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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 21st 16, 05:10 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Frank Baron
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Posts: 44
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
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  #2  
Old December 21st 16, 05:14 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
dpb
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Posts: 27
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?

On 12/21/2016 10:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

....

None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in
tread area.

> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?


All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and
how bad the damage is...
  #3  
Old December 21st 16, 05:38 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Wade Garrett
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Posts: 26
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?

On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>
> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>
> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
> to the sidewall.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>
> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>


Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

--
Make America great again? Hell, I'd be happy if you just made it America
again.
- @KelsowFarlander
  #4  
Old December 21st 16, 06:08 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Meanie
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Posts: 6
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?

On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>
> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>
> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
> to the sidewall.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>
> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>


Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
be a reason it will fail.
  #5  
Old December 21st 16, 07:34 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Frank Baron
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Posts: 44
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised:
>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

>
> All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and
> how bad the damage is...


Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see
below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch.

> None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in
> tread area.


Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can
get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test.

We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny
bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last
groove, and eventually punctured the tire.
http://i.cubeupload.com/09PwHs.jpg

Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6F0CnI.jpg

To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sZ6qxo.jpg

Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UxYLNx.jpg

Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/EMU9zy.jpg

This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series ti
http://i.cubeupload.com/V1dCGA.jpg

To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ra3Prp.jpg

We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery:
http://i.cubeupload.com/M2BHaA.jpg

We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice
the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside:
http://i.cubeupload.com/r0n5WI.jpg

The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QSBXAK.jpg

Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much
nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in
buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the
vulcanizing glue:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QNrRco.jpg

Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/otho8w.jpg

After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BrkYl3.jpg

Where this is what the final patch looked like:
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg

Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn
by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use
the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish
wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better.
  #6  
Old December 21st 16, 07:37 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Frank
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Posts: 19
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?

On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote:
> On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
>> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>>
>> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I
>> patched
>> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>>
>> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
>> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
>> to the sidewall.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>>
>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>>

>
> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>
> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
> be a reason it will fail.


Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.
  #7  
Old December 21st 16, 07:58 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Meanie
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Posts: 6
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?

On 12/21/2016 1:37 PM, Frank wrote:
> On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote:
>> On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
>>> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>>>
>>> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I
>>> patched
>>> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>>>
>>> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
>>> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too
>>> close
>>> to the sidewall.
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>>>
>>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>>>

>>
>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>
>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>> be a reason it will fail.

>
> Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
> tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
> wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.


I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
locations.
  #8  
Old December 21st 16, 08:15 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Frank Baron
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Posts: 44
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:

> Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
> dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)


That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.

Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
something that I *should* be able to do at home.

We should all be able to:
a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
b. Patch a tire at home
c. Balance a wheel at home

I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be
better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).

Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire
was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires
(but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool
with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end):
http://i.cubeupload.com/ngg3X3.jpg

Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be
re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was
before (at least as a starting point):
http://i.cubeupload.com/5Kl0Dy.jpg

Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PouqLx.jpg

Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CIiEKR.jpg

Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/477H02.jpg

Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made
by a bolt that was NOT sharp!
http://i.cubeupload.com/jxxp46.jpg

The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the ti

Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome
because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is
not going to be helpful).

  #9  
Old December 21st 16, 08:31 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Frank Baron
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Posts: 44
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>
> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
> be a reason it will fail.


Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
How close can you get to the edge, and, why.

I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.

Is that correct?

BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug?
http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg

I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy):
http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg

And a bigger patch which was flatter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg

Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush?
http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg

It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this:
http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg

Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg
  #10  
Old December 21st 16, 08:42 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech,sci.electronics.repair
Frank Baron
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Posts: 44
Default How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:

> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
> locations.


I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.

As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel
belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that
the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.
http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg

The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:
http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg

From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:
https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg

From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the
patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?

 




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