Looking at the service records for my car it was on its second set of
brake pads before I bought it, with no record of the rotors having been
replaced. So that's not true either. I did replace the rotors when I
did the brakes because after the second set of pads the fronts were
under the limit and the rears were close enough that I couldn't turn them.

>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that's why
>>>>>>> their radiators burst.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never had that happen. even on one with >200K miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> so you got lucky. once. or you p.o.s. had already had it replaced.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that's why they only use a wear indicator on one
>>>>>>> brake pad of one wheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> not even true.
>>>>>
>>>>> absolutely it's true - check your facts. clearly you don't know your
>>>>> own freakin' vehicle!
>>>>
>>>> I have very recently replaced brake pads on both an e36 and an e92.
>>>> Both
>>>> used two wear sensors, one on the LF and one on the RR.
>>>
>>> omg, do i /really/ have to indicate which axle as well???? holy carp.
>>>
>>
>> If you're going to be an ass, the very least you could do is speak
>> accurately.
>
> i'm so sorry nate - your pointless illiterate blather fogs my brain.
>

IKYABWAI. Say what you mean and mean what you say and stop twisting and
turning.

>
>>
>> In any case, do you really need more than two sensors? Do you need any
>> at all, especially when it's trivial to simply look through the ****ing
>> wheels at the pads every now and again?
>
> in which case you don't need any sensors at all, idiot.
>
> honda make do with screech clips. much cheaper, just as if not more
> effective, and deployed on all wheels. which is a significant point
> both you and bmw just don't get - poor maintenance means uneven wear -
> so if you're going to bother with sensors, use them in a way that's
> logically consistent.

"Poor maintenance" and "BMW" don't go together well. Probably owners
who don't know or care how to properly maintain a car are the reason for
BMW's reputation as an expensive car... once something actually fails,
if it's not addressed quickly, it tends to snowball into other expensive
repairs.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, at least the E92 uses a two stage sensor so the car's computer
>>>> can
>>>> more accurately warn the driver how many miles are remaining until
>>>> replacement is required, at least assuming that driving style stays
>>>> consistent.
>>>
>>> isn't that cute.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am unaware of any BMW vehicle that uses only one brake wear sensor.
>>>
>>> i'm unaware of any modern bmw owner not myopically invested in trying to
>>> justify their financial servitude to in the ultimate marketing machine.
>>
>>
>> Financial servitude? You can get a lease return 3er for less than a new
>> Camry.
>
> you're comparing used with new??? your brain is really warped.

Only people with way more disposable income than I buy new BMWs. Also I
think it's a fair comparison as they're comparable size/class cars, and
likely a lease return BMW and a new Camry will have similar remaining
lifespans.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> long boring etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but why do i bother - you're completely bought in to the world's
>>>>>>> ultimate marketing campaign and no factual reality could ever enter
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> already ultimately challenged cranium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dunno, probably because you never let facts get in the way of a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> rant.
>>>>>
>>>>> uh, that would be you actually.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do I think BMWs are perfect? Of course not, few cars even get
>>>>>> close to
>>>>>> perfection. But I like them, and that's what matters to me. Would I
>>>>>> recommend one to someone who isn't mechanically inclined and
>>>>>> considers a
>>>>>> little extra work invested to be worth it for a good driving
>>>>>> experience?
>>>>>> No. Just like I wouldn't recommend any Mitsu other than an Eclipse
>>>>>> to... anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> well i wouldn't recommend any post-80's bmw to anyone - unless
>>>>> they're a
>>>>> total retard susceptible to advertising and deserve to be separated
>>>>> from
>>>>> as much money as possible to punish them for their stooooopidity. in
>>>>> which case, i hope you and your bmw are very happy together.
>>>>
>>>> We are.
>>>
>>> appropriately.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have replaced one fuel injector and one set of brakes since I
>>>> got it; everything else that I've done to it has been adding
>>>> accessories
>>>> or performance goodies. It's a great car to drive,
>>>
>>> yeah, coming off your impala or jeep, it sure is!
>>>
>>
>> Especially coming off an Impala, what an awful car!
>
> WHOOOOOSH!
>

You still seem to think that a BMW isn't a legitimately good driving
car. I think you should drive one before commenting.

>
>>
>>>
>>>> your hatred of it
>>>> notwithstanding.
>>>
>>> i don't hate the vehicle, i just happen to know their technical
>>> background. but i do hate their marketing drivel. or more accurately,
>>> why some idiots buy into it - it's a total appeal to emotion with no
>>> technical justification whatsoever.
>>
>> Balls, just drive one. Or even read a road test of one.
>
> uh, i have idiot. and i'm comparing it with other than impala or jeep
> which you apparently aren't qualified to do.

Clearly you haven't, or are you implying that BMW is bribing the world's
entire automotive press?

>
>
>> There's a
>> reason that it is always rated at the top of the small sedan class!
>> (although sadly, I wouldn't call them particularly "small" anymore even
>> though they are still classified as subcompacts by the EPA)
>
> actually, there are two reasons.
>
> 1. "money", otherwise known as "lobbying". it works just like you can
> get a fundamental vehicle stability issue blamed on a vehicle's tires if
> you pay enough..
>
> 2. gullibility. the ultimate marketing machine convinces idiots that
> their vehicular emperor isn't stark freakin' naked with his balls
> flapping in the breeze.
>
> i find #2 utterly amazing. i find vehement defense of same to be even
> more so, particularly when in the fable, all it takes is one small boy
> to point out the truth. but with bmw, because the deceived have /paid/
> to be deceived, there's no way they're seeing anything other than what
> they paid for. quite brilliant actually, in a sick twisted kind of way.
>

Look, I'm not saying that a BMW is the most technically sophisticated
vehicle out there. If it were, it'd cost twice as much as it already
does. But you clearly hate it primarily as I gather because you want to
see a SLA front suspension on a "performance" car. You know what? I
agree with you. but the truth is that even with the "inferior"
McPherson struts, both BMW and Porsche have managed to make some
legitimately good handling cars that both ride and handle very well.
and that's what counts - results, not what it looks like on paper.

nate

On 8/25/2013 10:42 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/25/2013 04:34 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 8/25/2013 7:15 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ask any automotive writer/critic if he'd rather have a BMW 3er or an
>>>> Evo, assuming that he has to maintain it with his own money. I'd bet
>>>> $100 that 9/10 if not 10/10 will pick the BMW. I'd venture that the
>>>> same
>>>> would be true of professional mechanics.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ummmmm. No. I don't know any tech that would rather maintain a BMW
>>> than a Mitsubishi, let alone with his own money.
>>>
>>> GW
>>
>> *shrug*
>
> so give the guy his $100 then asshole.

Why? he just said he didn't know any tech. He might not know any techs
at all. It's an opinion that he expressed, not a survey.

>
>
>> the mechanic that I tend to take everything I don't want to deal
>> with myself (independent shop owner, not a dealer wrench) drives an E34
>> most days.
>
> because he can afford to have someone else do it after charging you
> idiot tax? [rhetorical]
>

Actually he makes very little money off of me. in the last two years I
think he's done two A/C services and a couple state safety and emissions
inspections for me, and he also mounted and balanced my winter tires. I
did give him a set of aftermarket BMW wheels though that I had left over
from a Craigslist deal.

Because he's a good wrench I recommend him to all my local friends when
they ask me where to take their car and I don't feel like/don't have
time to work on their stuff myself.

nate

On 8/26/2013 5:56 AM, wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2. gullibility. the ultimate marketing machine convinces idiots that
>>
>> their vehicular emperor isn't stark freakin' naked with his balls
>>
>> flapping in the breeze.
>>
>>
>>
>> i find #2 utterly amazing. i find vehement defense of same to be even
>>
>> more so, particularly when in the fable, all it takes is one small boy
>>
>> to point out the truth. but with bmw, because the deceived have /paid/
>>
>> to be deceived, there's no way they're seeing anything other than what
>>
>> they paid for. quite brilliant actually, in a sick twisted kind of way.
>>
>>
> Me thinks an average buyer of teuton rigs had driven their share of
> jap tin cans to know precisely what they are plonking $30k+ into.
>
> That and most likely cross shopped to infinity to check out G37
> in case they do not have 7mm hex allen snapon bits in their toolbox
> (or don't have/need a toolbox altogether :^)
>
> Mind you in G37 awd can't be had with a stick. (And that is mostly
> true for the japs "luxury" -> go find one with a stick.
> Does G37 manual even have a comparable shifting feel (drivetrail layout permitting) to the teutons?

I don't know not having driven one, but the older G35 was a legitimately
nice car. And actually the shift feel in the E9x 335i manual is not the
greatest, to be perfectly fair. 1-2 is actually kind of notchy when
cold, even with fresh factory synthetic gear oil in the box. Maybe next
time I'll try Red Line as I've had good luck with it in the past in
everything in which I've used it. (I've lost count of how many cars,
both stick and automatic, I've changed to Red Line lubricants, and it
has improved shift feel in every stickshift and maintained or improved
shift quality in both of the two automatics in which I've used it.)
Also in the interest of fairness, BMW ****es me off in that they ASSume
that we Americans don't want stickshifts - well that's probably true,
but let us have the ability to order one if we want. You can get an AWD
BMW wagon, but you can't get a 335i wagon, nor can you get a wagon with
a stickshift even if you try to order it. (the latter may or may not be
true for any given year; every now and then they'll let us have the
option and then take it away again a year later.) I'd love to have a
335i xDrive wagon with a 6-speed, but that is sadly just not an
available combination, although I suppose if one had a wrecked E90 335i
xDrive sedan and a E91 wagon body laying around, one could do a Vulcan
car meld if one were so inclined.

>
> I'd checkout z370 if two doors worked in my case and I had that much cash
> laying around set aside for my transportation needs and wants.
> But, alas, 2 doors won't cut it for me. And living in snowbelt pure
> rwd layout won't cut it either.
>
> So given >$30k are laying around and bmw dealers plentiful (hello you,
> silly valley) I'd vote with $$$ for 325xi once electric steering issues
> get sorted out (if ever).
> Skiiiiiiiiiiing!!!! Drifting!!!!!!!!! Fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Until then there is audi.
> Not even sure if bmw has active diff in any models they offer
> to the automotive public.
>

The xdrive (AWD) models use a wet clutch in the xfer case for torque
split modulation. Unfortunately at least in the 335i they use traction
control through the brakes instead of a true LSD in the rear to limit
side-side slip. A Quaife is a popular retrofit.

nate

On 8/26/2013 8:56 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> "Poor maintenance" and "BMW" don't go together well. Probably owners
> who don't know or care how to properly maintain a car are the reason for
> BMW's reputation as an expensive car... once something actually fails,
> if it's not addressed quickly, it tends to snowball into other expensive
> repairs.

OK, not a car, but a distressing number of BMW R-series have had
drive-shaft failures - I suspect excessive lash (which is not only
annoying, but a real hindrance on a bike).

--
T0m $herm@n

On Monday, August 26, 2013 11:07:42 AM UTC+8, T0m $herman wrote:
> The Mini and the first generation Civic are the same basic concept -
>
> note that eventually everyone followed suit, with compact, RWD economy
>
> cars becoming practically extinct within a decade.
>

The Smart is a compact RWD, but also rear-engine.
So I suppose it kind of like a FWD thats arse-about-tit.

On Monday, August 26, 2013 9:56:06 PM UTC+8, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>
> Look, I'm not saying that a BMW is the most technically sophisticated
>
> vehicle out there. If it were, it'd cost twice as much as it already
>
> does. But you clearly hate it primarily as I gather because you want to
>
> see a SLA front suspension on a "performance" car. You know what? I
>
> agree with you. but the truth is that even with the "inferior"
>
> McPherson struts, both BMW and Porsche have managed to make some
>
> legitimately good handling cars that both ride and handle very well.
>
> and that's what counts - results, not what it looks like on paper.
>
>
Holden Commodores (RWD) also use McPherson, and they handle very well for
a large sedan.

On 8/27/2013 9:02 AM, wrote:
> On Monday, August 26, 2013 9:56:06 PM UTC+8, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Look, I'm not saying that a BMW is the most technically sophisticated
>>
>> vehicle out there. If it were, it'd cost twice as much as it already
>>
>> does. But you clearly hate it primarily as I gather because you want to
>>
>> see a SLA front suspension on a "performance" car. You know what? I
>>
>> agree with you. but the truth is that even with the "inferior"
>>
>> McPherson struts, both BMW and Porsche have managed to make some
>>
>> legitimately good handling cars that both ride and handle very well.
>>
>> and that's what counts - results, not what it looks like on paper.
>>
>>
> Holden Commodores (RWD) also use McPherson, and they handle very well for
> a large sedan.
>

Oh, now you've done it. We actually got the Monaro over here badged as
a Pontiac GTO, and undoubtedly that will meet with JB's scorn as he
doesn't consider anything less than a Lotus to have acceptable handling
apparently, never mind that real people might want to carry at least
four up in their car and maybe throw some luggage in the trunk.

Just don't mention "Chapman Struts" otherwise his world will crumble.

nate