Dying for a Chevy Volt, but....

Awl --

After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
one, but bleeve, it's hard.
I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.

Now, about those electricity costs.....

If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.

Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
you actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.

So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF??

You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.

Now, it gets worse:
There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
take proly 20% more.

So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
that it does not
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
)

factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.

Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
badly.


So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.

YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
mpg vehicle..
But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??

Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....

Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
made a mistake somewhere.

Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I would
repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
costs by FIVE.
But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.

AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
electrics.

Idears?? Opinions?
--
EA

On 2/24/2013 4:52 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Awl --
>
> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>
> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> you actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
> it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> WTF??
>
> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>
> Now, it gets worse:
> There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
> It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
> take proly 20% more.
>
> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
> that it does not
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
> )
>
> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>
> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
> badly.
>
>
> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>
> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
> mpg vehicle..
> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>
> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>
> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
> made a mistake somewhere.
>
> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I would
> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
> costs by FIVE.
> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>
> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
> electrics.
>
> Idears?? Opinions?
>

The P.L.L.C.F. are always trying to push junk science and technology.
Electric vehicles have their place but the Moonbats are determined to
push immature technology upon the citizenry especially when there is
no widely established infrastructure to support it. When you see The
President and congressmen traveling around in battery powered limousines
and The Capital and White House powered completely by solar
cells and windmills, the technology will be ready for the masses. Until
that happens I'll be very skeptical that the present national energy and
transportation infrastructure should be scrapped for something from
La La Land. ^_^

TDD

On Feb 24, 5:52*am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
> Awl --
>
> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
> proly be $6,000 year.... *PLUS electricity costs.
>
> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> * *At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> * *Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
> kWhr.... *Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> you actually wrote on your check.

That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. What
you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
car. That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
method. For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
should not be attributed to the car. And if you're
in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
charging than shown by your method.



>*Around NYC, that seems to be about
> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.

Could be. Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.


>
> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
> it..... *that's about $20 in electricity.
> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... * *!!!!
> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... * MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> WTF??

The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
4 secs.


>
> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>
> Now, it gets worse:
> * *There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
> * It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
> take proly 20% more.
>
> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
> that it does nothttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highw...
> )
>
> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>
> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
> badly.
>
> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>
> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
> mpg vehicle..
> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... *What gives??

I don't know. But rather than winging the calcs, there must be
some actual real world test results available online. One key
factor is that you're assuming the battery fully discharges on each
cycle. They don't. How much is left IDK.


>
> Holy ****.... *there goes my Volt....
>
> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
> made a mistake somewhere.
>
> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... *and I would
> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. *At a
> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
> costs by FIVE.
> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>
> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
> electrics.
>
> Idears?? *Opinions?
> --
> EA

I think your math may be off a bit, but I think the conclusion
is probably valid. That's why the govt is subsidizing these things
with big tax credits. They were picking up about 12K of the cost
of the Volts, don't know what the deal is now. And from what I
saw, even with that, the car still wasn't as good as a conventional
car.

BTW, do you know that if you ever let the Tesla battery go
completely dead, it's bricked? That it cost like 30 -40K to
replace it? That's a nice feature. Even better, you would
think that would be in big print in the owners manual. It's
buried somewhere in there, but not made obvious. The car
can self drain the battery in about a month from a FULL charge.
So, what happens if you drive to the airport, arrive with the
battery low and leave on a week long trip?

It does have a phone home system where it alerts Tesla
that it's about to go kaput. And they then try to contact
you. LAst resort, when they could not find the owner,
they have even used the GPS to find the car and dispatch
their own Tesla service folks to plug it in. Despite that,
some have been bricked. A homeowner put one in a
garage for a couple months and thought it was plugged
in. Something happened with the cord getting disconnected.
Battery bricked and it isn't covered under warranty.

Another nice feature for pioneers.... But they seem to be
hippies that are focused on the idea that the car is zero
emission, conveniently forgetting that in most cases that
power is still coming from coal, nukes, etc.

On Feb 24, 7:50*am, " >
wrote:
> On Feb 24, 5:52*am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Awl --
>
> > After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
> > one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> > I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
> > proly be $6,000 year.... *PLUS electricity costs.
>
> > Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> > If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> > * *At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> > Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> > * *Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
> > kWhr.... *Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> > you actually wrote on your check.
>
> That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. *What
> you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
> car. *That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
> method. * For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
> of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
> should not be attributed to the car. * And if you're
> in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
> amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
> charging than shown by your method.
>
> >*Around NYC, that seems to be about
> > 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> Could be. *Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.
>
>
>
> > So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
> > it..... *that's about $20 in electricity.
> > If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> > If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... * *!!!!
> > Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... * MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
> > gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > WTF??
>
> The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
> 4 secs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>
> > Now, it gets worse:
> > * *There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
> > * It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
> > take proly 20% more.
>
> > So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
> > that it does nothttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highw...
> > )
>
> > factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
> > mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>
> > Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
> > badly.
>
> > So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
> > is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>
> > YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
> > around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
> > mpg vehicle..
> > But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
> > and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... *What gives??
>
> I don't know. *But rather than winging the calcs, there must be
> some actual real world test results available online. *One key
> factor is that you're assuming the battery fully discharges on each
> cycle. *They don't. *How much is left IDK.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Holy ****.... *there goes my Volt....
>
> > Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
> > deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
> > made a mistake somewhere.
>
> > Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... *and I would
> > repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. *At a
> > TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
> > costs by FIVE.
> > But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
> > CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>
> > AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
> > electrics.
>
> > Idears?? *Opinions?
> > --
> > EA
>
> I think your math may be off a bit, but I think the conclusion
> is probably valid. * That's why the govt is subsidizing these things
> with big tax credits. *They were picking up about 12K of the cost
> of the Volts, don't know what the deal is now. *And from what I
> saw, even with that, the car still wasn't as good as a conventional
> car.
>
> BTW, do you know that if you ever let the Tesla battery go
> completely dead, it's bricked? * That it cost like 30 -40K to
> replace it? * That's a nice feature. *Even better, you would
> think that would be in big print in the owners manual. *It's
> buried somewhere in there, but not made obvious. *The car
> can self drain the battery in about a month from a FULL charge.
> So, what happens if you drive to the airport, arrive with the
> battery low and leave on a week long trip?
>
> It does have a phone home system where it alerts Tesla
> that it's about to go kaput. *And they then try to contact
> you. *LAst resort, when they could not find the owner,
> they have even used the GPS to find the car and dispatch
> their own Tesla service folks to plug it in. *Despite that,
> some have been bricked. * A homeowner put one in a
> garage for a couple months and thought it was plugged
> in. *Something happened with the cord getting disconnected.
> Battery bricked and it isn't covered under warranty.
>
> Another nice feature for pioneers.... *But they seem to be
> hippies that are focused on the idea that the car is zero
> emission, conveniently forgetting that in most cases that
> power is still coming from coal, nukes, etc.

on telsa or any vehicle where a stone dead battery can kill the
battery it should have a automatic total disconnect relay of some type
to protect the expensive battery, self discharge of a disconected
battery should be low. plus a built in solar panel in case its
outdoors when the battery gets low.

the big advantage of electric vehicles is that they save gasoline
making us less dependent on a finite resource.

although i think any only electric vehiicle should be designed to
hitch on a trailer generator in case someone needs to take a really
long trip. generator trailers could be sold or rented for occasional
use

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:46:00 -0600, The Daring Dufas
> wrote:



>
>The P.L.L.C.F. are always trying to push junk science and technology.
>Electric vehicles have their place but the Moonbats are determined to
>push immature technology upon the citizenry especially when there is
>no widely established infrastructure to support it. When you see The
>President and congressmen traveling around in battery powered limousines
>and The Capital and White House powered completely by solar
>cells and windmills, the technology will be ready for the masses. Until
>that happens I'll be very skeptical that the present national energy and
>transportation infrastructure should be scrapped for something from
>La La Land. ^_^
>
>TDD


I won't call it junk science, but there is much need for improvement.
Solar is just starting to get a foothold in the sunny regions and is
still a very expensive alternative here in the northeast. The payback
is just not there for most of us. It has been on the market for 40
years already with minimal inroads.

Electric cars may have a place in the future, but right now they are
very impractical and expensive. If I lived in downtown New York
Boston, Chicago, etc. and only popped around town a couple of miles,
I'd probably consider a small car with electricity. If I can't make
it to work and back, it is useless for me. Not to mention very
expensive. It may become practical in the future, but I bet we are
looking at 15 to 30 years and a limited market.

CNG may be a better alternative for the small city cars.

On 2/24/2013 5:52 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Awl --
>
> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>
> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> you actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
> it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> WTF??
>
> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>
> Now, it gets worse:
> There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
> It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
> take proly 20% more.
>
> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
> that it does not
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
> )
>
> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>
> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
> badly.
>
>
> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>
> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
> mpg vehicle..
> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>
> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>
> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
> made a mistake somewhere.
>
> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I would
> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
> costs by FIVE.
> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>
> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
> electrics.
>
> Idears?? Opinions?
>

Did the math myself.
Hybrids are good for those that drive over maybe 20,000 miles per year.
For the bulk of us, they cost more. For those that think it is worth
the cost of conservation, hidden costs have not been considered like
mining the battery material, and these are often environmentally unfriendly.
When Prius first came out, I looked up cost of battery replacement and
figured after warranty ran out and batteries needed replacement you
might as well junk the car for what it was worth.

On Feb 24, 9:17*am, bob haller > wrote:
> On Feb 24, 7:50*am, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 24, 5:52*am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>
> > > Awl --
>
> > > After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
> > > one, but bleeve, it's hard.
> > > I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
> > > proly be $6,000 year.... *PLUS electricity costs.
>
> > > Now, about those electricity costs.....
>
> > > If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
> > > * *At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>
> > > Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
> > > * *Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
> > > kWhr.... *Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
> > > you actually wrote on your check.
>
> > That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. *What
> > you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
> > car. *That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
> > method. * For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
> > of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
> > should not be attributed to the car. * And if you're
> > in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
> > amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
> > charging than shown by your method.
>
> > >*Around NYC, that seems to be about
> > > 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>
> > Could be. *Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.
>
> > > So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
> > > it..... *that's about $20 in electricity.
> > > If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
> > > If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... * *!!!!
> > > Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... * MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
> > > gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > > WTF??
>
> > The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
> > 4 secs.
>
> > > You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>
> > > Now, it gets worse:
> > > * *There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
> > > * It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
> > > take proly 20% more.
>
> > > So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
> > > that it does nothttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highw...
> > > )
>
> > > factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
> > > mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>
> > > Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
> > > badly.
>
> > > So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
> > > is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>
> > > YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
> > > around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
> > > mpg vehicle..
> > > But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
> > > and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... *What gives??
>
> > I don't know. *But rather than winging the calcs, there must be
> > some actual real world test results available online. *One key
> > factor is that you're assuming the battery fully discharges on each
> > cycle. *They don't. *How much is left IDK.
>
> > > Holy ****.... *there goes my Volt....
>
> > > Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
> > > deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
> > > made a mistake somewhere.
>
> > > Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... *and I would
> > > repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. *At a
> > > TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
> > > costs by FIVE.
> > > But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
> > > CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>
> > > AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
> > > electrics.
>
> > > Idears?? *Opinions?
> > > --
> > > EA
>
> > I think your math may be off a bit, but I think the conclusion
> > is probably valid. * That's why the govt is subsidizing these things
> > with big tax credits. *They were picking up about 12K of the cost
> > of the Volts, don't know what the deal is now. *And from what I
> > saw, even with that, the car still wasn't as good as a conventional
> > car.
>
> > BTW, do you know that if you ever let the Tesla battery go
> > completely dead, it's bricked? * That it cost like 30 -40K to
> > replace it? * That's a nice feature. *Even better, you would
> > think that would be in big print in the owners manual. *It's
> > buried somewhere in there, but not made obvious. *The car
> > can self drain the battery in about a month from a FULL charge.
> > So, what happens if you drive to the airport, arrive with the
> > battery low and leave on a week long trip?
>
> > It does have a phone home system where it alerts Tesla
> > that it's about to go kaput. *And they then try to contact
> > you. *LAst resort, when they could not find the owner,
> > they have even used the GPS to find the car and dispatch
> > their own Tesla service folks to plug it in. *Despite that,
> > some have been bricked. * A homeowner put one in a
> > garage for a couple months and thought it was plugged
> > in. *Something happened with the cord getting disconnected.
> > Battery bricked and it isn't covered under warranty.
>
> > Another nice feature for pioneers.... *But they seem to be
> > hippies that are focused on the idea that the car is zero
> > emission, conveniently forgetting that in most cases that
> > power is still coming from coal, nukes, etc.
>
> on telsa or any vehicle where a stone dead battery can kill the
> battery it should have a automatic total disconnect relay of some type
> to protect the expensive battery, self discharge of a disconected
> battery should be low. plus a built in solar panel in case its
> outdoors when the battery gets low.
>
> the big advantage of electric vehicles is that they save gasoline
> making us less dependent on a finite resource.
>
> although i think any only electric vehiicle should be designed to
> hitch on a trailer generator in case someone needs to take a really
> long trip. generator trailers could be sold or rented for occasional
> use- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

How many cars do you think you'd sell when you advertise the fact
that for a long trip you need to go rent a trailer with a generator?

"Frank" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/24/2013 5:52 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
>> Awl --
>>
>> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase
>> of
>> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
>> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt
>> would
>> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>>
>> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>>
>> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
>> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>>
>> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
>> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c
>> per
>> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
>> you actually wrote on your check. Around NYC, that seems to be about
>> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>>
>> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to
>> charge
>> it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
>> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
>> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
>> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile
>> in
>> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> WTF??
>>
>> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>>
>> Now, it gets worse:
>> There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
>> It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it
>> will
>> take proly 20% more.
>>
>> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article
>> suggests
>> that it does not
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/au...ewanted=1&_r=0
>> )
>>
>> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $
>> per
>> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>>
>> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss.
>> loses
>> badly.
>>
>>
>> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other
>> factors,
>> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>>
>> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
>> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a
>> 30
>> mpg vehicle..
>> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as
>> gas,
>> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>>
>> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>>
>> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
>> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
>> made a mistake somewhere.
>>
>> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I
>> would
>> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
>> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above
>> electric
>> costs by FIVE.
>> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places,
>> like
>> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>>
>> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
>> electrics.
>>
>> Idears?? Opinions?
>>
>
> Did the math myself.
> Hybrids are good for those that drive over maybe 20,000 miles per year.
> For the bulk of us, they cost more. For those that think it is worth the
> cost of conservation, hidden costs have not been considered like mining
> the battery material, and these are often environmentally unfriendly.
> When Prius first came out, I looked up cost of battery replacement and
> figured after warranty ran out and batteries needed replacement you might
> as well junk the car for what it was worth.

But my point was, *just considering the fuel source alone*, electrics *at
best* are = to $4/gal gasoline, *unless* your electric rate is really low.
And I suspect few are.

Which makes those "MPGe" stats of 100 total effing bull****. They must be
using electric rates from 1950.

The other stuff involved with electrics -- initial cost, battery
cost/life/deterioration, etc -- just worsens the comparison.
What a bummer.

Sposedly, the batts for a chevy volt (16 kWhr, 1/5 the rating of Tesla), are
"only" about $3,000 -- not terrible terrible over 8 years/100,000 mile, but
that does add about 3c to the cost per mile calc, not insignificant.
--
EA

"bob haller" > wrote in message
news:2e55faad-149d-4fd5-8002-
>on telsa or any vehicle where a stone dead battery can kill the
>battery it should have a automatic total disconnect relay of some
>type
>to protect the expensive battery, self discharge of a disconected
>battery should be low. plus a built in solar panel in case its
>outdoors when the battery gets low.

Here is a non-technical explanation of Lithium battery management:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_management_system

You can see it in action when a laptop displays its calculated battery
run time.
jsw

On 2/24/2013 9:17 AM, bob haller wrote:
> On Feb 24, 7:50 am, " >
> wrote:
>> On Feb 24, 5:52 am, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Awl --
>>
>>> After a recent thread on the Volt, I'm really tryna justify the purchase of
>>> one, but bleeve, it's hard.
>>> I figger my gas cost per year is $1600 or so, and payments for a Volt would
>>> proly be $6,000 year.... PLUS electricity costs.
>>
>>> Now, about those electricity costs.....
>>
>>> If you calculate the $ per mile of gas, you get something like this:
>>> At $4/gal, with 30 mi/gal, it costs 13c/mi in fuel.
>>
>>> Now, how much does it cost to charge a battery?
>>> Don't for a minute believe what your ripoff utility tells you about c per
>>> kWhr.... Do the math on your bill, divide the kWhr on the bill into what
>>> you actually wrote on your check.
>>
>> That isn't the correct way of doing the calculation. What
>> you want to find is the INCREMENTAL cost of charging a
>> car. That could be lower or higher than the rate with your
>> method. For example if you have a monthly fixed charge
>> of $25, you're paying that regardless of the car and it
>> should not be attributed to the car. And if you're
>> in an area where rates escalate if you exceed a certain
>> amount, then you're going to pay more for the car
>> charging than shown by your method.
>>
>>> Around NYC, that seems to be about
>>> 25c/kWhr -- which is outrageous.
>>
>> Could be. Here in NJ it's been around 15c to 17c.
>>
>>
>>
>>> So let's figger that Tesla's 85 kWhr battery takes, well, 85 kWhr to charge
>>> it..... that's about $20 in electricity.
>>> If the Tesla gets 200 miles on that charge, that's 10c/mile.
>>> If it only gets 100 miles, that's 20c/mile..... !!!!
>>> Split the diff, that's 15c/mile.... MORE than what I'm paying per mile in
>>> gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>> WTF??
>>
>> The Tesla is a performance car that does 0 to 60 in like
>> 4 secs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> You get similar numbers for the Leaf, and Volt.
>>
>>> Now, it gets worse:
>>> There's the ever-present thermodynamic kick-in-the-ass.
>>> It will NEVER take only 85 kWhrs to charge an 85 kWhr battery -- it will
>>> take proly 20% more.
>>
>>> So even if the Tesla DOES get 200 mi per charge (and jb's article suggests
>>> that it does nothttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highw...
>>> )
>>
>>> factor in the charging inefficiency, and you are just about EQUAL in $ per
>>> mi cost of a 30 mpg vehicle.
>>
>>> Anything less than 200 mi per charge, and the Tesla loses, and poss. loses
>>> badly.
>>
>>> So at NYC electric rates, an electric car, not counting ANY other factors,
>>> is actually MORE expensive than gas, at $4/gal.
>>
>>> YET, you see these huge "equivalent" mpg numbers for electrics, typically
>>> around 100 mpg, implying a $ per mile cost of less than 1/3 the cost of a 30
>>> mpg vehicle..
>>> But my calcs show that an electric will be *at least* as expensive as gas,
>>> and likely considerably more than gas, as a fuel.... What gives??
>>
>> I don't know. But rather than winging the calcs, there must be
>> some actual real world test results available online. One key
>> factor is that you're assuming the battery fully discharges on each
>> cycle. They don't. How much is left IDK.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Holy ****.... there goes my Volt....
>>
>>> Now factor in the high initial cost of electrics, inevitable battery
>>> deterioration AND replacement cost, and wow, simply not viable. Unless I
>>> made a mistake somewhere.
>>
>>> Now, some may bleat, Oh OH, MY electric rates are 5c/kWhr.... and I would
>>> repeat, do the net division on your bill to see what it REALLY is. At a
>>> TRUE 5c/kWhr, yeah, it makes sense, you could divide all the above electric
>>> costs by FIVE.
>>> But I don't think anyone is really paying 5c, and quite a few places, like
>>> CA, pay MORE than NYS utility rates.
>>
>>> AND, if your small car gets 40 mpg, that's even tougher competition for
>>> electrics.
>>
>>> Idears?? Opinions?
>>> --
>>> EA
>>
>> I think your math may be off a bit, but I think the conclusion
>> is probably valid. That's why the govt is subsidizing these things
>> with big tax credits. They were picking up about 12K of the cost
>> of the Volts, don't know what the deal is now. And from what I
>> saw, even with that, the car still wasn't as good as a conventional
>> car.
>>
>> BTW, do you know that if you ever let the Tesla battery go
>> completely dead, it's bricked? That it cost like 30 -40K to
>> replace it? That's a nice feature. Even better, you would
>> think that would be in big print in the owners manual. It's
>> buried somewhere in there, but not made obvious. The car
>> can self drain the battery in about a month from a FULL charge.
>> So, what happens if you drive to the airport, arrive with the
>> battery low and leave on a week long trip?
>>
>> It does have a phone home system where it alerts Tesla
>> that it's about to go kaput. And they then try to contact
>> you. LAst resort, when they could not find the owner,
>> they have even used the GPS to find the car and dispatch
>> their own Tesla service folks to plug it in. Despite that,
>> some have been bricked. A homeowner put one in a
>> garage for a couple months and thought it was plugged
>> in. Something happened with the cord getting disconnected.
>> Battery bricked and it isn't covered under warranty.
>>
>> Another nice feature for pioneers.... But they seem to be
>> hippies that are focused on the idea that the car is zero
>> emission, conveniently forgetting that in most cases that
>> power is still coming from coal, nukes, etc.
>
> on telsa or any vehicle where a stone dead battery can kill the
> battery it should have a automatic total disconnect relay of some type
> to protect the expensive battery, self discharge of a disconected
> battery should be low. plus a built in solar panel in case its
> outdoors when the battery gets low.
>
> the big advantage of electric vehicles is that they save gasoline
> making us less dependent on a finite resource.
>
> although i think any only electric vehiicle should be designed to
> hitch on a trailer generator in case someone needs to take a really
> long trip. generator trailers could be sold or rented for occasional
> use
>
There is also common sense. Lets say you typically drive 40 miles/day
round trip and you take a longer trip on occasion. Why couldn't you
simply rent a gas engine car for those long trips? This is very similar
to driving a mammoth truck with 150,000 towing capacity and a 500 HP
engine everyday so you can tow a trailer once/year.