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Weird intermittent flat battery problem



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 21st 06, 04:14 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem

Normally my battery starts my car first time every time - as it has every
day for the past seven years.

However three times over the past couple of months, the battery has been
dead: although there's enough power to light the ignition light, as soon as
I try to start the engine, the ignition light dims almost to extinction and
the engine barely turns over.

Each time, as soon as I've jump-started the car from a neighbour's car,
there's enough power in the battery to restart the engine, within just a
minute or so.

The outside temperature was about 15-20 deg C (about 60-70 deg F) so it's
not related to the effect of freezing-cold weather on the battery or on the
viscosity of the engine oil.

I've had the battery tested at three different garages and they all say that
it's holding its charge well and doesn't appear to have a dead/dying cell,
and the voltage with the engine running appears to show that the alternator
is charging the battery. The battery is about 3 years old.

One garage said that if the battery really had been dead enough not to turn
the engine over (eg if I'd left my headlights on overnight), it would have
taken about half an hour of running to charge it enough to operate the
starter motor. They said the fact that even just a minute or so after
jump-starting, the battery is able to start the engine unaided suggests that
it was never flat in the first place!

The car has a diesel engine, so there will be quite a large current drawn by
the glow plugs in addition to that drawn by the starter motor. Also diesel
engines are harder to turn over. However the battery is correctly rated for
a diesel engine.

I've put an ammeter in series with the battery and with nothing turned on
(and the car door closed to turn the courtesy light off!) I can't detect any
current flow. The courtesy light draws about 500 mA (correct for a 6W bulb)
and the sidelights draw about 2A (correct for 4x 6W bulbs).

In case it's relevant, the car is a 1999 Peugeot 306 HDi.

I'm reluctant to change the battery unless this really is the cause. Can
anyone offer any suggestions?


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  #2  
Old June 21st 06, 04:32 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem

I would clean the battery cables first. Don't forget that the cables
have 2 ends...

A corroded connection on one of those cables can cause intermittent
troubles like you are seeing.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Martin Underwood wrote:
>
> Normally my battery starts my car first time every time - as it has every
> day for the past seven years.
>
> However three times over the past couple of months, the battery has been
> dead: although there's enough power to light the ignition light, as soon as
> I try to start the engine, the ignition light dims almost to extinction and
> the engine barely turns over.
>
> Each time, as soon as I've jump-started the car from a neighbour's car,
> there's enough power in the battery to restart the engine, within just a
> minute or so.
>
> The outside temperature was about 15-20 deg C (about 60-70 deg F) so it's
> not related to the effect of freezing-cold weather on the battery or on the
> viscosity of the engine oil.
>
> I've had the battery tested at three different garages and they all say that
> it's holding its charge well and doesn't appear to have a dead/dying cell,
> and the voltage with the engine running appears to show that the alternator
> is charging the battery. The battery is about 3 years old.
>
> One garage said that if the battery really had been dead enough not to turn
> the engine over (eg if I'd left my headlights on overnight), it would have
> taken about half an hour of running to charge it enough to operate the
> starter motor. They said the fact that even just a minute or so after
> jump-starting, the battery is able to start the engine unaided suggests that
> it was never flat in the first place!
>
> The car has a diesel engine, so there will be quite a large current drawn by
> the glow plugs in addition to that drawn by the starter motor. Also diesel
> engines are harder to turn over. However the battery is correctly rated for
> a diesel engine.
>
> I've put an ammeter in series with the battery and with nothing turned on
> (and the car door closed to turn the courtesy light off!) I can't detect any
> current flow. The courtesy light draws about 500 mA (correct for a 6W bulb)
> and the sidelights draw about 2A (correct for 4x 6W bulbs).
>
> In case it's relevant, the car is a 1999 Peugeot 306 HDi.
>
> I'm reluctant to change the battery unless this really is the cause. Can
> anyone offer any suggestions?

  #3  
Old June 21st 06, 05:11 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem


A little better explanation.

As the plates in the grid detiorate over the years, conductive material
builds at the bottom of the battery. When it gets deep enough to touch
the bottom of the grid, and cause a conductive connection between two
plates, those two are effectively shorted. The battery can't do much in
this condition, there isn't correct continuity within it. When the
battery is moved, the debris will sometimes resettle and the battery
will suddenly come to life...

Same with charging, the current applied to the battery causes an
overloading of the sediment connection, overloading it and causing it
to fail, like a fuse. The battery is now in correct condition, and will
test as if it is fully charged and fine.

This can sometimes lead to explosions on jumpstarting when you produce
an arc, as shorting produces loads of hydrogen sulfide gas, so don't
fart around with it...replace it


--
jeffcoslacker
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  #4  
Old June 21st 06, 06:20 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem

jeffcoslacker wrote in message
:

> A little better explanation.
>
> As the plates in the grid detiorate over the years, conductive
> material builds at the bottom of the battery. When it gets deep
> enough to touch the bottom of the grid, and cause a conductive
> connection between two plates, those two are effectively shorted. The
> battery can't do much in this condition, there isn't correct
> continuity within it. When the battery is moved, the debris will
> sometimes resettle and the battery will suddenly come to life...
>
> Same with charging, the current applied to the battery causes an
> overloading of the sediment connection, overloading it and causing it
> to fail, like a fuse. The battery is now in correct condition, and
> will test as if it is fully charged and fine.
>
> This can sometimes lead to explosions on jumpstarting when you produce
> an arc, as shorting produces loads of hydrogen sulfide gas, so don't
> fart around with it...replace it


OK. I can see how this sediment could produce an intermittent problem.
Presumably the sedimentation will build up when the car is not used for a
few days, and then will be dispersed either due to the vibration of driving
or by the act of charging it when the engine is running. I presume that the
formation of sediment is irreversable.

When I jump start, I always attach the final terminal of the jump leads at
the donor battery rather than the dead battery in case hydrogen[*] is
produced at the dead battery which an arc could ignite.

Interesting that none of the garages or car-spares places that I've taken
the car to have mentioned about sediment. You'd think they would have done,
if they'd been aware of the concept, since it's in their interest to try and
sell me a new battery. Unfortunately the battery is a sealed type (doesn't
need distilled water adding to the electrolyte) so there's no way that a
garage could test the electrolyte to see if there are traces of sediment, to
confirm if this is the problem.

However you've convinced me that the battery is dying, if not actually dead
yet. I'll have to go out and buy a new battery - "only" £70 (about $110).
And this time I'll go for one with a warranty that lasts for more than 2
years ;-)


[*] I *think* it's hydrogen rather than hydrogen sulphide - the latter is
instantly detectable (by the nose!) and I don't think it's flammable. But I
could be wrong.


  #5  
Old June 21st 06, 11:06 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem


"Martin Underwood" <a@b> wrote in message
...
> jeffcoslacker wrote in message
> :
>
> > A little better explanation.
> >
> > As the plates in the grid detiorate over the years, conductive
> > material builds at the bottom of the battery. When it gets deep
> > enough to touch the bottom of the grid, and cause a conductive
> > connection between two plates, those two are effectively shorted. The
> > battery can't do much in this condition, there isn't correct
> > continuity within it. When the battery is moved, the debris will
> > sometimes resettle and the battery will suddenly come to life...
> >
> > Same with charging, the current applied to the battery causes an
> > overloading of the sediment connection, overloading it and causing it
> > to fail, like a fuse. The battery is now in correct condition, and
> > will test as if it is fully charged and fine.
> >
> > This can sometimes lead to explosions on jumpstarting when you produce
> > an arc, as shorting produces loads of hydrogen sulfide gas, so don't
> > fart around with it...replace it

>
> OK. I can see how this sediment could produce an intermittent problem.
> Presumably the sedimentation will build up when the car is not used for a
> few days, and then will be dispersed either due to the vibration of

driving
> or by the act of charging it when the engine is running. I presume that

the
> formation of sediment is irreversable.
>
> When I jump start, I always attach the final terminal of the jump leads at
> the donor battery rather than the dead battery in case hydrogen[*] is
> produced at the dead battery which an arc could ignite.
>
> Interesting that none of the garages or car-spares places that I've taken
> the car to have mentioned about sediment. You'd think they would have

done,
> if they'd been aware of the concept, since it's in their interest to try

and
> sell me a new battery. Unfortunately the battery is a sealed type (doesn't
> need distilled water adding to the electrolyte) so there's no way that a
> garage could test the electrolyte to see if there are traces of sediment,

to
> confirm if this is the problem.
>
> However you've convinced me that the battery is dying, if not actually

dead
> yet. I'll have to go out and buy a new battery - "only" £70 (about $110).
> And this time I'll go for one with a warranty that lasts for more than 2
> years ;-)
>
>
>
>[*] I *think* it's hydrogen rather than hydrogen sulphide - the latter is
> instantly detectable (by the nose!) and I don't think it's flammable. But

I
> could be wrong.
>
>


Both recent replies to your post are good information. Sediment
intermittently shorting out cells is a very rare occurrence but it does
happen. Corroded terminals on the other hand are quite common and both will
cause the symptoms you described. My suggestion would be to buy a new
battery and clean all the battery cable connections. Then you will be done
with it and can have piece of mind knowing that the problem has been fixed.
BTW, you are correct in assuming that sediment problems can not be corrected
with out rebuilding the battery.
--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green



  #6  
Old June 22nd 06, 02:56 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem


"Kevin" > wrote in message
news:npjmg.57913$9c6.36638@dukeread11...
>
> "Martin Underwood" <a@b> wrote in message
> ...
>> jeffcoslacker wrote in message
>> :
>>
>> > A little better explanation.
>> >
>> > As the plates in the grid detiorate over the years, conductive
>> > material builds at the bottom of the battery. When it gets deep
>> > enough to touch the bottom of the grid, and cause a conductive
>> > connection between two plates, those two are effectively shorted. The
>> > battery can't do much in this condition, there isn't correct
>> > continuity within it. When the battery is moved, the debris will
>> > sometimes resettle and the battery will suddenly come to life...
>> >
>> > Same with charging, the current applied to the battery causes an
>> > overloading of the sediment connection, overloading it and causing it
>> > to fail, like a fuse. The battery is now in correct condition, and
>> > will test as if it is fully charged and fine.
>> >
>> > This can sometimes lead to explosions on jumpstarting when you produce
>> > an arc, as shorting produces loads of hydrogen sulfide gas, so don't
>> > fart around with it...replace it

>>
>> OK. I can see how this sediment could produce an intermittent problem.
>> Presumably the sedimentation will build up when the car is not used for a
>> few days, and then will be dispersed either due to the vibration of

> driving
>> or by the act of charging it when the engine is running. I presume that

> the
>> formation of sediment is irreversable.
>>
>> When I jump start, I always attach the final terminal of the jump leads
>> at
>> the donor battery rather than the dead battery in case hydrogen[*] is
>> produced at the dead battery which an arc could ignite.
>>
>> Interesting that none of the garages or car-spares places that I've taken
>> the car to have mentioned about sediment. You'd think they would have

> done,
>> if they'd been aware of the concept, since it's in their interest to try

> and
>> sell me a new battery. Unfortunately the battery is a sealed type
>> (doesn't
>> need distilled water adding to the electrolyte) so there's no way that a
>> garage could test the electrolyte to see if there are traces of sediment,

> to
>> confirm if this is the problem.
>>
>> However you've convinced me that the battery is dying, if not actually

> dead
>> yet. I'll have to go out and buy a new battery - "only" £70 (about $110).
>> And this time I'll go for one with a warranty that lasts for more than 2
>> years ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>[*] I *think* it's hydrogen rather than hydrogen sulphide - the latter is
>> instantly detectable (by the nose!) and I don't think it's flammable. But

> I
>> could be wrong.
>>
>>

>
> Both recent replies to your post are good information. Sediment
> intermittently shorting out cells is a very rare occurrence but it does
> happen. Corroded terminals on the other hand are quite common and both
> will
> cause the symptoms you described. My suggestion would be to buy a new
> battery and clean all the battery cable connections. Then you will be done
> with it and can have piece of mind knowing that the problem has been
> fixed.
> BTW, you are correct in assuming that sediment problems can not be
> corrected
> with out rebuilding the battery.


OK, Kevin, another wild/theoretical question: I've never done it, but
have heard once in a half-century (+) of working on cars that such a battery
can be placed in a paint-shaker & shaken "back to life". I assume from your
replies that you are too much a pro to revert to such a tactic; however,
have you ever heard of such? s


  #7  
Old June 22nd 06, 03:14 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem


"sdlomi2" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kevin" > wrote in message
> news:npjmg.57913$9c6.36638@dukeread11...
> >
> > "Martin Underwood" <a@b> wrote in message
> > ...
> >> jeffcoslacker wrote in message
> >> :
> >>
> >> > A little better explanation.
> >> >
> >> > As the plates in the grid detiorate over the years, conductive
> >> > material builds at the bottom of the battery. When it gets deep
> >> > enough to touch the bottom of the grid, and cause a conductive
> >> > connection between two plates, those two are effectively shorted. The
> >> > battery can't do much in this condition, there isn't correct
> >> > continuity within it. When the battery is moved, the debris will
> >> > sometimes resettle and the battery will suddenly come to life...
> >> >
> >> > Same with charging, the current applied to the battery causes an
> >> > overloading of the sediment connection, overloading it and causing it
> >> > to fail, like a fuse. The battery is now in correct condition, and
> >> > will test as if it is fully charged and fine.
> >> >
> >> > This can sometimes lead to explosions on jumpstarting when you

produce
> >> > an arc, as shorting produces loads of hydrogen sulfide gas, so don't
> >> > fart around with it...replace it
> >>
> >> OK. I can see how this sediment could produce an intermittent problem.
> >> Presumably the sedimentation will build up when the car is not used for

a
> >> few days, and then will be dispersed either due to the vibration of

> > driving
> >> or by the act of charging it when the engine is running. I presume that

> > the
> >> formation of sediment is irreversable.
> >>
> >> When I jump start, I always attach the final terminal of the jump leads
> >> at
> >> the donor battery rather than the dead battery in case hydrogen[*] is
> >> produced at the dead battery which an arc could ignite.
> >>
> >> Interesting that none of the garages or car-spares places that I've

taken
> >> the car to have mentioned about sediment. You'd think they would have

> > done,
> >> if they'd been aware of the concept, since it's in their interest to

try
> > and
> >> sell me a new battery. Unfortunately the battery is a sealed type
> >> (doesn't
> >> need distilled water adding to the electrolyte) so there's no way that

a
> >> garage could test the electrolyte to see if there are traces of

sediment,
> > to
> >> confirm if this is the problem.
> >>
> >> However you've convinced me that the battery is dying, if not actually

> > dead
> >> yet. I'll have to go out and buy a new battery - "only" £70 (about

$110).
> >> And this time I'll go for one with a warranty that lasts for more than

2
> >> years ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>[*] I *think* it's hydrogen rather than hydrogen sulphide - the latter

is
> >> instantly detectable (by the nose!) and I don't think it's flammable.

But
> > I
> >> could be wrong.
> >>
> >>

> >
> > Both recent replies to your post are good information. Sediment
> > intermittently shorting out cells is a very rare occurrence but it does
> > happen. Corroded terminals on the other hand are quite common and both
> > will
> > cause the symptoms you described. My suggestion would be to buy a new
> > battery and clean all the battery cable connections. Then you will be

done
> > with it and can have piece of mind knowing that the problem has been
> > fixed.
> > BTW, you are correct in assuming that sediment problems can not be
> > corrected
> > with out rebuilding the battery.

>
> OK, Kevin, another wild/theoretical question: I've never done it, but
> have heard once in a half-century (+) of working on cars that such a

battery
> can be placed in a paint-shaker & shaken "back to life". I assume from

your
> replies that you are too much a pro to revert to such a tactic; however,
> have you ever heard of such? s
>
>


HA HA HA! Thirty years ago my Dad used to empty out old batteries, fill them
with water, shake the sediment out, rinse them again several times then
refill with electrolyte. Every now and then one would actually work and have
another year or two of useful life. Of course that was back when batteries
were twice their present size and the plates were a lot thicker and spaced
farther apart. Modern batteries are ultra compact and have plates as thin as
paper. Shaking one up usually breaks up the plates and makes the condition
even worse. Guess you wouldn't have anything to loose by trying it, but
don't get your hopes up, and be careful of acid and explosive gassing.
--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green


  #8  
Old June 22nd 06, 04:33 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem


"Kevin" > wrote in message
news:J2nmg.57928$9c6.6482@dukeread11...
>
> "sdlomi2" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kevin" > wrote in message
>> news:npjmg.57913$9c6.36638@dukeread11...
>> >
>> > "Martin Underwood" <a@b> wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> jeffcoslacker wrote in message
>> >> :
>> >>
>> >> > A little better explanation.
>> >> >
>> >> > As the plates in the grid detiorate over the years, conductive
>> >> > material builds at the bottom of the battery. When it gets deep
>> >> > enough to touch the bottom of the grid, and cause a conductive
>> >> > connection between two plates, those two are effectively shorted.
>> >> > The
>> >> > battery can't do much in this condition, there isn't correct
>> >> > continuity within it. When the battery is moved, the debris will
>> >> > sometimes resettle and the battery will suddenly come to life...
>> >> >
>> >> > Same with charging, the current applied to the battery causes an
>> >> > overloading of the sediment connection, overloading it and causing
>> >> > it
>> >> > to fail, like a fuse. The battery is now in correct condition, and
>> >> > will test as if it is fully charged and fine.
>> >> >
>> >> > This can sometimes lead to explosions on jumpstarting when you

> produce
>> >> > an arc, as shorting produces loads of hydrogen sulfide gas, so don't
>> >> > fart around with it...replace it
>> >>
>> >> OK. I can see how this sediment could produce an intermittent problem.
>> >> Presumably the sedimentation will build up when the car is not used
>> >> for

> a
>> >> few days, and then will be dispersed either due to the vibration of
>> > driving
>> >> or by the act of charging it when the engine is running. I presume
>> >> that
>> > the
>> >> formation of sediment is irreversable.
>> >>
>> >> When I jump start, I always attach the final terminal of the jump
>> >> leads
>> >> at
>> >> the donor battery rather than the dead battery in case hydrogen[*] is
>> >> produced at the dead battery which an arc could ignite.
>> >>
>> >> Interesting that none of the garages or car-spares places that I've

> taken
>> >> the car to have mentioned about sediment. You'd think they would have
>> > done,
>> >> if they'd been aware of the concept, since it's in their interest to

> try
>> > and
>> >> sell me a new battery. Unfortunately the battery is a sealed type
>> >> (doesn't
>> >> need distilled water adding to the electrolyte) so there's no way that

> a
>> >> garage could test the electrolyte to see if there are traces of

> sediment,
>> > to
>> >> confirm if this is the problem.
>> >>
>> >> However you've convinced me that the battery is dying, if not actually
>> > dead
>> >> yet. I'll have to go out and buy a new battery - "only" £70 (about

> $110).
>> >> And this time I'll go for one with a warranty that lasts for more than

> 2
>> >> years ;-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>[*] I *think* it's hydrogen rather than hydrogen sulphide - the latter

> is
>> >> instantly detectable (by the nose!) and I don't think it's flammable.

> But
>> > I
>> >> could be wrong.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Both recent replies to your post are good information. Sediment
>> > intermittently shorting out cells is a very rare occurrence but it does
>> > happen. Corroded terminals on the other hand are quite common and both
>> > will
>> > cause the symptoms you described. My suggestion would be to buy a new
>> > battery and clean all the battery cable connections. Then you will be

> done
>> > with it and can have piece of mind knowing that the problem has been
>> > fixed.
>> > BTW, you are correct in assuming that sediment problems can not be
>> > corrected
>> > with out rebuilding the battery.

>>
>> OK, Kevin, another wild/theoretical question: I've never done it, but
>> have heard once in a half-century (+) of working on cars that such a

> battery
>> can be placed in a paint-shaker & shaken "back to life". I assume from

> your
>> replies that you are too much a pro to revert to such a tactic; however,
>> have you ever heard of such? s
>>
>>

>
> HA HA HA! Thirty years ago my Dad used to empty out old batteries, fill
> them
> with water, shake the sediment out, rinse them again several times then
> refill with electrolyte. Every now and then one would actually work and
> have
> another year or two of useful life. Of course that was back when batteries
> were twice their present size and the plates were a lot thicker and spaced
> farther apart. Modern batteries are ultra compact and have plates as thin
> as
> paper. Shaking one up usually breaks up the plates and makes the condition
> even worse. Guess you wouldn't have anything to loose by trying it, but
> don't get your hopes up, and be careful of acid and explosive gassing.
> --
> Kevin Mouton
> Automotive Technology Instructor


Actually, I was trying to tempt YOU into this experiment!!! sam


  #9  
Old June 22nd 06, 05:43 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem


I still suggest, just buy a new battery and save the grief, LOL.


--
Knifeblade_03
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=581854

http://www.automotiveforums.com

  #10  
Old June 22nd 06, 06:09 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weird intermittent flat battery problem

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:56:30 -0400, "sdlomi2" >
wrote:


>
> OK, Kevin, another wild/theoretical question: I've never done it, but
>have heard once in a half-century (+) of working on cars that such a battery
>can be placed in a paint-shaker & shaken "back to life". I assume from your
>replies that you are too much a pro to revert to such a tactic; however,
>have you ever heard of such? s
>


Don't laugh. I've seen a 10+ year old battery still going strong in an
identical environment where they would previously last 2. How? A silly
little device that "shocks" the battery. Basically, the concept is to
keep the plates clean by stunning it with high voltage. It unloads a
capacitor to overcharge the battery for a split second.

I would have been inclined to add this to the list of automotive snake
oils if I didn't know the highly qualified tech dealing with the fleet
of vehicles they were testing this on.

So, shaking it may have the same effect, supposing you could shake it
hard enough..... Let me know how that works out for you, huh? Me, I'm
too lazy. I run them until they die, then buy a new one.....

 




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