Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to belined up?

Blue,

Geez, did you read the articles that you cited? " In the end, the markers
have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed." And
"The only way to accurately match-mount a tire to a wheel is to actually
measure tire and wheel runout. The end goal remains the same: to align the
tire's high point to the wheel's low point." Forget the dots. Neither
article supports their use.
If match mounting is important to you you'll need to find a shop that can
do it.

Dave M.

blue bmw > wrote in :

> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:
>
>> If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!
>
> The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
> they won't do it.
>
> Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
> and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
> spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
> (BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
> spec out a rotation), etc.
>
> Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
> may not know how.
>
> Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
> and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
> seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
> valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.
>
> So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
> tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
> 150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
> 50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).
>
> They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.
>
> Isn't that what this group is all about?
>
Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?
A: The porcupine has the pricks on the *outside*.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:58:35 +0000 (UTC), "Angel A."
> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
>
>>>Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?
>> There is no such requirement.
>
>Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
>http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304
>
>"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tire’s radial runout
> high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheel’s
> radial runout low point."
>
>Tire Rack article on match mounting:
>http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17
>
>"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
> tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
> "low point."

Okay, I can see where the auto manufacturers "require" their tire and
rim manufacturers to provide some balance points. But that's not a
"law." That's what I meant to say.
But new factory rims and tires and aftermarket tires on old rims are
different animals.
Wasting a minute of "serious" thought on those dots is a waste of
time. To me anyway. I don't mount my own tires or balance them.
You're going to get the balancing the shop gives you.
If you're concerned about weight or dot cosmetics you can make that
known to the shop. Maybe it will make a difference in cosmetics, but
in the end what matters is that the wheel is balanced.
You can find out if the shop pays attention to the dots.
But the guy you talk to might not be doing the balancing.
I never stand over a worker's shoulder telling him how to do his job.
If he doesn't balance a tire correctly, I bring it back.
In nearly every case I don't have to. A few years ago I had new
tires put on my car and thought they were balanced right.
A couple months later I was in Tennessee where the limit is 75, and it
was shaking at 77. Took it back and they rebalanced and it was fine
at any speed there after. Yeah, it was irritating, but that's life.
Nobody's perfect.
I recently bought a 2003 Impala with good rubber, and it was shaking
at speed when I got it. Got the wheels balanced at the same shop, and
made sure I did a high speed run right after, because I was going on a
road trip. Vibrations were gone, and it's been fine since.
I never looked at the weights or dots. If somebody wants to talk
about them, fine with me.
Just trying to save the BMW guy some time.
Here's a Hunter 9700 demo. Kinda boring unless you dig it.
http://www.hunter.com/videos/index.cfm?cat=3

On 7/15/2013 9:20 AM, blue bmw wrote:

....[big snip]...


> Actually, for all but aluminum rims, the algorithm is explained in the
> following articles I read before posting to this newsgroup:

....[snip]...

And, the biggest thing (unless you're racing or have some other very
unusual issue) is the final thing Bridgestone says in their pamphlet --

> And the final result?
> Matching the dots is no substitute for balancing tire and
> wheel assemblies. What it does, however, is give you the
> best start, so you are more likely to use less total weight to
> bring an assembly into balance.

All in all, it'll never be anything you'll ever be able to tell whether
was or wasn't used in all likelihood.

IOW, "tempest in teapot", basically, for average passenger car and tire
and driving.

--

blue bmw > wrote in :

> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:34:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:
>
>> Those dots are a /starting point only/.
>
> Hi Tegger,
> That's the whole point!
>
> The tire installer doesn't even START installing tires correctly
> (unless we tell them how to mount our tires properly!).



Tire installers can't rely solely on the paint marks. Sometimes you're
mounting used tires, or swapping snows and summer tires for a customer who
has only one set of wheels. Dots can disappear after a couple of winters.

In those cases you need to know the basics of mounting and of how to get
the tire to spin true on the rim. In such cases, you need to guess at
first, then correct as needed until the tire spins true.


>
> The result, from their invariably bad starting point, is that more
> weight is eventually added than was needed,



More weight does not correct for poor mounting. If vibration doesn't happen
immediately, it will occur once the the tread wears unevenly from the poor
mounting, no matter how much weight you stuck on there.



> and that's bad from
> various points of view, especially when/if one of those weights
> subsequently falls off.
>
> A) The wheel is *really* out of balance by then




Not out-of-balance, but out-of round. Getting it round /before/ you balance
is the point. You can stuff the rim full of weights, but you're only
(maybe) masking, not curing. See my paragraph above.

If in doubt go to Costco. At least their installers have some official
training from the tire companies.


--
Tegger

On 07/15/2013 01:01 PM, David L. Martel wrote:
> Blue,
>
> Geez, did you read the articles that you cited? " In the end, the markers
> have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed." And
> "The only way to accurately match-mount a tire to a wheel is to actually
> measure tire and wheel runout. The end goal remains the same: to align the
> tire's high point to the wheel's low point." Forget the dots. Neither
> article supports their use.
> If match mounting is important to you you'll need to find a shop that can
> do it.
>
> Dave M.
>
>

Theoretically the dots have meaning, but I do agree with two other
important points mentioned in this thread.

1) On a used wheel the high spot and low spot probably aren't where they
were when the wheel was made, unless you live on a billiards table. So
while the dots on the tire may mean something, the marks on the wheel
are questionable, and it is not necessarily warranted to criticize a
tire guy for giving you your car back with the dots in a different place
than the procedure says they should be. Doubly so if the wheels have
ever been reconditioned.

2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to patronize
a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy using it knows
how to use it properly.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel > wrote in
:


>
> 2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to
> patronize a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy
> using it knows how to use it properly.
>


The best way to achieve a vibration-free ride is to patronize a shop that
knows how to mount a tire that spins true BEFORE anythng else is done.

Road-force equipment is nice to have, but is far from essential.


--
Tegger

On 07/15/2013 02:34 PM, Tegger wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>
>> 2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to
>> patronize a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy
>> using it knows how to use it properly.
>>
>
>
> The best way to achieve a vibration-free ride is to patronize a shop that
> knows how to mount a tire that spins true BEFORE anythng else is done.
>
> Road-force equipment is nice to have, but is far from essential.
>


I'd agree with that too. And the tire guy should be checking that the
rim spins true without hops or lateral runout before even thinking about
mounting the tire, especially if the customer complains about a
vibration with the old tires. Unfortunately, as I have found, you can't
trust that that will happen, you have to either know a good guy or get a
recommendation for one.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel > wrote in
:

> you have to either know a good guy
> or get a recommendation for one.
>


Costco. Oddly enough.


--
Tegger

ChairMan wrote:
> blue > wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700,
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know
>>> what to do!!!
> .
>>
>> Isn't that what this group is all about?
>
>
> No, this group is about HOME repair, not car repair or tires
>

mounting his tires at home is an excellent idea. Most shops don't
respond well to being instructed as to how to perform their tasks,
regardless of who is right.

GW