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General front end alignment question



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 8th 05, 07:58 PM
James
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Default General front end alignment question

Ok first of all I know this is hard for allot of people to swallow but
the car in question is a front wheel drive 1987 Yugo.

If your curious about my project(s) then check out my webpage.

http://users.chartertn.net/jseabolt/

Yesterday I took the car to the tire store to get new rims and a front
end alignment. But they tell me there is too much play in the front
end and an alignment job would be useless. I was a bit awestruck
considering I went to the trouble of installing new wheel bearings,
control arms and swaybar bushings. I didn't just throw this car
together.

The play is really minimal. It's so minimal I can't even measure it.
I'm having to guess on this one. If I grab the wheel and move it, the
edge of the tire moved about 1/8". The passenger side moves about
1/16".

I personally think the alignment shop is being anal about this. They
are telling me there should be no play whatsoever.

If there was excessive front end play looks to me that it would show
up while driving down the road. At 70 mph, there is no front end shake
whatsoever. The steering wheel doesn't shake at all.

I lifted the front end off the groundm, pulled the wheel and brake
rotor off and tried moving some things. I can't really tell where it's
coming from. But I seem to think it's within the wheel bearings. This
is not the tapered style bearing but a one piece sealled unit. Then
the CV joint goes through it and it secured with an axle nut torqued
to 159 ft lbs. This may be typical but I have never really worked on a
front wheel drive car before so this is new to me.

Just to see how my front end play my Fiat Spider has, I lifted the
front end off the ground and I got just as much if not more play on
it. I installed new wheel bearings about 10,000 miles ago, 2000 miles
ago I installed new tie-rods, center link and the alignment shop said
it was fine, realigned it and it tracks straight.

I had a buddy come over to get his opinion. He couldn't tell where the
play was coming from either. But we came to the conclusion that if we
put a bit more torque on the axle nut it might snug it up some more.

When I originally torqued the axle nuts, I only put 150 ft lbs on it
because that was as high as my torque wrench goes. The shop manual
says 159 ft lbs. He turned the adjustment knob on the wrench an
additional 10 ft lbs. I don't know how accurate doing this is but it
made a difference.

The play now is so minimal, I'm guessing the edge of the tire moves
about 1/16". This is up and down.

With the steering wheel locked, there is more play in the steering
rack. Not that the rack is worn out but the fact that the locking
mechanism in the ignition switch is not preventing the steering from
locking dead tight.

I'm going to check with some mechanics at the plant I work at and see
if they have a torque wrench that goes past 150 ft lbs just to make
absolutely sure I have 159 ft lbs on these axle nuts.

So the question is, how much play is acceptable on a front wheel
drive? Should the hub be so tight that it doesn't move at all?

I'm afraid to overtorque these axle nuts for fear I'm going to damage
something.

Like I said the wheel bearings are not the tapered type like on a RWD
car that come apart. This bearing is a sealed unit that is pressed
into the backside of the hub so I really don't see how even torquing
the nuts further would even make a difference.

Perhaps I did not press the bearings into the hub all the way and the
extra torque applied to the nuts is pulling the bearing toward me
taking up the slack. But I'm almost sure I did.

Once I make absoltuley sure I've got 159 ft lbs on the axle nuts, I'm
going back to the shop and see if they are satisfied and if not I'm
going to take it another shop I trust and see if they are satisified.





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  #2  
Old April 8th 05, 08:08 PM
mjt
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Default

(James >) scribbled:

> So the question is, how much play is acceptable on a front wheel
> drive? Should the hub be so tight that it doesn't move at all?
>
> I'm afraid to overtorque these axle nuts for fear I'm going to damage
> something.
>
> Like I said the wheel bearings are not the tapered type like on a RWD
> car that come apart.


.... you seem to be affixiated with the wheel bearings - those
arent the only part [sic] of the steering and suspension systems.

did the shop SHOW you where the issues were? the shops i go to do.
they take you out and show you, "this ball joint is worn - see?"
this tie rod end is beyond tolerance ... see?" ...

i had this happen just recently at a Firestone store. they showed
me the 2 upper ball joints a single tie rod end, and the idler arm.
then produced a quote for $1300. <sheesh>.

check the tie rod ends, ball joints, bushings, and so on. the wheel
bearings would be the LAST thing i would check.

--
<< http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com (Abandoned Pools - Fluorescein) >>
A king's castle is his home.
  #3  
Old April 8th 05, 08:57 PM
James
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:08:12 -0500, mjt >
wrote:


>... you seem to be affixiated with the wheel bearings - those
>arent the only part [sic] of the steering and suspension systems.


The only other thing I could find where there is play is in the CV
joints. Wheather is be in the outers or inners.

If I pull in and out on each axle, it does move but I was told this is
normal for some play and should not effect the movement in the hubs.

>did the shop SHOW you where the issues were?


They showed me the play in the "wheel" but did not offer any good
suggestions as to where the play was coming from. They said I had
defective wheel bearings. But before I installed new ones, they were
tight.

> the shops i go to do.
>they take you out and show you, "this ball joint is worn - see?"
>this tie rod end is beyond tolerance ... see?" ...


I put this car together and I inspected every component before hand.
If the part appeared to be good (tie rods and steering rack), I
recycled them. I replaced all the rubber bushings (swaybar, control
arms) and ball joints. It did use the axles from a parts car since
they had fewer miles.

>i had this happen just recently at a Firestone store. they showed
>me the 2 upper ball joints a single tie rod end, and the idler arm.
>then produced a quote for $1300. <sheesh>.


I had this one shop align my 68 Fairlane and did such a bad job at
inspecting the front end before hand I had to take it back to them and
complain. This time they find another bad ball joint and bad idler arm
bushings. Which were in fact bad but a qualified shop should have seen
this. That's why I don't fool with this shop anymore.

>check the tie rod ends, ball joints, bushings, and so on. the wheel
>bearings would be the LAST thing i would check.


So if I have tight tie rods, new ball joints, new bushings and new
wheel bearings what else could it be? CV joints?



  #4  
Old April 8th 05, 09:08 PM
mjt
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Default

(James >) scribbled:

> >check the tie rod ends, ball joints, bushings, and so on. the wheel
> >bearings would be the LAST thing i would check.

>
> So if I have tight tie rods, new ball joints, new bushings and new
> wheel bearings what else could it be? CV joints?


.... it sounds like you've got it about covered. of course,
if the wheel bearings were loose, and you've adjusted them,
then all should be fine.

many of these shops dont make money on the alignment: they
make their money on the discoveries of defective parts. if
you do go back, and they complain about "loose parts", tell
them you want to SEE which parts are moving (besides the
wheel bearings). in my case, they wheeled me out in the
shop and used their pliers and huge screwdrivers and pulled
and yanked and you could see that the parts were out of
tolerance.

it's funny they missed my upper control-arm bushings - i
mean, i do have 198k miles will all orig front end parts

if you dont want to go to that same shop, try another for
comparison purposes. if nothing else, you get free advice
on what to fix

--
<< http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com (Abandoned Pools - Fluorescein) >>
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success. - Christopher Lascl
  #5  
Old April 8th 05, 10:01 PM
Mike Romain
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Posts: n/a
Default

If you have 1/8" and 1/16" play, you have problems. I think I would be
looking close at the torque and preset on the ball joints, it sounds
like you have missed something serious.

If you are only 10 lb off on the axle nuts, that isn't the trouble.
Tighter won't help. The CV's have zip to do with this.

You have a screwed up tie rod end(s) or you missed the boat when
installing those ball joints. They are 'very' picky about having the
seat perfect and the preload torque right etc....

The shop is correct by the way, it is useless to try to allign it with
loose parts or 'any' play at all.

I did the front end on my Jeep, all of it and 4 years later I still have
no play.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

James wrote:
>
> Ok first of all I know this is hard for allot of people to swallow but
> the car in question is a front wheel drive 1987 Yugo.
>
> If your curious about my project(s) then check out my webpage.
>
> http://users.chartertn.net/jseabolt/
>
> Yesterday I took the car to the tire store to get new rims and a front
> end alignment. But they tell me there is too much play in the front
> end and an alignment job would be useless. I was a bit awestruck
> considering I went to the trouble of installing new wheel bearings,
> control arms and swaybar bushings. I didn't just throw this car
> together.
>
> The play is really minimal. It's so minimal I can't even measure it.
> I'm having to guess on this one. If I grab the wheel and move it, the
> edge of the tire moved about 1/8". The passenger side moves about
> 1/16".
>
> I personally think the alignment shop is being anal about this. They
> are telling me there should be no play whatsoever.
>
> If there was excessive front end play looks to me that it would show
> up while driving down the road. At 70 mph, there is no front end shake
> whatsoever. The steering wheel doesn't shake at all.
>
> I lifted the front end off the groundm, pulled the wheel and brake
> rotor off and tried moving some things. I can't really tell where it's
> coming from. But I seem to think it's within the wheel bearings. This
> is not the tapered style bearing but a one piece sealled unit. Then
> the CV joint goes through it and it secured with an axle nut torqued
> to 159 ft lbs. This may be typical but I have never really worked on a
> front wheel drive car before so this is new to me.
>
> Just to see how my front end play my Fiat Spider has, I lifted the
> front end off the ground and I got just as much if not more play on
> it. I installed new wheel bearings about 10,000 miles ago, 2000 miles
> ago I installed new tie-rods, center link and the alignment shop said
> it was fine, realigned it and it tracks straight.
>
> I had a buddy come over to get his opinion. He couldn't tell where the
> play was coming from either. But we came to the conclusion that if we
> put a bit more torque on the axle nut it might snug it up some more.
>
> When I originally torqued the axle nuts, I only put 150 ft lbs on it
> because that was as high as my torque wrench goes. The shop manual
> says 159 ft lbs. He turned the adjustment knob on the wrench an
> additional 10 ft lbs. I don't know how accurate doing this is but it
> made a difference.
>
> The play now is so minimal, I'm guessing the edge of the tire moves
> about 1/16". This is up and down.
>
> With the steering wheel locked, there is more play in the steering
> rack. Not that the rack is worn out but the fact that the locking
> mechanism in the ignition switch is not preventing the steering from
> locking dead tight.
>
> I'm going to check with some mechanics at the plant I work at and see
> if they have a torque wrench that goes past 150 ft lbs just to make
> absolutely sure I have 159 ft lbs on these axle nuts.
>
> So the question is, how much play is acceptable on a front wheel
> drive? Should the hub be so tight that it doesn't move at all?
>
> I'm afraid to overtorque these axle nuts for fear I'm going to damage
> something.
>
> Like I said the wheel bearings are not the tapered type like on a RWD
> car that come apart. This bearing is a sealed unit that is pressed
> into the backside of the hub so I really don't see how even torquing
> the nuts further would even make a difference.
>
> Perhaps I did not press the bearings into the hub all the way and the
> extra torque applied to the nuts is pulling the bearing toward me
> taking up the slack. But I'm almost sure I did.
>
> Once I make absoltuley sure I've got 159 ft lbs on the axle nuts, I'm
> going back to the shop and see if they are satisfied and if not I'm
> going to take it another shop I trust and see if they are satisified.

  #6  
Old April 9th 05, 03:15 AM
James Seabolt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message


> You have a screwed up tie rod end(s) or you missed the boat when
> installing those ball joints. They are 'very' picky about having the
> seat perfect and the preload torque right etc....


There is no play in the tie rod ends. They are actually so tight they
seem
almost brand new. I inspected them while making a list for new parts.

When I try moving the hub that the wheel bolts to, the movement
appears to be inside the bearing. Even though they are new. The hub body
itself doesn't not move.
It's the hub that the wheel bolts to that I think is moving.

There are only two ball joints on the front end. The control arm runs
from
body with a bushing/bolt and the ball joint connects to the bottom of
the
hub. The top of the hub connects to the strutt.

I torqued the ball joints to spec.

So I'm still at lose here. Maybe I should just take it to another shop
and let them diagnoise it since the previous shop said I had bad "new"
wheel bearings.



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  #7  
Old April 9th 05, 03:30 AM
« Paul »
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Default

Yugo wheel bearings

I have never seen a Yugo. However, other FWD vehicles usually
have a hub with bearings that ridgedly bolt to the piece between
ball joints (or stut). The hub does not move except for rotational.
The CV axle is fastened with a large nut to the splines in the
hub. Further tightening up the axle nut should do nothing since
it normally does not hold the hub on.
Sounds like the bearings are bad.
  #8  
Old April 9th 05, 03:46 AM
mjt
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Default

("=AB Paul =BB" <" >) scribbled:

[snip]
> Sounds like the bearings are bad.


the OP says they are new

<< shrugs >>

--=20
<< http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com (Abandoned Pools - Fluorescein) >>
Failure is more frequently from want of energy than want of capital.
 




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