Toyota caught red-handed attempting to kill 4,000,000 Americans

They succeeded in murdering only 15. There were a total of 2,000 crashes
caused by the "floor mat" problem.

Seriously --- this is weird. Many think it has nothing to do with the floor
mat or the accelerator. Toyota denies it has anything to do with the
computer or electronics. Which obviously means it has everything to do with
the computer and/or electronics.

Toyota in the meantime officially states that the problem is all the fault
of the driver and not their problem. They did concede today that they will
shorten or replace the accelerator on 4,000,000 cars and made a public
statement that Toyota and Lexus drivers should practice shifting into
neutral. Apparently also they have agreed to do a "brake override" (that
was not explained on the news broadcast I saw tonight but it is supposed to
be the Jesus Button if everything else fails). The brake override is
provided by German car makers as standard equipment. It's apparently
unneeded on American cars because they don't have the problem.

Toyota further states that most of the repairs are scheduled for April of
next year.
--
Pat

Toyota= blame the driver/owner.


a time honored tradition with them




"Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
...
> They succeeded in murdering only 15. There were a total of 2,000 crashes
> caused by the "floor mat" problem.
>
> Seriously --- this is weird. Many think it has nothing to do with the
> floor mat or the accelerator. Toyota denies it has anything to do with
> the computer or electronics. Which obviously means it has everything to
> do with the computer and/or electronics.
>
> Toyota in the meantime officially states that the problem is all the fault
> of the driver and not their problem. They did concede today that they
> will shorten or replace the accelerator on 4,000,000 cars and made a
> public statement that Toyota and Lexus drivers should practice shifting
> into neutral. Apparently also they have agreed to do a "brake override"
> (that was not explained on the news broadcast I saw tonight but it is
> supposed to be the Jesus Button if everything else fails). The brake
> override is provided by German car makers as standard equipment. It's
> apparently unneeded on American cars because they don't have the problem.
>
> Toyota further states that most of the repairs are scheduled for April of
> next year.
> --
> Pat
>

I think calling them murderers might be actionable so I'd be a bit more
circumspect if I were you. I doubt that Toyota set out to murder anyone and
I believe that for murder to have occurred there needs to have been
premeditation. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Toyota underestimated
the profound stupidity of many of the people who bought and drive their
vehicles.

I further suspect that the anaesthetized American drivers didn't think that
when a floormat bunches up under a pedal it might interfere with the
operation of that pedal. Back in the days of loose mats, we all experienced
that and knew enough to pull the mat back into place every now and then.
Why is that impossible now? Or unreasonable to expect of a driver? I
suppose that with one hand wrapped around a beverage cup and the other
holding a cellphone to an ear and with both knees pressing against the
steering wheel while their eyes were riveted to the in-dash navigation
screen, the numbskulls behind the wheel didn't think to look before they
drove off. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there should be IQ
tests before anyone gets a driver's license.

Mercedes has an interlock built in so that if you press simultaneously on
the brake and accelerator the engine defaults to idle. Then no matter what
happens the brakes are strong enough to overcome the engine. Why this can't
be on every car that has drive by wire is beyond me. It just seems to be
common sense. Of course, with those kinds of electronics built in, it
reduces the number of groups who can be sued for driver stupidity and
ignorance, so maybe there's a lobby of ambulance chasers pushing against
fitting fail safe devices to cars in North America.

Max

"Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
...
> They succeeded in murdering only 15. There were a total of 2,000 crashes
> caused by the "floor mat" problem.
>
> Seriously --- this is weird. Many think it has nothing to do with the
> floor mat or the accelerator. Toyota denies it has anything to do with
> the computer or electronics. Which obviously means it has everything to
> do with the computer and/or electronics.
>
> Toyota in the meantime officially states that the problem is all the fault
> of the driver and not their problem. They did concede today that they
> will shorten or replace the accelerator on 4,000,000 cars and made a
> public statement that Toyota and Lexus drivers should practice shifting
> into neutral. Apparently also they have agreed to do a "brake override"
> (that was not explained on the news broadcast I saw tonight but it is
> supposed to be the Jesus Button if everything else fails). The brake
> override is provided by German car makers as standard equipment. It's
> apparently unneeded on American cars because they don't have the problem.
>
> Toyota further states that most of the repairs are scheduled for April of
> next year.
> --
> Pat
>
>

I'm still trying to figure out why the supposedly highly trained CHP officer
who was killed with 3 other members of his family didn't just throw the car
into neutral. I guess he was too busy trying to figure out how to turn the
car off with the starter button...

--
Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm
"Max Magister" > wrote in message
...
>I think calling them murderers might be actionable so I'd be a bit more
>circumspect if I were you. I doubt that Toyota set out to murder anyone
>and I believe that for murder to have occurred there needs to have been
>premeditation. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Toyota underestimated
>the profound stupidity of many of the people who bought and drive their
>vehicles.
>
> I further suspect that the anaesthetized American drivers didn't think
> that when a floormat bunches up under a pedal it might interfere with the
> operation of that pedal. Back in the days of loose mats, we all
> experienced that and knew enough to pull the mat back into place every now
> and then. Why is that impossible now? Or unreasonable to expect of a
> driver? I suppose that with one hand wrapped around a beverage cup and
> the other holding a cellphone to an ear and with both knees pressing
> against the steering wheel while their eyes were riveted to the in-dash
> navigation screen, the numbskulls behind the wheel didn't think to look
> before they drove off. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there
> should be IQ tests before anyone gets a driver's license.
>
> Mercedes has an interlock built in so that if you press simultaneously on
> the brake and accelerator the engine defaults to idle. Then no matter
> what happens the brakes are strong enough to overcome the engine. Why
> this can't be on every car that has drive by wire is beyond me. It just
> seems to be common sense. Of course, with those kinds of electronics
> built in, it reduces the number of groups who can be sued for driver
> stupidity and ignorance, so maybe there's a lobby of ambulance chasers
> pushing against fitting fail safe devices to cars in North America.
>
> Max
>
> "Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> They succeeded in murdering only 15. There were a total of 2,000 crashes
>> caused by the "floor mat" problem.
>>
>> Seriously --- this is weird. Many think it has nothing to do with the
>> floor mat or the accelerator. Toyota denies it has anything to do with
>> the computer or electronics. Which obviously means it has everything to
>> do with the computer and/or electronics.
>>
>> Toyota in the meantime officially states that the problem is all the
>> fault of the driver and not their problem. They did concede today that
>> they will shorten or replace the accelerator on 4,000,000 cars and made a
>> public statement that Toyota and Lexus drivers should practice shifting
>> into neutral. Apparently also they have agreed to do a "brake override"
>> (that was not explained on the news broadcast I saw tonight but it is
>> supposed to be the Jesus Button if everything else fails). The brake
>> override is provided by German car makers as standard equipment. It's
>> apparently unneeded on American cars because they don't have the problem.
>>
>> Toyota further states that most of the repairs are scheduled for April of
>> next year.
>> --
>> Pat
>>
>>
>
>

"Max Magister" > wrote in message
...

>I think calling them murderers might be actionable so I'd be a bit more
>circumspect if I were you. I doubt that Toyota set out to murder anyone
>and I believe that for murder to have occurred there needs to have been
>premeditation. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Toyota underestimated
>the profound stupidity of many of the people who bought and drive their
>vehicles.

I don't think I'd be too worried about that. Of course Toyota didn't set
out to actually murder anybody. The same can be said about a drunk who gets
behind the wheel and kills a family of four. So now we're down to the fine
distinction between murder and manslaughter.

Max I'll be frank about something. I've kind of joked about how a police
officer who presumably had pursuit training at the academy and should
understand --- if anybody does --- how to handle a car, can make a series of
blunders that resulted in the deaths of 3 others plus himself.

I've just found out recently that the guy wasn't an actual on-the-road CHP
officer, but rather one of the guys who work as a fleet inspector to insure
compliance by heavy duty truck operators. In fairness to him his high speed
"training" was quite a few years ago and he was a regular schlep like the
rest of us right up until the day he died. And FURTHERMORE I'm positive
that no part of his pursuit training would have prepared him for an
emergency in a Toyota with a push-button iginition that wasn't even designed
for a couple of decades after he graduated from the academy. So from now on
I'm not going to joke about his skill as a driver. He was just a driver.
Caught in an unexpected situation.

Another thing I was unaware of --- and maybe you are too, judging by what
you've written here --- is that although the CHP officer's case got plenty
of press and spurred all the negative attention on Toyota, IT WAS NOT THE
FIRST INCIDENT OF THIS TYPE. In fact there have been TWO THOUSAND SIMILAR
ACCIDENTS prior to now. Eleven fatalities. Add the four from the CHP
officer's car and the total hits fifteen. No telling how many injuries
serious or otherwise have occured but it would almost certainly be a
substantial number.

TWO THOUSAND?!?!?! My god. That is a freakin' scandal that rises to the
level of criminal negligence not only on the part of Toyota but also the
regulatory agencies that are supposed to be stalwartly defending us from
idiot car builders whose idea of "quality" may be seriously at odds with our
own. Much like the Chinese laborers who've worked on your building.

Believe me I'm not overlooking the ironic fact that I personally have said
derogatory things about government regulators more than a few times in this
NG over the years. "Trust me. I'm from the government".

Conservatives like myself - yeah, I am one down deep - believe to the bottom
of our souls that government has no business telling manufacturers how to do
business (with a few exceptions). But maybe there's room for some
government oversight after all and it surely didn't happen in this case. A
disappointing fact. And it is also disappointing that Toyota chose, after
voluminous field reports of these incidents to "soldier on" and ignore the
obvious problem. That was irresponsible. Not the kind of behavior I'd
expect from a world industrial leader.

> I further suspect that the anaesthetized American drivers didn't think
> that when a floormat bunches up under a pedal it might interfere with the
> operation of that pedal.

Yeah yeah yeah. Can we take a break on this "stupid driver" thing? Yes
there are stupid drivers. I'll stipulate that. I saw one today. Yeah ---
they're out there.

But now that more facts are coming out it appears this incident may not even
have anything to do with a floormat Max. Did you know that? And if that
turns out to be the case then what? Maybe Toyota really really really does
have a bad design on its hands. A lethal design. And of course they don't
want to admit it. A final determination has yet to be made but for the
nonce it appears maybe we were a little too quick to point fingers at the
stupid cop who didn't know how to handle a car.

> Back in the days of loose mats, we all experienced that and knew enough to
> pull the mat back into place every now and then. Why is that impossible
> now?

Uh. See above. The floor mat may not have had anything to do with it.
Probably didn't, in fact. The Toyota throttle pedal isn't hinged at the
back. It's a suspended design. If the mat slides forward it might hinder
the downward movement of the pedal but it's a stretch to imagine it holding
the pedal to the floor.

If for some reason a Toyota or Lexus driver *does* experience a "throttle
event" apparently it is not correctable by merely reaching over and turning
off the ignition and rolling to a stop. Remember --- Toyota's official
position is that a driver should practice kicking his transmission into
neutral instead. I would guess the pushbutton start circuit may have some
bearing on this instruction but I do not know the particulars.

Toyota Corporation is stating that it's engineers can find no duplicatable
type of computer fault that might cause or enable the problem. On the other
hand they can't say it isn't happening either. And since it's happened so
often it makes me wonder everytime I see a Toyota in my rearview mirror if
he's going to run into me and kill me and my family.

For now I just think that on behalf of all highway users --- stupid ones as
well as smart --- Toyota and Lexus drivers should voluntarily park their
cars until a solution one way or the other is found.
--
Pat

Unlike you, Pat, I believe that experience has shown us that we cannot trust
manufacturers to do the right thing. It takes regulations and enforcement.
We'd never have had the various safety devices that are now commonplace in
cars if they hadn't been legislated. But having said that I also believe
that this push-button start fad is ridiculous especially when, in an
emergency, one has to hold down the button for 3 full seconds to cut off the
engine. So you're in emergency braking, trying to steer away from a
disaster without flipping your car, and with one hand you now have to reach
over to the button on the dash and manage to hold it down for three seconds.
Who can do that successfully? And if that's what caused the problem with
this man's Toyota, then that's a terrible thing that should never have been
allowed to happen. There should have been an instantaneous shut off
somewhere, maybe like a key, like in the "old days" or, failing that, a
simple interlock like on my Mercedes that makes it impossible to feed the
engine gas while the brake pedal is depressed. It works very well and
should be mandatory in every vehicle with push-button start. Obviously we
haven't been able to trust manufacturers, at least not all of them, to
include such a provision in their electronic circuitry so it's time for the
government to step in and make it a compulsory retro-fit for all vehicles
with drive by wire accelerators and push-button starts.

Max

"Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
...
> "Max Magister" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I think calling them murderers might be actionable so I'd be a bit more
>>circumspect if I were you. I doubt that Toyota set out to murder anyone
>>and I believe that for murder to have occurred there needs to have been
>>premeditation. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Toyota underestimated
>>the profound stupidity of many of the people who bought and drive their
>>vehicles.
>
> I don't think I'd be too worried about that. Of course Toyota didn't set
> out to actually murder anybody. The same can be said about a drunk who
> gets behind the wheel and kills a family of four. So now we're down to
> the fine distinction between murder and manslaughter.
>
> Max I'll be frank about something. I've kind of joked about how a police
> officer who presumably had pursuit training at the academy and should
> understand --- if anybody does --- how to handle a car, can make a series
> of blunders that resulted in the deaths of 3 others plus himself.
>
> I've just found out recently that the guy wasn't an actual on-the-road CHP
> officer, but rather one of the guys who work as a fleet inspector to
> insure compliance by heavy duty truck operators. In fairness to him his
> high speed "training" was quite a few years ago and he was a regular
> schlep like the rest of us right up until the day he died. And
> FURTHERMORE I'm positive that no part of his pursuit training would have
> prepared him for an emergency in a Toyota with a push-button iginition
> that wasn't even designed for a couple of decades after he graduated from
> the academy. So from now on I'm not going to joke about his skill as a
> driver. He was just a driver. Caught in an unexpected situation.
>
> Another thing I was unaware of --- and maybe you are too, judging by what
> you've written here --- is that although the CHP officer's case got plenty
> of press and spurred all the negative attention on Toyota, IT WAS NOT THE
> FIRST INCIDENT OF THIS TYPE. In fact there have been TWO THOUSAND SIMILAR
> ACCIDENTS prior to now. Eleven fatalities. Add the four from the CHP
> officer's car and the total hits fifteen. No telling how many injuries
> serious or otherwise have occured but it would almost certainly be a
> substantial number.
>
> TWO THOUSAND?!?!?! My god. That is a freakin' scandal that rises to the
> level of criminal negligence not only on the part of Toyota but also the
> regulatory agencies that are supposed to be stalwartly defending us from
> idiot car builders whose idea of "quality" may be seriously at odds with
> our own. Much like the Chinese laborers who've worked on your building.
>
> Believe me I'm not overlooking the ironic fact that I personally have said
> derogatory things about government regulators more than a few times in
> this NG over the years. "Trust me. I'm from the government".
>
> Conservatives like myself - yeah, I am one down deep - believe to the
> bottom of our souls that government has no business telling manufacturers
> how to do business (with a few exceptions). But maybe there's room for
> some government oversight after all and it surely didn't happen in this
> case. A disappointing fact. And it is also disappointing that Toyota
> chose, after voluminous field reports of these incidents to "soldier on"
> and ignore the obvious problem. That was irresponsible. Not the kind of
> behavior I'd expect from a world industrial leader.
>
>> I further suspect that the anaesthetized American drivers didn't think
>> that when a floormat bunches up under a pedal it might interfere with the
>> operation of that pedal.
>
> Yeah yeah yeah. Can we take a break on this "stupid driver" thing? Yes
> there are stupid drivers. I'll stipulate that. I saw one today.
> Yeah --- they're out there.
>
> But now that more facts are coming out it appears this incident may not
> even have anything to do with a floormat Max. Did you know that? And if
> that turns out to be the case then what? Maybe Toyota really really
> really does have a bad design on its hands. A lethal design. And of
> course they don't want to admit it. A final determination has yet to be
> made but for the nonce it appears maybe we were a little too quick to
> point fingers at the stupid cop who didn't know how to handle a car.
>
>> Back in the days of loose mats, we all experienced that and knew enough
>> to pull the mat back into place every now and then. Why is that
>> impossible now?
>
> Uh. See above. The floor mat may not have had anything to do with it.
> Probably didn't, in fact. The Toyota throttle pedal isn't hinged at the
> back. It's a suspended design. If the mat slides forward it might hinder
> the downward movement of the pedal but it's a stretch to imagine it
> holding the pedal to the floor.
>
> If for some reason a Toyota or Lexus driver *does* experience a "throttle
> event" apparently it is not correctable by merely reaching over and
> turning off the ignition and rolling to a stop. Remember --- Toyota's
> official position is that a driver should practice kicking his
> transmission into neutral instead. I would guess the pushbutton start
> circuit may have some bearing on this instruction but I do not know the
> particulars.
>
> Toyota Corporation is stating that it's engineers can find no duplicatable
> type of computer fault that might cause or enable the problem. On the
> other hand they can't say it isn't happening either. And since it's
> happened so often it makes me wonder everytime I see a Toyota in my
> rearview mirror if he's going to run into me and kill me and my family.
>
> For now I just think that on behalf of all highway users --- stupid ones
> as well as smart --- Toyota and Lexus drivers should voluntarily park
> their cars until a solution one way or the other is found.
> --
> Pat
>

Max, you certainly have a more reasoned approach to the issue.

"Max Magister" > wrote in message
...
>I think calling them murderers might be actionable so I'd be a bit more
>circumspect if I were you. I doubt that Toyota set out to murder anyone
>and I believe that for murder to have occurred there needs to have been
>premeditation. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Toyota underestimated
>the profound stupidity of many of the people who bought and drive their
>vehicles.
>
> I further suspect that the anaesthetized American drivers didn't think
> that when a floormat bunches up under a pedal it might interfere with the
> operation of that pedal. Back in the days of loose mats, we all
> experienced that and knew enough to pull the mat back into place every now
> and then. Why is that impossible now? Or unreasonable to expect of a
> driver? I suppose that with one hand wrapped around a beverage cup and
> the other holding a cellphone to an ear and with both knees pressing
> against the steering wheel while their eyes were riveted to the in-dash
> navigation screen, the numbskulls behind the wheel didn't think to look
> before they drove off. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there
> should be IQ tests before anyone gets a driver's license.
>
> Mercedes has an interlock built in so that if you press simultaneously on
> the brake and accelerator the engine defaults to idle. Then no matter
> what happens the brakes are strong enough to overcome the engine. Why
> this can't be on every car that has drive by wire is beyond me. It just
> seems to be common sense. Of course, with those kinds of electronics
> built in, it reduces the number of groups who can be sued for driver
> stupidity and ignorance, so maybe there's a lobby of ambulance chasers
> pushing against fitting fail safe devices to cars in North America.
>
> Max
>
> "Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> They succeeded in murdering only 15. There were a total of 2,000 crashes
>> caused by the "floor mat" problem.
>>
>> Seriously --- this is weird. Many think it has nothing to do with the
>> floor mat or the accelerator. Toyota denies it has anything to do with
>> the computer or electronics. Which obviously means it has everything to
>> do with the computer and/or electronics.
>>
>> Toyota in the meantime officially states that the problem is all the
>> fault of the driver and not their problem. They did concede today that
>> they will shorten or replace the accelerator on 4,000,000 cars and made a
>> public statement that Toyota and Lexus drivers should practice shifting
>> into neutral. Apparently also they have agreed to do a "brake override"
>> (that was not explained on the news broadcast I saw tonight but it is
>> supposed to be the Jesus Button if everything else fails). The brake
>> override is provided by German car makers as standard equipment. It's
>> apparently unneeded on American cars because they don't have the problem.
>>
>> Toyota further states that most of the repairs are scheduled for April of
>> next year.
>> --
>> Pat
>>
>>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 4638 (20091126) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4638 (20091126) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

lets all remember Toyotas 3.0 V6 engines sludging up and failing. Toyotas,
response? ' you Americans don't change your oil often enough" funny how no
other Toyota engine was doing this.

the Toyota Tacoma's built at the NUMMI plant in California from 96 to 99
(depending on VIN number) have rusting frames that Toyota is buying back for
1.5 times current blue book price to get them off the road. now they are
recalling the rusting frame 2000 to 2003 Tundra's
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/911249989 and blaming Dana

remember the sticking seat belt buckle debacle a few years back? 05 and 04
Camry's - Toyotas response was " you stupid Americans need to stop eating in
your cars". no other car manufacturer had a buckle issue to my knowledge.

now keep in mind this isn't a "pile on Toyota rant". hell some Fords have
caught fire in the middle of the night sitting in the service bay of a local
dealership.....they still have that issue with the cruise control wiring on
some models.GM, Chrysler, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, they all have some
recalls, and technical service bulletins ( usually not safety issues but
bulletins to tell techs what the most likely causes of a certain failure
are) but the fact is Toyota typically is slow to admit an issue, and their
responses sometimes seem very arrogant to me. apparently they have enough
good cars out there though that a lot of folks love them and continue to buy
them. Ofcourse making commercials that make it appear that the sun rises and
sets because of the Prius, isn't hurting them.


"Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
...
> "Max Magister" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I think calling them murderers might be actionable so I'd be a bit more
>>circumspect if I were you. I doubt that Toyota set out to murder anyone
>>and I believe that for murder to have occurred there needs to have been
>>premeditation. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Toyota underestimated
>>the profound stupidity of many of the people who bought and drive their
>>vehicles.
>
> I don't think I'd be too worried about that. Of course Toyota didn't set
> out to actually murder anybody. The same can be said about a drunk who
> gets behind the wheel and kills a family of four. So now we're down to
> the fine distinction between murder and manslaughter.
>
> Max I'll be frank about something. I've kind of joked about how a police
> officer who presumably had pursuit training at the academy and should
> understand --- if anybody does --- how to handle a car, can make a series
> of blunders that resulted in the deaths of 3 others plus himself.
>
> I've just found out recently that the guy wasn't an actual on-the-road CHP
> officer, but rather one of the guys who work as a fleet inspector to
> insure compliance by heavy duty truck operators. In fairness to him his
> high speed "training" was quite a few years ago and he was a regular
> schlep like the rest of us right up until the day he died. And
> FURTHERMORE I'm positive that no part of his pursuit training would have
> prepared him for an emergency in a Toyota with a push-button iginition
> that wasn't even designed for a couple of decades after he graduated from
> the academy. So from now on I'm not going to joke about his skill as a
> driver. He was just a driver. Caught in an unexpected situation.
>
> Another thing I was unaware of --- and maybe you are too, judging by what
> you've written here --- is that although the CHP officer's case got plenty
> of press and spurred all the negative attention on Toyota, IT WAS NOT THE
> FIRST INCIDENT OF THIS TYPE. In fact there have been TWO THOUSAND SIMILAR
> ACCIDENTS prior to now. Eleven fatalities. Add the four from the CHP
> officer's car and the total hits fifteen. No telling how many injuries
> serious or otherwise have occured but it would almost certainly be a
> substantial number.
>
> TWO THOUSAND?!?!?! My god. That is a freakin' scandal that rises to the
> level of criminal negligence not only on the part of Toyota but also the
> regulatory agencies that are supposed to be stalwartly defending us from
> idiot car builders whose idea of "quality" may be seriously at odds with
> our own. Much like the Chinese laborers who've worked on your building.
>
> Believe me I'm not overlooking the ironic fact that I personally have said
> derogatory things about government regulators more than a few times in
> this NG over the years. "Trust me. I'm from the government".
>
> Conservatives like myself - yeah, I am one down deep - believe to the
> bottom of our souls that government has no business telling manufacturers
> how to do business (with a few exceptions). But maybe there's room for
> some government oversight after all and it surely didn't happen in this
> case. A disappointing fact. And it is also disappointing that Toyota
> chose, after voluminous field reports of these incidents to "soldier on"
> and ignore the obvious problem. That was irresponsible. Not the kind of
> behavior I'd expect from a world industrial leader.
>
>> I further suspect that the anaesthetized American drivers didn't think
>> that when a floormat bunches up under a pedal it might interfere with the
>> operation of that pedal.
>
> Yeah yeah yeah. Can we take a break on this "stupid driver" thing? Yes
> there are stupid drivers. I'll stipulate that. I saw one today.
> Yeah --- they're out there.
>
> But now that more facts are coming out it appears this incident may not
> even have anything to do with a floormat Max. Did you know that? And if
> that turns out to be the case then what? Maybe Toyota really really
> really does have a bad design on its hands. A lethal design. And of
> course they don't want to admit it. A final determination has yet to be
> made but for the nonce it appears maybe we were a little too quick to
> point fingers at the stupid cop who didn't know how to handle a car.
>
>> Back in the days of loose mats, we all experienced that and knew enough
>> to pull the mat back into place every now and then. Why is that
>> impossible now?
>
> Uh. See above. The floor mat may not have had anything to do with it.
> Probably didn't, in fact. The Toyota throttle pedal isn't hinged at the
> back. It's a suspended design. If the mat slides forward it might hinder
> the downward movement of the pedal but it's a stretch to imagine it
> holding the pedal to the floor.
>
> If for some reason a Toyota or Lexus driver *does* experience a "throttle
> event" apparently it is not correctable by merely reaching over and
> turning off the ignition and rolling to a stop. Remember --- Toyota's
> official position is that a driver should practice kicking his
> transmission into neutral instead. I would guess the pushbutton start
> circuit may have some bearing on this instruction but I do not know the
> particulars.
>
> Toyota Corporation is stating that it's engineers can find no duplicatable
> type of computer fault that might cause or enable the problem. On the
> other hand they can't say it isn't happening either. And since it's
> happened so often it makes me wonder everytime I see a Toyota in my
> rearview mirror if he's going to run into me and kill me and my family.
>
> For now I just think that on behalf of all highway users --- stupid ones
> as well as smart --- Toyota and Lexus drivers should voluntarily park
> their cars until a solution one way or the other is found.
> --
> Pat
>

" > wrote in message
...
> Max, you certainly have a more reasoned approach to the issue.


The issue isn't who's got the better approach. The issue is that Toyota
has been slow to react to a major, major problem and when pressed about it
has taken the approach that "It's the stupid customer's fault. We're clean.
Don't look at us. We're just the guys who make billions selling this crap.
When the unintended acceleration took place he should have just kicked his
trans into neutral. Everybody knows that. Shees!"

That's scandalous and it shows one thing for certain: Toyota has a crappy
engineering department.

Remember --- these are the same guys who brought us gummed up engines and
rusted frames.

The only thing the public needs to do right now is smell the coffee and
forget any idea that Toyota is somehow better than any other car maker. It
ain't so, McGee. They can and do screw up. And in this case they're
covering up a lethal flaw that apparently had nothing whatsoever to do with
a floor mat.
--
Pat

heres the way they say it happens. but...notice the shape of the pedal? i'm
thinking the pedals are all one piece and do not have the pivot point under
the foot pad that allows it to pivot on the lever, like old style pedals do.
It sounds like the repair is labor only, no new parts included. lets hope
they get it right this time. Check out this quote in the article below:

"The recall is only in the United States. No investigations into unintended
accelerations in Toyota vehicles are underway in Europe, Japan or China,
Michels said today. Toyota has said it has confidence the problem is linked
to floor mats and not a vehicle design flaw or problems related to braking,
fuel or accelerator systems."




November 25, 2009 - 8:19 am ET
UPDATED: 11/25/09 4:21 p.m. ET

Toyota and Lexus dealers will be able to use existing tools to quickly
reshape accelerator pedals on 3.8 million vehicles involved in Toyota Motor
Corp.'s largest U.S. recall, a spokesman said. Spelling out fixes today for
a planned recall announced in late September, Toyota said it would
reconfigure the shape of accelerator pedals to reduce the risk that they may
be jammed in the floor mat and cause unintended acceleration. In addition,
Toyota will replace both first- and second-generation original-equipment
floor mats with a pair of redesigned mats on the seven affected vehicle
lines.

Reshaping the pedals is a temporary fix until replacement pedals
become available -- roughly in April, although exact timing will vary by
vehicle model, Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said. Customers who initially
have their pedals reshaped will then have the option of having them
replaced.

Dealers will receive a template, or "jig," next month, along with
instructions for fixing the pedals, Michels said. Customers will start
getting letters at the end of the year, and dealerships will begin work in
January.

The job involves removing the one-piece pedal assembly and cutting 20
millimeters, or three-fourths of an inch, off the bottom of the pedal's
face, Michels said. The width will also receive a small adjustment.

"That's a simple matter," Michels said. "It doesn't affect any of the
pedal assembly."

The job shouldn't take much time and shouldn't require dealers to get
new tools, he said.

Toyota does not have an estimate of the total cost of the recall,
including paying dealerships for labor, Michels said.

The model years and vehicles involved are the 2004-2009 Prius; the
2005 to 2010 Avalon and Tacoma; the 2007-2010 Camry, Tundra and Lexus ES
350; and the 2006 to 2010 Lexus IS 250 /IS 350.

As part of the action, Toyota will install a brake override system on
the involved Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES 350, IS 350 and IS 250 models "as
an extra measure of confidence." The system will shut off engine power if
drivers press the accelerator pedal and brake pedal simultaneously.

The automaker said it will send first-class letters to owners of the
Camry, ES 350, and Avalon by the end of the year. Owners of the five other
models will be notified throughout 2010.

Plan looks good

A former Toyota engineer who is now with automotive analysis firm
Edmunds.com said in a statement today that the solutions from the recall
should work.

"Our tests have confirmed that an out of position floor mat can cause
the throttle to stick because of the shape and geometry of the current gas
pedal," wrote Dan Edmunds. He served as senior chassis development engineer
for Toyota's Technical Center before joining Edmunds.com in April 2006 as
director of automotive testing.

"Temporarily shortening and replacing the accelerator pedals are
viable solutions to alleviate the problem," Edmunds wrote.

Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, announced plans for the recall
in late September, citing the risk that a loose floor mat could force down
the accelerator, a problem suspected of causing crashes that killed five
people. The recall is only in the United States. No investigations into
unintended accelerations in Toyota vehicles are underway in Europe, Japan or
China, Michels said today.

Toyota has said it has confidence the problem is linked to floor mats
and not a vehicle design flaw or problems related to braking, fuel or
accelerator systems.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has said
discussions included "several vehicle-based" factors that may contribute to
pedal interference and a driver's ability to control and stop the car when
the accelerator gets stuck.

Toyota vs. NHTSA

Earlier this month, Toyota Executive Vice President Yukitoshi Funo
denied allegations the automaker tried to sidestep engineering or design
defects that led to the recall.

His comments came a day after NHTSA rebuked Toyota for issuing
"inaccurate and misleading information" about the safety recall, which
advised drivers to remove floor mats that may potentially jam underneath the
gas pedal and cause unintended acceleration.

A Toyota statement days earlier said NHTSA found "no defect exists in
vehicles with properly installed floor mats." In fact, NHTSA had said Toyota
vehicles have a "very serious defect."

The accelerator and floor design of the vehicles create "the potential
for entrapment of the accelerator by floor mats," said a statement by NHTSA.
It said removing the floor mats is only an interim solution that does not
correct the underlying defect.

Funo said Toyota had "no disagreement on this issue."

In early November, ABC News broadcast interviews with a number of
Toyota drivers who said their vehicles suddenly accelerated out of control
even though their foot depressed the brake and not the gas pedal. ABC cited
reports of 16 acceleration-related deaths and more than 200 accidents.

The floor mat recall was prompted by an Aug. 28 accident involving a
runaway Lexus ES 350 in San Diego that killed four people.

Toyota in late October said it would begin sending letters to owners
urging them to remove the floor mats from their cars while the company
considers what to do to curb unintended acceleration problems.

Hans Greimel, Philip Nussel and Reuters contributed to this report



"Paddy's Pig" > wrote in message
...
> " > wrote in message
> ...
>> Max, you certainly have a more reasoned approach to the issue.
>
>
> The issue isn't who's got the better approach. The issue is that Toyota
> has been slow to react to a major, major problem and when pressed about it
> has taken the approach that "It's the stupid customer's fault. We're
> clean.
> Don't look at us. We're just the guys who make billions selling this
> crap.
> When the unintended acceleration took place he should have just kicked his
> trans into neutral. Everybody knows that. Shees!"
>
> That's scandalous and it shows one thing for certain: Toyota has a crappy
> engineering department.
>
> Remember --- these are the same guys who brought us gummed up engines and
> rusted frames.
>
> The only thing the public needs to do right now is smell the coffee and
> forget any idea that Toyota is somehow better than any other car maker.
> It
> ain't so, McGee. They can and do screw up. And in this case they're
> covering up a lethal flaw that apparently had nothing whatsoever to do
> with
> a floor mat.
> --
> Pat
>
>