How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised:

> Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
> tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
> wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up
that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these
"radial" body plies.
http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspens...irecutaway.gif

If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of
the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body
plies". Is that right?
https://www.treaddepot.com/assets/im...truction-1.png

On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:
>
>> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
>> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
>> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
>> locations.
>
> I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
> in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.
>
> As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel
> belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that
> the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.
> http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg
>
> The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:
> http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg
>
> From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:
> https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg
>
> From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the
> patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?
>
>

That was my point.

On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:
>
>> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
>> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
>> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
>> locations.
>
> I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
> in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.
>

You're correct, my apologies.


> As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel
> belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that
> the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.
> http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg
>
> The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:
> http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg
>
> From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:
> https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg
>
> From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the
> patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?
>
>

On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
>
>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>
>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>> be a reason it will fail.
>
> Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
> How close can you get to the edge, and, why.
>

Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a
repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area.
My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires
in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and
because service shops will not or just to save a few buck.

Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they
differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive
brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls
than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also,
low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
higher sidewall tires.


> I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
> I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.

Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.
>
> Is that correct?
>
> BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg
>
> I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy):
> http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg
>
> And a bigger patch which was flatter:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg
>
> Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg
>
> It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg
>
> Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush:
> http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg
>

A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also
recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is
important to ensure that proper prep is performed.

In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.
There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
a patch/plug is better.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007
if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside
out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out
from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.
http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg
You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some
straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the
area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush
with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie > wrote:

>On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
>> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>>
>> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
>> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>>
>> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
>> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
>> to the sidewall.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>>
>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>>
>
>Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>
>If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>be a reason it will fail.
An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen.
I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid
up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank <"frank > wrote:

>On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote:
>> On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
>>> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg
>>>
>>> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I
>>> patched
>>> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg
>>>
>>> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
>>> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
>>> to the sidewall.
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg
>>>
>>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
>>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
>>> Is it that the patch will flex too much?
>>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?
>>>
>>
>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>
>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>> be a reason it will fail.
>
>Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
>tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
>wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.
And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause
problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie > wrote:

>On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
>>
>>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>>
>>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>>> be a reason it will fail.
>>
>> Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
>> How close can you get to the edge, and, why.
>>
>
>Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
>left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a
>repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area.
>My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires
>in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and
>because service shops will not or just to save a few buck.
>
>Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they
>differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive
>brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls
>than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also,
>low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
>higher sidewall tires.
>
>
>> I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
>> I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.
>
>Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
>portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
>along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.

Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture
Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
area.

A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.
>>
snipped
>In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
>to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.
>There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
>a patch/plug is better.

According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot
just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from
the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. I'll
plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as
soon as possible.
>http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007
>if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside
>out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out
>from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.
>http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg
>You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some
>straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the
>area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush
>with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.
>

On 12/21/2016 5:18 PM, wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie > wrote:
>
>> On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:
>>>
>>>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
>>>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
>>>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.
>>>>
>>>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
>>>> be a reason it will fail.
>>>
>>> Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
>>> How close can you get to the edge, and, why.
>>>
>>
>> Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
>> left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a
>> repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area.
>> My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires
>> in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and
>> because service shops will not or just to save a few buck.
>>
>> Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they
>> differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive
>> brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls
>> than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also,
>> low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
>> higher sidewall tires.
>>
>>
>>> I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
>>> I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.
>>
>> Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
>> portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
>> along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.
>
> Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
> manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
> on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
> non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
> of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture
> Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
> of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
> the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
> area.
>
> A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
> even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
> our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
> tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.


I agree about the damage a tire can do

Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or
painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or
plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet
to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. Not
saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I
won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in
place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and
warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.

I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money
while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford
to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good
product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but
it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the
100% success rate thus far.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:51:17 -0500, advised:

> An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen.
> I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid
> up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle.

That's good advice except it's not usable advice unless you actually think
the plug-and-then-patch repairs I made are "a disaster waiting to happen".

It's like saying "don't run with scissors", which is great advice, but
essentially not useful advice.

What I'm looking for is useful advice, particularly with respect to my
technique. I agree with you that a single-piece patch-plug is superior to
my two piece arrangement but other than that, what do you see "unsafe"
about my plug-and-then-patch method?

The whole point is to find out if this method is a safe patch.

To help you advise me, I provided plenty of pictures of the plug and then
patch which, I think, is a valid patch [except for the tread wear (which is
a separate issue unrelated to the patch itself)].

Here is what is underneath the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg

Here is the final repair on the inside (using a big patch):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg

Here is the final repair on the inside (using a small patch):
http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg

Other than the treadwear, did you see anything unsafe in my patch
technique?

a. Location of patch
b. Patch materials
c. Patch technique

Or is it all safe?

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:18:30 -0500, advised:

> Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
> manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
> on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
> non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
> of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture

Thanks for that detail that the edge of the steel belt is different than
the middle of the steel belt. That may be why I think I've heard tire
repair guys saying they can't patch within so many inches of the edge, even
if it's still in the "tread" area.

> Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
> of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
> the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
> area.

Thank you for that detail because that's essentially why I asked the
question. So we're looking at an inch (to remember it easily) from the edge
of the tread on both sides.

> A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
> even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
> our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
> tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.

I have seen "alligators" on the road, mostly from truck tires, probably
from re-surfaced tires, probably on the inside tire of a dual-tire setup,
which must flap like a sonofabitch when they come off!

> According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot
> just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from
> the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage.

This industry (RMA?) recommendation makes sense, and I agree with your
statement that both a plug and a patch should be made and the inside of the
tire should be visibly inspected.

For one, someone could have driven on the tire such that the belts are
protruding from the inside. In this case, I didn't see such damage on the
five test tires, but it could have been there.


> I'll
> plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as
> soon as possible.

I agree with you that an external plug in an emergency is an expediency
that most of us would do. I'd even patch a sidewall, if that's what it took
to get off the road. (Dunno if that's even possible though.)