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#11
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Clutch bolts and locktite
Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 18:17:06 GMT, rbowman wrote: > >> Are you supporting the engine? > > OH oh.... supporting the engine? > I could. I have plenty of floor jacks. > > It's RWD though. > The vehicle is on four jack stands (two on the rear axle and two on front > frame points just inside the wheels). > > I appreciate your question, and my answer is definitely "no", I am not > supporting the engine. > > It didn't occur to me to support the engine so I have to ask why would that > help? > > (I'm not at all against the idea - I just don't understand how it can > help?) > > How would I support the engine so that it would help? Oh my. You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks, wires get ripped off, etc. The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier. You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft. So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch? If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it. You will need a clutch plate centering tool. Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers. |
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#12
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 07/22/2018 08:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 18:17:06 GMT, rbowman wrote: > >> Are you supporting the engine? > > OH oh.... supporting the engine? > I could. I have plenty of floor jacks. > > It's RWD though. > The vehicle is on four jack stands (two on the rear axle and two on front > frame points just inside the wheels). > > I appreciate your question, and my answer is definitely "no", I am not > supporting the engine. > > It didn't occur to me to support the engine so I have to ask why would that > help? > > (I'm not at all against the idea - I just don't understand how it can > help?) > > How would I support the engine so that it would help? > You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? Do the engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts play a part? In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate downward and binding the transmission? I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove. |
#13
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 07/22/2018 11:29 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it. Good advice. I've replaced two throwout bearings on my F150. I did the clutch and pressure plate too the second time around even though both were serviceable. The latest throwout bearing is composite, not cast iron, and hopefully will last. For the record, it wasn't the bearing itself but the body binding on the transmission. |
#14
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Clutch bolts and locktite
Wade Garrett posted for all of us...
> > On 7/22/18 4:10 AM, Arlen Holder wrote: > > Which is best for dropping the transmission? > > > > Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount? > > * Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg > > * Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg > > * Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg > > > > Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?) > > http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg > > > If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade... I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker, tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the insults and diversions will now start. -- Tekkie |
#15
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 7/22/2018 6:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/22/2018 03:20 PM, Terry Coombs wrote: >> >> * But damn sure on the nut that holds the compensator sprocket to the >> crankshaft on your Harley ... > > Luckily I haven't had to go there yet. I didn't replace the clutch > throwout bearing a few years ago but that's no big deal. > > Grant me the knowledge to put LocTite on the things shouldn't come > apart, Never-Seez on the things that should, and the wisdom to know > the difference. Been there more than once on more than one bike . NOBODY puts a wrench on my bike but me ... the 1990 Ultra recently got a total tranny rebuild and new pistons/rings/valve tappets/top end gaskets plus a new primary chain and comp sprocket set . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety . Get off my lawn ! |
#16
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 22 Jul 2018 22:29:00 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> Oh my. > > You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil > pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers > or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen > like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks, > wires get ripped off, etc. > The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier. > You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without > removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off > the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft. > So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch? > If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it. > You will need a clutch plate centering tool. > Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts > that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get > torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers. To answer your question, I am now supporting the engine but I don't think it needed to be supported since nobody else does that that I could figure out. With the jack on the engine and the transmission out, I can move the engine about 1/2 inch or even less, so that might be helpful when lining it up for the reassembly though. The cross member and the sway bar were removed, and I'm glad it did that because you need as much room as possible the first time you do it. The Aisin clutch kit from Rockauto came with five pieces: a. Clutch plate b. Diaphragm c. Pilot bearing d. Throwout bearing e. Alignment tool I am replacing the clutch where it was worn to the rivets. I'm kind of stuck now on whether to remove the flywheel and get a new one or have it machined (and replace the oil seal behind it) or just keep it where it is (the bolts are on really tightly and I can't tell if it needs to be machined or not). <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg> |
#17
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:
> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the first time you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big. > Do the > engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts > play a part? The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align things on the replacement. > In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate > downward and binding the transmission? The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the bracket, even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault. I couldn't find a DIY that explained this as everyone has different exhaust depending on federal versus cali and the engine most people have is different. <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9617515sticking01.jpg> > I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does > the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the > support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove. I have a jack under the engine now, but it's not needed for the engine. It may be needed for adjusting angles for reassembly as the old diaphragm (before I took it off the engine) seems off kilter when looking head (for some reason). <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2755957sticking03.jpg> While I can see the shift fork and throwout bearing in the bell housing <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2978407sticking02.jpg> I haven't been able to see the pilot bearing or the rear oil seal. Where is the pilot bearing? Is it under the throwout bearing? Is the oil seal behind the flywheel? I'm not sure if I can get that flywheel off as those bolts are tight and my half-inch sockets are all only six point where you have to have 12 point: <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7699843sticking07.jpg> How important do you think the flywheel machining or replacement is? <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg> |
#18
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Clutch bolts and locktite
Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote: > >> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? > > Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the first time > you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big. > >> Do the >> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts >> play a part? > > The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now > have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align things > on the replacement. > >> In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate >> downward and binding the transmission? > > The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the > exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the bracket, > even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell > housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault. > I couldn't find a DIY that explained this as everyone has different exhaust > depending on federal versus cali and the engine most people have is > different. > <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9617515sticking01.jpg> > >> I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does >> the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the >> support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove. > > I have a jack under the engine now, but it's not needed for the engine. > It may be needed for adjusting angles for reassembly as the old diaphragm > (before I took it off the engine) seems off kilter when looking head (for > some reason). > <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2755957sticking03.jpg> > > While I can see the shift fork and throwout bearing in the bell housing > <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2978407sticking02.jpg> > > I haven't been able to see the pilot bearing or the rear oil seal. > > Where is the pilot bearing? Is it under the throwout bearing? > Is the oil seal behind the flywheel? > > I'm not sure if I can get that flywheel off as those bolts are tight and my > half-inch sockets are all only six point where you have to have 12 point: > <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7699843sticking07.jpg> > > How important do you think the flywheel machining or replacement is? > <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg> > The pilot bearing is just a bushing in the end of the crank or flywheel. The tip (about 1" or less) of the transmission's input shaft rests in this bushing to support it from flexing. Visible after you remove transmission and clutch plate and pressure plate. You'll need to use a suitable puller attached to a slide hammer to get it out. If the one already there looks ok, you can skip that and lightly grease it before you install the new clutch. If it is badly worn out, the front bearings in your tranny may be gone too. Rear oil seal is a little more trouble. Need to remove the oil pan and maybe even the rear crank main bearing. Again, if its not leaking, leave it for the next overhaul. Always replace the pressure plate and disc and the throwout bearing. Often, if the friction plate hasn't worn down to where the rivets have badly eaten up the flywheel, you don't need a new or regrind on the flywheel. If the scoring or grooves are small, the new clutch plate will wear in and work fine, although it will have slightly less lifetime since the grooving takes up a tiny bit of it's thickness during break in. A clutch is exactly the same type mechanism as a brake disk and rotor, or brake shoes and drums. Use your experience there to guide you. Judging when something must be replaced or reground is largely a matter of experience, so you'll just have to go from there and learn from any mistakes. There are no magic solutions. Good luck. |
#19
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 7/23/18 2:40 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
> Wade Garrett posted for all of us... > > >> >> On 7/22/18 4:10 AM, Arlen Holder wrote: >>> Which is best for dropping the transmission? >>> >>> Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount? >>> * Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg >>> * Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg >>> * Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg >>> >>> Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?) >>> http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg >>> >> If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade... > > I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker, > tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under > one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the > insults and diversions will now start. > Yeah, he was offended by what I said and took a shot at me in another newsgroup over it. I was really just trying to help the guy out. Asking those rookie questions before starting the major repair he was contemplating, I had visions of him mangling his hand, crushing his fingers, or a heavy overhead assembly slipping as he tried to remove it and dropping down onto him cracking his skull or crushing his chest. When he sees this post- he'll probably go apoplectic! -- If it is not right, do not do it; if it is not true, do not say it. - Marcus Aurelius |
#20
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Clutch bolts and locktite
On 7/23/2018 5:44 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Arlen Holder wrote: >> On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote: >> >>> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? >> >> Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the >> first time >> you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big. >> >>> Â* Do the >>> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission >>> mounts >>> play a part? >> >> The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now >> have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align >> things >> on the replacement. >> >>> In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate >>> downward and binding the transmission? >> >> The problem was stupid. Really stupid. I am embarrassed. I removed the >> exhaust bracket bolts (two of them) but I didnt' realize that the >> bracket, >> even when not connected to the bell housing, was in the way of the bell >> housing moving backward. I'm an idiot. It was all my fault. >> I couldn't find a DIY that explained this as everyone has different >> exhaust >> depending on federal versus cali and the engine most people have is >> different. >> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9617515sticking01.jpg> >> >>> I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does >>> the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the >>> support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove. >> >> I have a jack under the engine now, but it's not needed for the engine. >> It may be needed for adjusting angles for reassembly as the old >> diaphragm >> (before I took it off the engine) seems off kilter when looking head >> (for >> some reason). >> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2755957sticking03.jpg> >> >> While I can see the shift fork and throwout bearing in the bell housing >> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2978407sticking02.jpg> >> >> I haven't been able to see the pilot bearing or the rear oil seal. >> >> Where is the pilot bearing? Is it under the throwout bearing? >> Is the oil seal behind the flywheel? >> >> I'm not sure if I can get that flywheel off as those bolts are tight >> and my >> half-inch sockets are all only six point where you have to have 12 >> point: >> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7699843sticking07.jpg> >> >> How important do you think the flywheel machining or replacement is? >> Â* <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg> >> > > The pilot bearing is just a bushing in the end of the crank or > flywheel. The tip (about 1" or less) of the transmission's input shaft > rests in this bushing to support it from flexing. Visible after you > remove transmission and clutch plate and pressure plate. You'll need > to use a suitable puller attached to a slide hammer to get it out. If > the one already there looks ok, you can skip that and lightly grease > it before you install the new clutch. If it is badly worn out, the > front bearings in your tranny may be gone too. > > Rear oil seal is a little more trouble. Need to remove the oil pan and > maybe even the rear crank main bearing. Again, if its not leaking, > leave it for the next overhaul. > > Always replace the pressure plate and disc and the throwout bearing. > Often, if the friction plate hasn't worn down to where the rivets have > badly eaten up the flywheel, you don't need a new or regrind on the > flywheel. If the scoring or grooves are small, the new clutch plate > will wear in and work fine, although it will have slightly less > lifetime since the grooving takes up a tiny bit of it's thickness > during break in. > > A clutch is exactly the same type mechanism as a brake disk and rotor, > or brake shoes and drums. Use your experience there to guide you. > > Judging when something must be replaced or reground is largely a > matter of experience, so you'll just have to go from there and learn > from any mistakes. There are no magic solutions. > > Good luck. > > > > > > Â* Pilot bushings are most easily removed by filling them with grease , then using a round bar that fits snugly to apply hydraulic pressure - put one end of that round bar in the bushing and smack the other end with a hammer . A big one works better ... the bushing will pop right out . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety . Get off my lawn ! |
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