From OP: Re Previous Oil Question

On 9/8/2013 2:23 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 09/08/2013 10:33 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>> On 9/8/2013 11:36 AM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 09/08/2013 08:47 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>>>> On 9/8/2013 8:41 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>> [...] Additionally, in any engine with any kind of variable valve
>>>>> timing
>>>>> scheme (VTEC, VANOS, etc.) I would also consider running a full
>>>>> synthetic, just to keep the inside of the engine spankin' clean, as at
>>>>> least VANOS solenoids are known to get sticky requiring a decent
>>>>> amount
>>>>> of labor to get to them, clean, reassemble.
>>>>>
>>>> I would not bother on something such as a Honda Civic with VTEC to use
>>>> synthetic - the rest of the car will be worn out before you need to
>>>> open
>>>> up the engine.
>>>>
>>>
>>> i would - i've seen those things badly sludged up, including the vtec
>>> control solenoid. regardless of other alleged benefits, the one thing
>>> you can say for most "synthetics" is that they have good
>>> detergent/additive packages, and minimize the impact of this kind of
>>> abuse.
>>>
>> Your own or one with unknown history? Mine have never had enough
>> combustion "blow-by" to even turn regular oil dark with 5,000 mile oil
>> change intervals, and no noticeable compression loss after 160,000 miles
>> of being run hard (at which time road salt corrosion had taken its toll
>> on the body and undercarriage).
>>
>
> junkyard kalifornistan civics. sure, they may have been 1-miles
> commuters, but a good synthetic is highly sludge resistant, even in that
> regime.
>
> i would also say that cleanliness is essential for good oil consumption
> too. the motor i currently have in my civic used to burn oil like
> crazy. but, on the theory that clean piston rings are free to move and
> thus seal properly, i've been running synthetic/rotella and have seen
> oil consumption steadily drop. now it's down to ~1 quart in 7k miles.
> not perfect, but a lot better than it was!
>
If my previous or current Civics ever used any oil, it was so little
that it could not be seen by the relatively crude measurement of looking
at a dipstick.

--
T0m $herm@n

On 09/08/2013 03:23 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 09/08/2013 10:33 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>> On 9/8/2013 11:36 AM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 09/08/2013 08:47 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>>>> On 9/8/2013 8:41 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>> [...] Additionally, in any engine with any kind of variable valve
>>>>> timing
>>>>> scheme (VTEC, VANOS, etc.) I would also consider running a full
>>>>> synthetic, just to keep the inside of the engine spankin' clean, as at
>>>>> least VANOS solenoids are known to get sticky requiring a decent
>>>>> amount
>>>>> of labor to get to them, clean, reassemble.
>>>>>
>>>> I would not bother on something such as a Honda Civic with VTEC to use
>>>> synthetic - the rest of the car will be worn out before you need to
>>>> open
>>>> up the engine.
>>>>
>>>
>>> i would - i've seen those things badly sludged up, including the vtec
>>> control solenoid. regardless of other alleged benefits, the one thing
>>> you can say for most "synthetics" is that they have good
>>> detergent/additive packages, and minimize the impact of this kind of
>>> abuse.
>>>
>> Your own or one with unknown history? Mine have never had enough
>> combustion "blow-by" to even turn regular oil dark with 5,000 mile oil
>> change intervals, and no noticeable compression loss after 160,000 miles
>> of being run hard (at which time road salt corrosion had taken its toll
>> on the body and undercarriage).
>>
>
> junkyard kalifornistan civics. sure, they may have been 1-miles
> commuters, but a good synthetic is highly sludge resistant, even in that
> regime.
>
> i would also say that cleanliness is essential for good oil consumption
> too. the motor i currently have in my civic used to burn oil like
> crazy. but, on the theory that clean piston rings are free to move and
> thus seal properly, i've been running synthetic/rotella and have seen
> oil consumption steadily drop. now it's down to ~1 quart in 7k miles.
> not perfect, but a lot better than it was!
>

Rotella is damn near magical for older engines that like xW40 oil... I
wouldn't run anything else. You could eat off the top of the head
casting in my Jeep... I know, as I replaced the valve cover gasket last
year. Damn thing looked like new under there. Gave me that warm fuzzy
feeling deep down inside. I'm running a CM (formerly Canton/Mecca) oil
filter on it for extra insurance, just 'cause I'm a geek, but I bet that
simply Rotella (dino or synth, doesn't matter) and regular oil/filter
changes would make the thing last longer than the body.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 9/8/2013 6:02 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 09/08/2013 03:23 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 09/08/2013 10:33 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2013 11:36 AM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 09/08/2013 08:47 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>>>>> On 9/8/2013 8:41 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>> [...] Additionally, in any engine with any kind of variable valve
>>>>>> timing
>>>>>> scheme (VTEC, VANOS, etc.) I would also consider running a full
>>>>>> synthetic, just to keep the inside of the engine spankin' clean,
>>>>>> as at
>>>>>> least VANOS solenoids are known to get sticky requiring a decent
>>>>>> amount
>>>>>> of labor to get to them, clean, reassemble.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I would not bother on something such as a Honda Civic with VTEC to use
>>>>> synthetic - the rest of the car will be worn out before you need to
>>>>> open
>>>>> up the engine.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> i would - i've seen those things badly sludged up, including the vtec
>>>> control solenoid. regardless of other alleged benefits, the one thing
>>>> you can say for most "synthetics" is that they have good
>>>> detergent/additive packages, and minimize the impact of this kind of
>>>> abuse.
>>>>
>>> Your own or one with unknown history? Mine have never had enough
>>> combustion "blow-by" to even turn regular oil dark with 5,000 mile oil
>>> change intervals, and no noticeable compression loss after 160,000 miles
>>> of being run hard (at which time road salt corrosion had taken its toll
>>> on the body and undercarriage).
>>>
>>
>> junkyard kalifornistan civics. sure, they may have been 1-miles
>> commuters, but a good synthetic is highly sludge resistant, even in that
>> regime.
>>
>> i would also say that cleanliness is essential for good oil consumption
>> too. the motor i currently have in my civic used to burn oil like
>> crazy. but, on the theory that clean piston rings are free to move and
>> thus seal properly, i've been running synthetic/rotella and have seen
>> oil consumption steadily drop. now it's down to ~1 quart in 7k miles.
>> not perfect, but a lot better than it was!
>>
>
> Rotella is damn near magical for older engines that like xW40 oil... I
> wouldn't run anything else. You could eat off the top of the head
> casting in my Jeep... I know, as I replaced the valve cover gasket last
> year. Damn thing looked like new under there. Gave me that warm fuzzy
> feeling deep down inside. I'm running a CM (formerly Canton/Mecca) oil
> filter on it for extra insurance, just 'cause I'm a geek, but I bet that
> simply Rotella (dino or synth, doesn't matter) and regular oil/filter
> changes would make the thing last longer than the body.

Well, your bet supports my position. Any car or truck I have will
suffer from so much under-body rust after 15+ years that it will not be
worth repairing, so why worry about the engine? (My 1994 Civic Si,
before being totaled out in a minor accident that left it drivable,
would have required a cutting torch and more than it was worth in
replacement parts to do a suspension alignment.)

The couple of vehicles I do plan to keep long term get synthetic oil,
but motorcycle specific since they run wet clutches, and putting
something like Rotella T6 in would create clutch slippage.

--
T0m $herm@n

On Sunday, September 8, 2013 8:48:25 PM UTC-4, T0m $herman wrote:
> On 9/8/2013 6:02 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> > On 09/08/2013 03:23 PM, jim beam wrote:
>
> >> On 09/08/2013 10:33 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>
> >>> On 9/8/2013 11:36 AM, jim beam wrote:
>
> >>>> On 09/08/2013 08:47 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>
> >>>>> On 9/8/2013 8:41 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> >>>>>> [...] Additionally, in any engine with any kind of variable valve
>
> >>>>>> timing
>
> >>>>>> scheme (VTEC, VANOS, etc.) I would also consider running a full
>
> >>>>>> synthetic, just to keep the inside of the engine spankin' clean,
>
> >>>>>> as at
>
> >>>>>> least VANOS solenoids are known to get sticky requiring a decent
>
> >>>>>> amount
>
> >>>>>> of labor to get to them, clean, reassemble.
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>> I would not bother on something such as a Honda Civic with VTEC to use
>
> >>>>> synthetic - the rest of the car will be worn out before you need to
>
> >>>>> open
>
> >>>>> up the engine.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> i would - i've seen those things badly sludged up, including the vtec
>
> >>>> control solenoid. regardless of other alleged benefits, the one thing
>
> >>>> you can say for most "synthetics" is that they have good
>
> >>>> detergent/additive packages, and minimize the impact of this kind of
>
> >>>> abuse.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>> Your own or one with unknown history? Mine have never had enough
>
> >>> combustion "blow-by" to even turn regular oil dark with 5,000 mile oil
>
> >>> change intervals, and no noticeable compression loss after 160,000 miles
>
> >>> of being run hard (at which time road salt corrosion had taken its toll
>
> >>> on the body and undercarriage).
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >> junkyard kalifornistan civics. sure, they may have been 1-miles
>
> >> commuters, but a good synthetic is highly sludge resistant, even in that
>
> >> regime.
>
> >>
>
> >> i would also say that cleanliness is essential for good oil consumption
>
> >> too. the motor i currently have in my civic used to burn oil like
>
> >> crazy. but, on the theory that clean piston rings are free to move and
>
> >> thus seal properly, i've been running synthetic/rotella and have seen
>
> >> oil consumption steadily drop. now it's down to ~1 quart in 7k miles.
>
> >> not perfect, but a lot better than it was!
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > Rotella is damn near magical for older engines that like xW40 oil... I
>
> > wouldn't run anything else. You could eat off the top of the head
>
> > casting in my Jeep... I know, as I replaced the valve cover gasket last
>
> > year. Damn thing looked like new under there. Gave me that warm fuzzy
>
> > feeling deep down inside. I'm running a CM (formerly Canton/Mecca) oil
>
> > filter on it for extra insurance, just 'cause I'm a geek, but I bet that
>
> > simply Rotella (dino or synth, doesn't matter) and regular oil/filter
>
> > changes would make the thing last longer than the body.
>
>
>
> Well, your bet supports my position. Any car or truck I have will
>
> suffer from so much under-body rust after 15+ years that it will not be
>
> worth repairing, so why worry about the engine? (My 1994 Civic Si,
>
> before being totaled out in a minor accident that left it drivable,
>
> would have required a cutting torch and more than it was worth in
>
> replacement parts to do a suspension alignment.)
>
>
>
> The couple of vehicles I do plan to keep long term get synthetic oil,
>
> but motorcycle specific since they run wet clutches, and putting
>
> something like Rotella T6 in would create clutch slippage.
>
>
>
> --
>
> T0m $herm@n

Newer vehicles tend to have better rustproofing... aforementioned Heep is already 15 years old I've only had to repair one small rust spot hidden under some plastic fender flare/trim, and have in my ownership deliberately removed and reinstalled some underbody fasteners for the express purpose of putting anti-seize on the threads while I still could.

My cousin (who I bought this from) has a son who just started kindergarten this year. He is very much like I was at his age and is nuts about mechanical stuff, especially stuff that's old, shiny, and red He thinks that he's going to get to drive the Heep when he is old enough, and it might actually be possible - my dad is still driving our grandfather's old Chevy pickup truck, we're just that kind of family. (I just wish we'd kept some other stuff, like the flat fender CJ that the pickup truck replaced, etc.)

On Monday, September 9, 2013 7:21:46 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
> On Sunday, September 8, 2013 8:48:25 PM UTC-4, T0m $herman wrote:
>
> > On 9/8/2013 6:02 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On 09/08/2013 03:23 PM, jim beam wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >> On 09/08/2013 10:33 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>> On 9/8/2013 11:36 AM, jim beam wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>>> On 09/08/2013 08:47 AM, T0m $herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>>>> On 9/8/2013 8:41 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> [...] Additionally, in any engine with any kind of variable valve
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> timing
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> scheme (VTEC, VANOS, etc.) I would also consider running a full
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> synthetic, just to keep the inside of the engine spankin' clean,
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> as at
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> least VANOS solenoids are known to get sticky requiring a decent
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> amount
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>> of labor to get to them, clean, reassemble.
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>>
>
> >
>
> > >>>>> I would not bother on something such as a Honda Civic with VTEC to use
>
> >
>
> > >>>>> synthetic - the rest of the car will be worn out before you need to
>
> >
>
> > >>>>> open
>
> >
>
> > >>>>> up the engine.
>
> >
>
> > >>>>>
>
> >
>
> > >>>>
>
> >
>
> > >>>> i would - i've seen those things badly sludged up, including the vtec
>
> >
>
> > >>>> control solenoid. regardless of other alleged benefits, the one thing
>
> >
>
> > >>>> you can say for most "synthetics" is that they have good
>
> >
>
> > >>>> detergent/additive packages, and minimize the impact of this kind of
>
> >
>
> > >>>> abuse.
>
> >
>
> > >>>>
>
> >
>
> > >>> Your own or one with unknown history? Mine have never had enough
>
> >
>
> > >>> combustion "blow-by" to even turn regular oil dark with 5,000 mile oil
>
> >
>
> > >>> change intervals, and no noticeable compression loss after 160,000 miles
>
> >
>
> > >>> of being run hard (at which time road salt corrosion had taken its toll
>
> >
>
> > >>> on the body and undercarriage).
>
> >
>
> > >>>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> junkyard kalifornistan civics. sure, they may have been 1-miles
>
> >
>
> > >> commuters, but a good synthetic is highly sludge resistant, even in that
>
> >
>
> > >> regime.
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> i would also say that cleanliness is essential for good oil consumption
>
> >
>
> > >> too. the motor i currently have in my civic used to burn oil like
>
> >
>
> > >> crazy. but, on the theory that clean piston rings are free to move and
>
> >
>
> > >> thus seal properly, i've been running synthetic/rotella and have seen
>
> >
>
> > >> oil consumption steadily drop. now it's down to ~1 quart in 7k miles.
>
> >
>
> > >> not perfect, but a lot better than it was!
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Rotella is damn near magical for older engines that like xW40 oil... I
>
> >
>
> > > wouldn't run anything else. You could eat off the top of the head
>
> >
>
> > > casting in my Jeep... I know, as I replaced the valve cover gasket last
>
> >
>
> > > year. Damn thing looked like new under there. Gave me that warm fuzzy
>
> >
>
> > > feeling deep down inside. I'm running a CM (formerly Canton/Mecca) oil
>
> >
>
> > > filter on it for extra insurance, just 'cause I'm a geek, but I bet that
>
> >
>
> > > simply Rotella (dino or synth, doesn't matter) and regular oil/filter
>
> >
>
> > > changes would make the thing last longer than the body.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Well, your bet supports my position. Any car or truck I have will
>
> >
>
> > suffer from so much under-body rust after 15+ years that it will not be
>
> >
>
> > worth repairing, so why worry about the engine? (My 1994 Civic Si,
>
> >
>
> > before being totaled out in a minor accident that left it drivable,
>
> >
>
> > would have required a cutting torch and more than it was worth in
>
> >
>
> > replacement parts to do a suspension alignment.)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The couple of vehicles I do plan to keep long term get synthetic oil,
>
> >
>
> > but motorcycle specific since they run wet clutches, and putting
>
> >
>
> > something like Rotella T6 in would create clutch slippage.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> >
>
> > T0m $herm@n
>
>
>
> Newer vehicles tend to have better rustproofing... aforementioned Heep is already 15 years old I've only had to repair one small rust spot hidden under some plastic fender flare/trim, and have in my ownership deliberately removed and reinstalled some underbody fasteners for the express purpose of putting anti-seize on the threads while I still could.
>
>
>
> My cousin (who I bought this from) has a son who just started kindergarten this year. He is very much like I was at his age and is nuts about mechanical stuff, especially stuff that's old, shiny, and red He thinks that he's going to get to drive the Heep when he is old enough, and it might actually be possible - my dad is still driving our grandfather's old Chevy pickup truck, we're just that kind of family. (I just wish we'd kept some other stuff, like the flat fender CJ that the pickup truck replaced, etc.)


Forgot to mention - I did an oil change in a friend's motorcycle a while back and I researched online to make sure I used the right products, because while I know a bit about cars, motorcycles really aren't my forte. Bike was a Suzuki something or other (600cc 2-cyl, "standard" bike) and the online consensus was that Rotella synthetic was the right stuff to use, so I did. Dunno if that was wrong or right, but a test ride afterwards was entirely underwhelming - it rode exactly like it did before messing with it.

nate

Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>Well, typically a true synthetic has better viscosity stability over a
>wide temperature range than conventional, and also better resistance to
>coking at high temperatures. So a synthetic blend will have some of the
>same advantages, but not as much as a full synthetic.

Maybe.

The problem is that oils that are sold as "synthetic" in the US are often
just ordinary paraffin oils which have been very tightly refined to a narrow
range of molecular weights, rather than esters or some other synthetic
molecule.

Most of these oils cannot be sold as synthetic in Europe, even though they
can be sold as synthetic in the US.

A few years ago, the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 formulation was a synthetic ester
oil, while the other Syntec oils were all highly refined paraffins.

What does this mean? Nobody really knows, because you don't have a good
idea about what you're actually buying when you buy a synthetic oil or a
blend because the actual formulations are all proprietary. You only know
it meets the minimum API standards... if it exceeds it, you have no idea
how much it exceeds it because there is no established testing standard.

Maybe you care about breakdown under shear conditions. Maybe you care about
how well it keeps a film under high pressure. Maybe you care it doesn't coke
up in a hot turbocharger when it's shut down. Maybe you only care about how
much blow-by it can keep in solution. Depending on your engine, you may care
about very different characteristics.

But, since you don't really know anything about any of those characteristics
unless you measure them yourself. So you pays your money and you takes your
chance.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Tegger > wrote:
>
>Those oddball Euro specs are primarily meant to operate with the extended
>change-intervals that those Euro vehicles have. Extended change-intervals
>are not compatible with non-synthetic oils.

SOME of those Euro specs are also useful if you want to keep a lot of
blow-by gunk in solution. I change the oil on the 2002 every 3,000 miles,
but when I do it's pretty nasty. After 480,000 miles it might be time for
new rings.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 09/09/2013 08:52 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>>
>> Well, typically a true synthetic has better viscosity stability over a
>> wide temperature range than conventional, and also better resistance to
>> coking at high temperatures. So a synthetic blend will have some of the
>> same advantages, but not as much as a full synthetic.
>
> Maybe.
>
> The problem is that oils that are sold as "synthetic" in the US are often
> just ordinary paraffin oils which have been very tightly refined to a narrow
> range of molecular weights, rather than esters or some other synthetic
> molecule.

correct, but not just weights, formation too. a branched chain can have
the same weight as a straight chain, but different viscosity/lube
characteristics.


>
> Most of these oils cannot be sold as synthetic in Europe, even though they
> can be sold as synthetic in the US.

true.


>
> A few years ago, the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 formulation was a synthetic ester
> oil, while the other Syntec oils were all highly refined paraffins.
>
> What does this mean? Nobody really knows,

the /public/ don't know. the people that sell/make the stuff know.

fact is, the public are probably the /only/ people that don't know
because everybody in the industry knows - they're just not telling in
case they can't sell their $3-per gallon stuff for $20 per gallon any
more.

in indonesia, there is a large "g.t.l." facility that turns natural gas
into oil. that oil is then sold locally as diesel fuel. and
profitably. that facility also makes oil that gets tanked and shipped
to the u.s and used as base for "synthetic" motor oils since it is
highly isomeric - and technically, it is indeed "synthesized" in that a
polymerization process is used in its creation. so think about that -
local diesel fuel vs. your high end lubricant, and the price differences
thereof...


> because you don't have a good
> idea about what you're actually buying when you buy a synthetic oil or a
> blend because the actual formulations are all proprietary. You only know
> it meets the minimum API standards... if it exceeds it, you have no idea
> how much it exceeds it because there is no established testing standard.
>
> Maybe you care about breakdown under shear conditions. Maybe you care about
> how well it keeps a film under high pressure. Maybe you care it doesn't coke
> up in a hot turbocharger when it's shut down. Maybe you only care about how
> much blow-by it can keep in solution. Depending on your engine, you may care
> about very different characteristics.
>
> But, since you don't really know anything about any of those characteristics
> unless you measure them yourself. So you pays your money and you takes your
> chance.

right. but you can get what you pay for if you know where to look. the
subject at the public level is highly obfuscated by more opinions than
there are people, but the correct information is out there if you want
to spend the time looking.


--
fact check required

On 9/9/2013 6:25 AM, N8N wrote:
> Forgot to mention - I did an oil change in a friend's motorcycle a while back and I researched online to make sure I used the right products, because while I know a bit about cars, motorcycles really aren't my forte. Bike was a Suzuki something or other (600cc 2-cyl, "standard" bike) and the online consensus was that Rotella synthetic was the right stuff to use, so I did. Dunno if that was wrong or right, but a test ride afterwards was entirely underwhelming - it rode exactly like it did before messing with it.

Sure it was 600cc? I would expect most V-2 standard Zooks to be 650cc
(SV650, Wee-Strom, Gladius, SFV650) while a 600cc would usually be a I-4
sport-bike (GSX-R, Katana).

While it is not guaranteed that a wet clutch will slip with a
non-specified oil with "friction reducers", it makes it more likely,
particularly at large throttle openings in the higher gears.

--
T0m $herm@n

On 9/9/2013 10:52 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>>
>> Well, typically a true synthetic has better viscosity stability over a
>> wide temperature range than conventional, and also better resistance to
>> coking at high temperatures. So a synthetic blend will have some of the
>> same advantages, but not as much as a full synthetic.
>
> Maybe.
>
> The problem is that oils that are sold as "synthetic" in the US are often
> just ordinary paraffin oils which have been very tightly refined to a narrow
> range of molecular weights, rather than esters or some other synthetic
> molecule.
>
> Most of these oils cannot be sold as synthetic in Europe, even though they
> can be sold as synthetic in the US.
>
> A few years ago, the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 formulation was a synthetic ester
> oil, while the other Syntec oils were all highly refined paraffins.
>
> What does this mean? Nobody really knows, because you don't have a good
> idea about what you're actually buying when you buy a synthetic oil or a
> blend because the actual formulations are all proprietary. You only know
> it meets the minimum API standards... if it exceeds it, you have no idea
> how much it exceeds it because there is no established testing standard.
>
> Maybe you care about breakdown under shear conditions. Maybe you care about
> how well it keeps a film under high pressure. Maybe you care it doesn't coke
> up in a hot turbocharger when it's shut down. Maybe you only care about how
> much blow-by it can keep in solution. Depending on your engine, you may care
> about very different characteristics.
>
> But, since you don't really know anything about any of those characteristics
> unless you measure them yourself. So you pays your money and you takes your
> chance.
> --scott
>
You can have your used oil analyzed for wear products to see how
effectively it is working.

--
T0m $herm@n