Kidding was RIGHT!!?? Holy ****....

Ogawd, it pains me to say this, but Kidding was right.... about
everything.... ESP his ROI.....

I'm SO chagrined, so egg-faced, I feel I need to catharsize myself
pubically....

Here's how it went:

So ahm idling my miserable effing life away, musing over
Fits'n'Volts'n'**** -- ACHING, PINING away for my very own Volt'n'**** --
and ruminating over my Conspiratorial Paranoid notions of improper
contextualization'n'****, obsessing over mpgs'n'****.... butt again.

So ahm wonderin, Just what IS the mpg of a vehicle that can switch between
all-electric and all-ICE? And how does that compare with my lowly Fit,
which, well, cain't switch between ****??

So I set up scenarios of multiples of 10,000 miles/year of driving.

Ahm figgerin 90 mpge equivalent all-electric, and 30 mpg all-ICE (CR got 32
mpg, figger I'd round off).

So at 10,000 mile/year, you CAN get 90 mpg. Not bad, for a 3800 lb
boat......

At 20,000 miles/yr, this drops precipitously, tho, to 45 mpg. And Nooo,
Kidding, you cain't just add 90+30 and divide by two.... email me, and I'll
do the calc's for you.
At 30,000 mi/yr, this drops to 38 mpg.
40,000, 36 mpg
50,000, 34 mpg
And so on, asymptotically until you hit 30 mpg....

While, just fyi, the Fit stays at 40 mpg.... go figger, eh?

So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit and
the Volt in that mile range.
So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off the
engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly, what
I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip, eh?

OK....
So the Volt DOES beat the Fit by an avg of 5 mpg. Heh, Angst's first bitch
slapping....

So now to figger out how much this is worth.

When all net'd out, Kidding paid about double what I paid for the Fit, $30K
vs. $15K, in round numbers, for a difference of $15K, proly a bit more with
taxes'n'****, but we'll just do round numbers. We'll neglect the fact that
I can haul a TON of **** in my Fit, that it's dert cheap to keep, AND can
blister up hills at 70 mph, with its ossumous108 hp ICE....
AND, it has a battery the size of a Yamaha dert bike, so if I wanted to save
even more $$, I could just string a bunch of D cells together... No
lithium, of course, but I'll live..
'course, Kidding can buy a baker's dozen of Volt's, but we'll figger he's
just driving one at a time for now....

Anyway,
So, over 20,000 miles, I burn 500 gals of gas.
Kidding burns 444 gals, for a savings of 56 gals/yr, or about $200 a year.
$200 is a lot of money.... it's about, well..... 56 gallons of gas! Or a
Yankee game -- but without any beer.

Now the Q is, Well, he paid $15,000 to save $200/yr, so how long does it
take to make that $15K back?
$15,000/$200 is.... hmmm..... 75 years??? Holy ****.....
I done been bitch-slapped by Kidding once again!!!
I JUST posted in my last response to Kidding that he would never ever EVER
realize an ROI over my Fit, and here it is, he WILL realize an ROI, in about
75 years!!
Actually, it's much longer than 75 years, if you account for present, future
value of currencies yakkety yak, but dat **** gets too complicated, and I
lost my HP financial calculator.

NOW, some of you may say, Sheeit, 75 years is a LOOOOOONG time!!!!
I say, Naaay, you short-sighted Mutha****as, it may be a long time to YOU,
but to the frugal (well, like Moi and Bruhthuh Kidding), every nickel makes
a knuckle, every mickle makes a muckle, and every fickle makes a ****head.
Etc.
Even tho Kidding will be long dead and gone in 75 years, I'm sure his
accountant could arrange for his useless urchinous chilluns to benefit from
that Volt ROI over the lowly Fit. Hopefully they won't fight over their
inherited ROI.....

Of course, there is the very minor technical detail of keeping his Volt
running for another 75 years, but that's just a technical detail, which I'm
sure Kidding, with his multitude of superior talents, will easily
accomplish.
And in 20 years, he can get historical plates and cheap insurance, and save
even more money -- the gift that keeps on giving, eh?
Course, all the new Li-cobalt oxide-euthenium-iridium battery replacements
over that time might extend the ROI to 150 years, but hey, why be selfish,
that way, his useless urchinous great-great-grandchilluns can share in this
ROI. And hopefully they won't fight over their inherited ROI, either.
Estate planning, donchaknow....

But here's the REALLY good news for Kidding.

If we compare yearly mileages of 10,000 miles, where the Volt really shines
and gets a goodly 90 mpge, that ROI shrinks down to.... 28 years!!!!!
Holy ****.... I been bitch-slapped AGAIN!!!!
And, holy ****, Kidding just might make it another 28 years, and if there
is a Gawd, Kidding will croak on the VERY DAY he completes his oh-so
precious ROI over the Fit, and THEN he won't have to give his useless
urchinous chilluns SQUAT......

So I stand corrected -- butt again. The Volt DOES have an ROI over pure ICE
cars -- at least over the Fit..
So when Kidding whizzes by a gas station, and screams
Looookeee, Mommy, Looookeeee, I'm passing another gas station!!!!,

he can righteously and bellicosely add to that,
AND, you Doubting Mutha****as, I'll get my mutha****in money back in 75
fukn years, BITCHES!!!!!

And he's absolutely correck. Well, mebbe 150 years, but sheeit, ROI is ROI.

I'll never doubt Kidding again. And nor should y'all.
I AM Kidding's bitch, and I'm PROUD to be his bitch. I just hope simpleton
Plimpleton can handle it.....
--
EA

On Tuesday, June 25, 2013 4:43:59 PM UTC-5, Existential Angst wrote:
> Ogawd, it pains me to say this, but Kidding was right.... about
>
> everything.... ESP his ROI.....
>
>
>
> I'm SO chagrined, so egg-faced, I feel I need to catharsize myself
>
> pubically....
>
>
>
> Here's how it went:
>
>
>
> So ahm idling my miserable effing life away, musing over
>
> Fits'n'Volts'n'**** -- ACHING, PINING away for my very own Volt'n'**** --
>
> and ruminating over my Conspiratorial Paranoid notions of improper
>
> contextualization'n'****, obsessing over mpgs'n'****.... butt again.
>
>
>
> So ahm wonderin, Just what IS the mpg of a vehicle that can switch between
>
> all-electric and all-ICE? And how does that compare with my lowly Fit,
>
> which, well, cain't switch between ****??
>
>
>
> So I set up scenarios of multiples of 10,000 miles/year of driving.
>
>
>
> Ahm figgerin 90 mpge equivalent all-electric, and 30 mpg all-ICE (CR got 32
>
> mpg, figger I'd round off).
>
>
>
> So at 10,000 mile/year, you CAN get 90 mpg. Not bad, for a 3800 lb
>
> boat......
>
>
>
> At 20,000 miles/yr, this drops precipitously, tho, to 45 mpg. And Nooo,
>
> Kidding, you cain't just add 90+30 and divide by two.... email me, and I'll
>
> do the calc's for you.
>
> At 30,000 mi/yr, this drops to 38 mpg.
>
> 40,000, 36 mpg
>
> 50,000, 34 mpg
>
> And so on, asymptotically until you hit 30 mpg....
>
>
>
> While, just fyi, the Fit stays at 40 mpg.... go figger, eh?
>
>
>
> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit and
>
> the Volt in that mile range.
>
> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
>
> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off the
>
> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>
> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly, what
>
> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip, eh?
>
>
>
> OK....
>
> So the Volt DOES beat the Fit by an avg of 5 mpg. Heh, Angst's first bitch
>
> slapping....
>
>
>
> So now to figger out how much this is worth.
>
>
>
> When all net'd out, Kidding paid about double what I paid for the Fit, $30K
>
> vs. $15K, in round numbers, for a difference of $15K, proly a bit more with
>
> taxes'n'****, but we'll just do round numbers. We'll neglect the fact that
>
> I can haul a TON of **** in my Fit, that it's dert cheap to keep, AND can
>
> blister up hills at 70 mph, with its ossumous108 hp ICE....
>
> AND, it has a battery the size of a Yamaha dert bike, so if I wanted to save
>
> even more $$, I could just string a bunch of D cells together... No
>
> lithium, of course, but I'll live..
>
> 'course, Kidding can buy a baker's dozen of Volt's, but we'll figger he's
>
> just driving one at a time for now....
>
>
>
> Anyway,
>
> So, over 20,000 miles, I burn 500 gals of gas.
>
> Kidding burns 444 gals, for a savings of 56 gals/yr, or about $200 a year.
>
> $200 is a lot of money.... it's about, well..... 56 gallons of gas! Or a
>
> Yankee game -- but without any beer.
>
>
>
> Now the Q is, Well, he paid $15,000 to save $200/yr, so how long does it
>
> take to make that $15K back?
>
> $15,000/$200 is.... hmmm..... 75 years??? Holy ****.....
>
> I done been bitch-slapped by Kidding once again!!!
>
> I JUST posted in my last response to Kidding that he would never ever EVER
>
> realize an ROI over my Fit, and here it is, he WILL realize an ROI, in about
>
> 75 years!!
>
> Actually, it's much longer than 75 years, if you account for present, future
>
> value of currencies yakkety yak, but dat **** gets too complicated, and I
>
> lost my HP financial calculator.
>
>
>
> NOW, some of you may say, Sheeit, 75 years is a LOOOOOONG time!!!!
>
> I say, Naaay, you short-sighted Mutha****as, it may be a long time to YOU,
>
> but to the frugal (well, like Moi and Bruhthuh Kidding), every nickel makes
>
> a knuckle, every mickle makes a muckle, and every fickle makes a ****head.
>
> Etc.
>
> Even tho Kidding will be long dead and gone in 75 years, I'm sure his
>
> accountant could arrange for his useless urchinous chilluns to benefit from
>
> that Volt ROI over the lowly Fit. Hopefully they won't fight over their
>
> inherited ROI.....
>
>
>
> Of course, there is the very minor technical detail of keeping his Volt
>
> running for another 75 years, but that's just a technical detail, which I'm
>
> sure Kidding, with his multitude of superior talents, will easily
>
> accomplish.
>
> And in 20 years, he can get historical plates and cheap insurance, and save
>
> even more money -- the gift that keeps on giving, eh?
>
> Course, all the new Li-cobalt oxide-euthenium-iridium battery replacements
>
> over that time might extend the ROI to 150 years, but hey, why be selfish,
>
> that way, his useless urchinous great-great-grandchilluns can share in this
>
> ROI. And hopefully they won't fight over their inherited ROI, either.
>
> Estate planning, donchaknow....
>
>
>
> But here's the REALLY good news for Kidding.
>
>
>
> If we compare yearly mileages of 10,000 miles, where the Volt really shines
>
> and gets a goodly 90 mpge, that ROI shrinks down to.... 28 years!!!!!
>
> Holy ****.... I been bitch-slapped AGAIN!!!!
>
> And, holy ****, Kidding just might make it another 28 years, and if there
>
> is a Gawd, Kidding will croak on the VERY DAY he completes his oh-so
>
> precious ROI over the Fit, and THEN he won't have to give his useless
>
> urchinous chilluns SQUAT......
>
>
>
> So I stand corrected -- butt again. The Volt DOES have an ROI over pure ICE
>
> cars -- at least over the Fit..
>
> So when Kidding whizzes by a gas station, and screams
>
> Looookeee, Mommy, Looookeeee, I'm passing another gas station!!!!,
>
>
>
> he can righteously and bellicosely add to that,
>
> AND, you Doubting Mutha****as, I'll get my mutha****in money back in 75
>
> fukn years, BITCHES!!!!!
>
>
>
> And he's absolutely correck. Well, mebbe 150 years, but sheeit, ROI is ROI.
>
>
>
> I'll never doubt Kidding again. And nor should y'all.
>
> I AM Kidding's bitch, and I'm PROUD to be his bitch. I just hope simpleton
>
> Plimpleton can handle it.....
>
> --
>
> EA

No matter how you look at it, you will 'burn' a bunch of money.

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:43:59 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:

> Ogawd, it pains me to say this, but Kidding was right.... about
> everything.... ESP his ROI.....
>
> I'm SO chagrined, so egg-faced, I feel I need to catharsize myself
> pubically....
>
> Here's how it went:
>
> So ahm idling my miserable effing life away, musing over
> Fits'n'Volts'n'**** -- ACHING, PINING away for my very own Volt'n'****
> -- and ruminating over my Conspiratorial Paranoid notions of improper
> contextualization'n'****, obsessing over mpgs'n'****.... butt again.
>
> So ahm wonderin, Just what IS the mpg of a vehicle that can switch
> between all-electric and all-ICE? And how does that compare with my
> lowly Fit, which, well, cain't switch between ****??
>
> So I set up scenarios of multiples of 10,000 miles/year of driving.
>
> Ahm figgerin 90 mpge equivalent all-electric, and 30 mpg all-ICE (CR got
> 32 mpg, figger I'd round off).
>
> So at 10,000 mile/year, you CAN get 90 mpg. Not bad, for a 3800 lb
> boat......
>
> At 20,000 miles/yr, this drops precipitously, tho, to 45 mpg. And
> Nooo, Kidding, you cain't just add 90+30 and divide by two.... email
> me, and I'll do the calc's for you.
> At 30,000 mi/yr, this drops to 38 mpg.
> 40,000, 36 mpg 50,000, 34 mpg And so on, asymptotically until you hit
> 30 mpg....
>
> While, just fyi, the Fit stays at 40 mpg.... go figger, eh?
>
> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit
> and the Volt in that mile range.
> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off the
> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly,
> what I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip,
> eh?
>
> OK....
> So the Volt DOES beat the Fit by an avg of 5 mpg. Heh, Angst's first
> bitch slapping....
>
> So now to figger out how much this is worth.
>
> When all net'd out, Kidding paid about double what I paid for the Fit,
> $30K vs. $15K, in round numbers, for a difference of $15K, proly a bit
> more with taxes'n'****, but we'll just do round numbers. We'll neglect
> the fact that I can haul a TON of **** in my Fit, that it's dert cheap
> to keep, AND can blister up hills at 70 mph, with its ossumous108 hp
> ICE....
> AND, it has a battery the size of a Yamaha dert bike, so if I wanted to
> save even more $$, I could just string a bunch of D cells together...
> No lithium, of course, but I'll live..
> 'course, Kidding can buy a baker's dozen of Volt's, but we'll figger
> he's just driving one at a time for now....
>
> Anyway,
> So, over 20,000 miles, I burn 500 gals of gas.
> Kidding burns 444 gals, for a savings of 56 gals/yr, or about $200 a
> year. $200 is a lot of money.... it's about, well..... 56 gallons of
> gas! Or a Yankee game -- but without any beer.
>
> Now the Q is, Well, he paid $15,000 to save $200/yr, so how long does it
> take to make that $15K back?
> $15,000/$200 is.... hmmm..... 75 years??? Holy ****.....
> I done been bitch-slapped by Kidding once again!!!
> I JUST posted in my last response to Kidding that he would never ever
> EVER realize an ROI over my Fit, and here it is, he WILL realize an ROI,
> in about 75 years!!
> Actually, it's much longer than 75 years, if you account for present,
> future value of currencies yakkety yak, but dat **** gets too
> complicated, and I lost my HP financial calculator.
>
> NOW, some of you may say, Sheeit, 75 years is a LOOOOOONG time!!!!
> I say, Naaay, you short-sighted Mutha****as, it may be a long time to
> YOU,
> but to the frugal (well, like Moi and Bruhthuh Kidding), every nickel
> makes a knuckle, every mickle makes a muckle, and every fickle makes a
> ****head. Etc.
> Even tho Kidding will be long dead and gone in 75 years, I'm sure his
> accountant could arrange for his useless urchinous chilluns to benefit
> from that Volt ROI over the lowly Fit. Hopefully they won't fight over
> their inherited ROI.....
>
> Of course, there is the very minor technical detail of keeping his Volt
> running for another 75 years, but that's just a technical detail, which
> I'm sure Kidding, with his multitude of superior talents, will easily
> accomplish.
> And in 20 years, he can get historical plates and cheap insurance, and
> save even more money -- the gift that keeps on giving, eh?
> Course, all the new Li-cobalt oxide-euthenium-iridium battery
> replacements over that time might extend the ROI to 150 years, but hey,
> why be selfish, that way, his useless urchinous
> great-great-grandchilluns can share in this ROI. And hopefully they
> won't fight over their inherited ROI, either. Estate planning,
> donchaknow....
>
> But here's the REALLY good news for Kidding.
>
> If we compare yearly mileages of 10,000 miles, where the Volt really
> shines and gets a goodly 90 mpge, that ROI shrinks down to.... 28
> years!!!!! Holy ****.... I been bitch-slapped AGAIN!!!!
> And, holy ****, Kidding just might make it another 28 years, and if
> there is a Gawd, Kidding will croak on the VERY DAY he completes his
> oh-so precious ROI over the Fit, and THEN he won't have to give his
> useless urchinous chilluns SQUAT......
>
> So I stand corrected -- butt again. The Volt DOES have an ROI over pure
> ICE cars -- at least over the Fit..
> So when Kidding whizzes by a gas station, and screams
> Looookeee, Mommy, Looookeeee, I'm passing another gas station!!!!,
>
> he can righteously and bellicosely add to that,
> AND, you Doubting Mutha****as, I'll get my mutha****in money back in
> 75
> fukn years, BITCHES!!!!!
>
> And he's absolutely correck. Well, mebbe 150 years, but sheeit, ROI is
> ROI.
>
> I'll never doubt Kidding again. And nor should y'all.
> I AM Kidding's bitch, and I'm PROUD to be his bitch. I just hope
> simpleton Plimpleton can handle it.....

You don't need a financial calculator to get a rough idea of the
uselessness of that $200/year on a $15000 car. Just do

interest rate = (100%) * ($200 / $15000).

You get 1.33%. So you get absolutely zero ROI on a 1.33% annual interest
loan, because your $200/year savings just barely pay the interest. And
where, I ask you, are you going to get a 1.33% car loan?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

"Tim Wescott" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:43:59 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:
>
>> Ogawd, it pains me to say this, but Kidding was right.... about
>> everything.... ESP his ROI.....
>>
>> I'm SO chagrined, so egg-faced, I feel I need to catharsize myself
>> pubically....
>>
>> Here's how it went:
>>
>> So ahm idling my miserable effing life away, musing over
>> Fits'n'Volts'n'**** -- ACHING, PINING away for my very own Volt'n'****
>> -- and ruminating over my Conspiratorial Paranoid notions of improper
>> contextualization'n'****, obsessing over mpgs'n'****.... butt again.
>>
>> So ahm wonderin, Just what IS the mpg of a vehicle that can switch
>> between all-electric and all-ICE? And how does that compare with my
>> lowly Fit, which, well, cain't switch between ****??
>>
>> So I set up scenarios of multiples of 10,000 miles/year of driving.
>>
>> Ahm figgerin 90 mpge equivalent all-electric, and 30 mpg all-ICE (CR got
>> 32 mpg, figger I'd round off).
>>
>> So at 10,000 mile/year, you CAN get 90 mpg. Not bad, for a 3800 lb
>> boat......
>>
>> At 20,000 miles/yr, this drops precipitously, tho, to 45 mpg. And
>> Nooo, Kidding, you cain't just add 90+30 and divide by two.... email
>> me, and I'll do the calc's for you.
>> At 30,000 mi/yr, this drops to 38 mpg.
>> 40,000, 36 mpg 50,000, 34 mpg And so on, asymptotically until you hit
>> 30 mpg....
>>
>> While, just fyi, the Fit stays at 40 mpg.... go figger, eh?
>>
>> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit
>> and the Volt in that mile range.
>> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
>> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off the
>> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly,
>> what I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip,
>> eh?
>>
>> OK....
>> So the Volt DOES beat the Fit by an avg of 5 mpg. Heh, Angst's first
>> bitch slapping....
>>
>> So now to figger out how much this is worth.
>>
>> When all net'd out, Kidding paid about double what I paid for the Fit,
>> $30K vs. $15K, in round numbers, for a difference of $15K, proly a bit
>> more with taxes'n'****, but we'll just do round numbers. We'll neglect
>> the fact that I can haul a TON of **** in my Fit, that it's dert cheap
>> to keep, AND can blister up hills at 70 mph, with its ossumous108 hp
>> ICE....
>> AND, it has a battery the size of a Yamaha dert bike, so if I wanted to
>> save even more $$, I could just string a bunch of D cells together...
>> No lithium, of course, but I'll live..
>> 'course, Kidding can buy a baker's dozen of Volt's, but we'll figger
>> he's just driving one at a time for now....
>>
>> Anyway,
>> So, over 20,000 miles, I burn 500 gals of gas.
>> Kidding burns 444 gals, for a savings of 56 gals/yr, or about $200 a
>> year. $200 is a lot of money.... it's about, well..... 56 gallons of
>> gas! Or a Yankee game -- but without any beer.
>>
>> Now the Q is, Well, he paid $15,000 to save $200/yr, so how long does it
>> take to make that $15K back?
>> $15,000/$200 is.... hmmm..... 75 years??? Holy ****.....
>> I done been bitch-slapped by Kidding once again!!!
>> I JUST posted in my last response to Kidding that he would never ever
>> EVER realize an ROI over my Fit, and here it is, he WILL realize an ROI,
>> in about 75 years!!
>> Actually, it's much longer than 75 years, if you account for present,
>> future value of currencies yakkety yak, but dat **** gets too
>> complicated, and I lost my HP financial calculator.
>>
>> NOW, some of you may say, Sheeit, 75 years is a LOOOOOONG time!!!!
>> I say, Naaay, you short-sighted Mutha****as, it may be a long time to
>> YOU,
>> but to the frugal (well, like Moi and Bruhthuh Kidding), every nickel
>> makes a knuckle, every mickle makes a muckle, and every fickle makes a
>> ****head. Etc.
>> Even tho Kidding will be long dead and gone in 75 years, I'm sure his
>> accountant could arrange for his useless urchinous chilluns to benefit
>> from that Volt ROI over the lowly Fit. Hopefully they won't fight over
>> their inherited ROI.....
>>
>> Of course, there is the very minor technical detail of keeping his Volt
>> running for another 75 years, but that's just a technical detail, which
>> I'm sure Kidding, with his multitude of superior talents, will easily
>> accomplish.
>> And in 20 years, he can get historical plates and cheap insurance, and
>> save even more money -- the gift that keeps on giving, eh?
>> Course, all the new Li-cobalt oxide-euthenium-iridium battery
>> replacements over that time might extend the ROI to 150 years, but hey,
>> why be selfish, that way, his useless urchinous
>> great-great-grandchilluns can share in this ROI. And hopefully they
>> won't fight over their inherited ROI, either. Estate planning,
>> donchaknow....
>>
>> But here's the REALLY good news for Kidding.
>>
>> If we compare yearly mileages of 10,000 miles, where the Volt really
>> shines and gets a goodly 90 mpge, that ROI shrinks down to.... 28
>> years!!!!! Holy ****.... I been bitch-slapped AGAIN!!!!
>> And, holy ****, Kidding just might make it another 28 years, and if
>> there is a Gawd, Kidding will croak on the VERY DAY he completes his
>> oh-so precious ROI over the Fit, and THEN he won't have to give his
>> useless urchinous chilluns SQUAT......
>>
>> So I stand corrected -- butt again. The Volt DOES have an ROI over pure
>> ICE cars -- at least over the Fit..
>> So when Kidding whizzes by a gas station, and screams
>> Looookeee, Mommy, Looookeeee, I'm passing another gas station!!!!,
>>
>> he can righteously and bellicosely add to that,
>> AND, you Doubting Mutha****as, I'll get my mutha****in money back in
>> 75
>> fukn years, BITCHES!!!!!
>>
>> And he's absolutely correck. Well, mebbe 150 years, but sheeit, ROI is
>> ROI.
>>
>> I'll never doubt Kidding again. And nor should y'all.
>> I AM Kidding's bitch, and I'm PROUD to be his bitch. I just hope
>> simpleton Plimpleton can handle it.....
>
> You don't need a financial calculator to get a rough idea of the
> uselessness of that $200/year on a $15000 car. Just do
>
> interest rate = (100%) * ($200 / $15000).
>
> You get 1.33%. So you get absolutely zero ROI on a 1.33% annual interest
> loan, because your $200/year savings just barely pay the interest. And
> where, I ask you, are you going to get a 1.33% car loan?

Hmmmm........... Do you mean, are you saying that Kidding should be MY
bitch??
Should he be blowing me, alongside his fancy-schmancy GM engineers??
I think this is in fact a much more "natural order" of things, don't you?
Given Kidding's boys-in-the-band proclivities?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVD39bDowQo the full movie. Pay close
attention to the sweetie with the poodle, that's Emory/Kidding.
I just couldn't imagine myself being Emory's bitch....

Hmmmm...... and mebbe Kidding shouldn't be blowing the Gen1 Volt engineers
anyway, now that GM is backpedaling on price, genset size, weight, and mebbe
even reducing the number of fukn airbags and cupholders..... <brrrrr>
<shiver>.
Holy ****..... mebbe they're gonna get rid of the planetary gear set???
<knees buckling>

Mebbe Kidding should be saving himself for the Gen2 Volt engineers, and grab
his ankles for them??
I wonder how close the Gen2 will be to an AngstMobile?? Without the toggle
switches, of course.
So many questions..... lol
--
EA


>
> --
>
> Tim Wescott
> Wescott Design Services
> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>

Existential Angst wrote:



>
> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit and
> the Volt in that mile range.
> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off the
> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly,
> what
> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip, eh?
Well, you can get a Honda Civic Hybrid for a little over $20K, and I
get up to 57 MPG without much work. I do have a light foot. I drove
3 kids plus myself (and the oldest of that crew outweighs me) about
250 miles to a basketball tournament at got 57 MPG on the highway
at 59 MPH without air conditioning. It was just at the upper range of
comfortable temps. This was flat southern Illinois country, the HCH
does great on that terrain. I just used the cruise control.

Last week I drove 1000 miles on an out of town trip taking about 600 Lbs
of stuff to a show, hotter than hell both ways, and lots of hills
that make it harder to get good mileage. I got about 47 MPG on that
run, mostly around 68 MPH. AC, hills and speed all conspire to
wreck the mileage.

You can almost buy two of the Civic Hybrids for the price of one
Volt, and get good mileage both in town and on long trips.

Jon

"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:17:28 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>
>>On 6/26/2013 7:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
>>> "Jon Elson" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit
>>>>> and
>>>>> the Volt in that mile range.
>>>>> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
>>>>> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off
>>>>> the
>>>>> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>>>>> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly,
>>>>> what
>>>>> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip, eh?
>>>> Well, you can get a Honda Civic Hybrid for a little over $20K, and I
>>>> get up to 57 MPG without much work. I do have a light foot. I drove
>>>> 3 kids plus myself (and the oldest of that crew outweighs me) about
>>>> 250 miles to a basketball tournament at got 57 MPG on the highway
>>>> at 59 MPH without air conditioning. It was just at the upper range of
>>>> comfortable temps. This was flat southern Illinois country, the HCH
>>>> does great on that terrain. I just used the cruise control.
>>>>
>>>> Last week I drove 1000 miles on an out of town trip taking about 600
>>>> Lbs
>>>> of stuff to a show, hotter than hell both ways, and lots of hills
>>>> that make it harder to get good mileage. I got about 47 MPG on that
>>>> run, mostly around 68 MPH. AC, hills and speed all conspire to
>>>> wreck the mileage.
>>>>
>>>> You can almost buy two of the Civic Hybrids for the price of one
>>>> Volt, and get good mileage both in town and on long trips.
>>>
>>> In that case, Kidding would indeed never ever EVER realize an ROI,
>>> unless it
>>> was under the 10,000 mi/yr range.
>>> And then it would be sumpn like 69 years.... lol
>>>
>>> 57 mpg is fantastic; 47 is excellent.
>>> The prius c geekies talk about hitting 68 mpg.
>>> The VW TDI engine supposedly returns mpg's in the mid-fifties, with a
>>> light
>>> foot.
>>> When sumpn like a prius c pushes 70 mpg, 100 mpge electrics -- with all
>>> the
>>> associated prices/visissytudes thereof -- lose quite a bit of their
>>> dazzle.
>>>
>>> And not knockin the Volt. The concept is excellent, the engineering
>>> grand,
>>> the quality apparently very good.... just, the execution and logic was
>>> a
>>> bit off.
>>> But much too much for Kidding to grok, apparently.
>>>
>>
>>I'm sure he sends checks to the State and Fed for the unpaid road taxes.
>> And a check to the EPA for all the coal burned.
>
> Tom, what the hell are you talking about? Oh, you don't know?
>
> If you drive a Volt 40 miles each way to work, that's about 20,000
> miles per year. That's at 94 mpg.

Well, I wouldn't bank on charging yer Volt at work....
AND, it's more like 35 each way....
So really, practically, most people will be limited to 35 all-electric
miles per day.
Still, I want my Gen2.... lol

Oh, another inneresting gas calc.
Suppose one is choosing between an ICE and a plugin.
What premium or upfront extra would you be willing to pay? or SHOULD you
pay?
For what break-even time?

Suppose yer lookin at an $18 K 40 mpg car, w/ gas at $4, 25,000 mi/yr
Suppose your desired breakeven period is 2 years. Personally, I'd like 1
year, but we'll go with two.
Tyipically you'll see 5 and 10 years for **** like windows and solar cells,
but intuitively methinks it should be quicker with cars, given the pounding
they take.

Now suppose the plugin is 100 mpge.
Well, the ice will burn 625 gal/yr, or 1250 for two years, or $5K in gas.
The plugin will burm 250 gal/yr, or 500 for two years, or $2,000 in gas.

The difference being $3,000.

So, considering only gas, your premium for the plugin should be $3,000, or a
$21 K car.
If you are happy with longer ROIs, the price can go up, at about $1,000 per
year delay.

Other factors may enter of course, but they could work either way -- esp.
the battery deterioration/replacement issue, which further disfavors
electrics.

This is just one comparison, but it does illustrate that for an economical
ice (or mostly ice hybrid), the extra mpg are not worth all that much in
up-front premium, at least not at $4/gal.

I say this not to disparage electrics, but to once again be able to sing my
fav effingSwan Song -- get out yer violins, mutha****as, here comes the
Angst Complexity Rant... lol

Even if Lithium-Iridium-Osmium batteries are 'spensive (heh, and heavy),
eliminating the whole ICE and associated drivetrain should really more than
equal the cost of electric components.
We take ICE's for granted, methinks, but matchinists more than anyone else
should appreciate the "machining magic" that goes into these things.
Can you imagine what even a good proto shop would charge for an
ice/transmission built FROM SCRATCH????? Holy ****....
Not too many seem to appreciate this, but the "complexity differential"
between the two, to me, is simply staggering.

Now apparently the tradeoff is NOT even, despite the orderSS of magnitude
higher mechanical complexity of ice over electric, and the Q is Why is the
tradeoff not even?.
1. Well, as you can guess, I believe part of it is the Conspiratorial
Ass****ing.... just like diesel fuel being higher than fuknRegular.
2. The tradeoff is not yet even bec, well, we've been building ice's and
transmissions for a hunnerd years already, so it has evolved into its own
"economical-ness".which is initially hard to compete with.
3. And, of course, new **** is almost always more expensive, altho not
always for good reasons. See (1), for example.

From a mechanical complexity pov of alone, I think it is *inevitable* that
plugins will necessarily be *substantially* cheaper than an ice, at least if
any kind of "electric car infrastructure" takes root. With proper pyooter
control, and one small motor per wheel, you wouldn't even need a steering
linkage!

The big problem is, of course, assholes like Kidding, who raise the fukn
ante for virtually everygoddammthing, with this narcissistic compulsion for
the very very best of everyfuknthing.

NPR/WNYC had an inneresting discussion (Krista Tippet, her Being show) on
the toxicity of the notion of perfection, and how it is used to swamp the
true aesthetic of true functionality, of creative functionality.
Bunhead ballet dancers are perfect example of this, as they have the
tightest effing sphincters of any demographic on the planet, save figure
skaters and gymnasts.
And, for WHAT, exactly? So a tableful of assholes can tally scores, and
give bragging rights for having a score 0.001 points higher than the next
asshole?
Gimme a fukn break, already. And Le Pubic eats this **** up

And so it is with consumer products.

The only people who can rightfully demand perfection are astronauts being
sent to the moon. And not even DAT **** is perfect!!

Anyway, it is this philistinic notion of perfection that hedges the chances
of an AngstMobile being successful. Godfuknforbid you gotta go a li'l
slower up a hill, eh?? God fukn forbid....
The eeriness, craziness of this whole thing is that assholes like Kidding
display their philistinic conspicuous consumption like Elvis in a velour
iridescant suit, like some loud badge of honor, and actually wind up
wielding a lot of influence over other more impressionable assholes.
And the fuknAnte just continually spirals upwards, unrelentingly.

Which is why we have 30 airbags and cupholders on overpriced overweight cars
we can't even begin to fix ourselves anymore. Take-it-to-the-dealer time..
And so we take it up the ass with things like Volts, whose ROI over the
Honder Fit is 75 fukn years, and whose basic function can be emulated by a
bunch of toggle switches.

OK, dats my rant..... you can wake up now.... LOL
--
EA





>
> What? You don't know where 94 mpg comes from? Really? Then what are
> you doing wising off in this thread?
>
> Ask and you'll get the explanation.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:34:39 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> wrote:

>"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:17:28 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>
>>>On 6/26/2013 7:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
>>>> "Jon Elson" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the Fit
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the Volt in that mile range.
>>>>>> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
>>>>>> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>>>>>> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very importantly,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip, eh?
>>>>> Well, you can get a Honda Civic Hybrid for a little over $20K, and I
>>>>> get up to 57 MPG without much work. I do have a light foot. I drove
>>>>> 3 kids plus myself (and the oldest of that crew outweighs me) about
>>>>> 250 miles to a basketball tournament at got 57 MPG on the highway
>>>>> at 59 MPH without air conditioning. It was just at the upper range of
>>>>> comfortable temps. This was flat southern Illinois country, the HCH
>>>>> does great on that terrain. I just used the cruise control.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last week I drove 1000 miles on an out of town trip taking about 600
>>>>> Lbs
>>>>> of stuff to a show, hotter than hell both ways, and lots of hills
>>>>> that make it harder to get good mileage. I got about 47 MPG on that
>>>>> run, mostly around 68 MPH. AC, hills and speed all conspire to
>>>>> wreck the mileage.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can almost buy two of the Civic Hybrids for the price of one
>>>>> Volt, and get good mileage both in town and on long trips.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, Kidding would indeed never ever EVER realize an ROI,
>>>> unless it
>>>> was under the 10,000 mi/yr range.
>>>> And then it would be sumpn like 69 years.... lol
>>>>
>>>> 57 mpg is fantastic; 47 is excellent.
>>>> The prius c geekies talk about hitting 68 mpg.
>>>> The VW TDI engine supposedly returns mpg's in the mid-fifties, with a
>>>> light
>>>> foot.
>>>> When sumpn like a prius c pushes 70 mpg, 100 mpge electrics -- with all
>>>> the
>>>> associated prices/visissytudes thereof -- lose quite a bit of their
>>>> dazzle.
>>>>
>>>> And not knockin the Volt. The concept is excellent, the engineering
>>>> grand,
>>>> the quality apparently very good.... just, the execution and logic was
>>>> a
>>>> bit off.
>>>> But much too much for Kidding to grok, apparently.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'm sure he sends checks to the State and Fed for the unpaid road taxes.
>>> And a check to the EPA for all the coal burned.
>>
>> Tom, what the hell are you talking about? Oh, you don't know?
>>
>> If you drive a Volt 40 miles each way to work, that's about 20,000
>> miles per year. That's at 94 mpg.
>
>Well, I wouldn't bank on charging yer Volt at work....

Two of my last three healthcare clients have charging stations in the
parking lots. Neither one was in use while I was there <g>, but I
asked and both of them have users.

I suspect that a lot of them are out behind the buildings with cords
running from the loading docks.

>AND, it's more like 35 each way....

Hey, if you'll buy a 57 mpg Civic Hybrid (rated 44/44 for the 2012
model, a big improvement from 2011's 40/43, says Honda), you should
have no trouble with a 40-mile-electric Volt. d8-)

>So really, practically, most people will be limited to 35 all-electric
>miles per day.

Most people wouldn't buy one in the first place. But those that do
probably have their strategy mapped out beforehand.

>Still, I want my Gen2.... lol

Figure out how you're going to throttle it, now that we know it won't
be charging the batteries but will be directly powering the electric
motor. Industrial motors and genset motors aren't made to produce
torque throughout their range, nor to respond quickly to a throttle.

>
>Oh, another inneresting gas calc.
>Suppose one is choosing between an ICE and a plugin.
>What premium or upfront extra would you be willing to pay? or SHOULD you
>pay?
>For what break-even time?

It depends entirely on one's driving conditions. As little as I drive,
I would hardly notice the difference in fuel costs if I had a 427
side-oiler in my Focus. 'Sure would be fun for a while, though...

But if cost was everything, we'd all be driving Honda ****boxes...er,
Fits.

That car is well-named, by the way. I think I'd have one if I had one.

>
>Suppose yer lookin at an $18 K 40 mpg car, w/ gas at $4, 25,000 mi/yr
>Suppose your desired breakeven period is 2 years. Personally, I'd like 1
>year, but we'll go with two.
>Tyipically you'll see 5 and 10 years for **** like windows and solar cells,
>but intuitively methinks it should be quicker with cars, given the pounding
>they take.

Well, it isn't, and it won't be. If you drive 40,000 miles, get a
turbodiesel. At $25,000, I'm not sure where the costs break.

If breakeven is your only criterion, you have to drive under very
special circumstances to get a straight payoff with any EV in a short
time. However, I haven't looked at maintenance costs on EVs, but
they're hellish on ICE cars these days.

>
>Now suppose the plugin is 100 mpge.
>Well, the ice will burn 625 gal/yr, or 1250 for two years, or $5K in gas.
>The plugin will burm 250 gal/yr, or 500 for two years, or $2,000 in gas.
>
>The difference being $3,000.
>
>So, considering only gas, your premium for the plugin should be $3,000, or a
>$21 K car.
>If you are happy with longer ROIs, the price can go up, at about $1,000 per
>year delay.

I keep my cars almost 10 years on the average. I'd take the slower
payout. But if I want a better payout, there's always the Ford Fiesta
or the Honda ****box. Maybe I can pre-pay the chiropractor, and factor
that in.

>
>Other factors may enter of course, but they could work either way -- esp.
>the battery deterioration/replacement issue, which further disfavors
>electrics.

And an ugly disfigurement it is. If you want to calculate NPV on a
future battery, you can compare it to Tesla's offer to pay them
$12,000 at the time you buy the car to get a battery that will sell
for something between $20,000 and $25,000 (industry analyst estimates)
when you need it.

>
>This is just one comparison, but it does illustrate that for an economical
>ice (or mostly ice hybrid), the extra mpg are not worth all that much in
>up-front premium, at least not at $4/gal.

EA, comparing the little ****boxes to the Volt is like thinking you'd
like to have fish for dinner, and you're deciding whether it would be
more economical to have frozen fish sticks or fresh-caught wild
salmon. Is cost all that matters?

>
>I say this not to disparage electrics, but to once again be able to sing my
>fav effingSwan Song -- get out yer violins, mutha****as, here comes the
>Angst Complexity Rant... lol
>
>Even if Lithium-Iridium-Osmium batteries are 'spensive (heh, and heavy),
>eliminating the whole ICE and associated drivetrain should really more than
>equal the cost of electric components.
>We take ICE's for granted, methinks, but matchinists more than anyone else
>should appreciate the "machining magic" that goes into these things.

Right. But also consider the production magic. In 2002 or thereabouts,
Honda said their manufacturing cost for a Civic engine, complete and
ready to drop in, was $350. With controllers.

>Can you imagine what even a good proto shop would charge for an
>ice/transmission built FROM SCRATCH????? Holy ****....
>Not too many seem to appreciate this, but the "complexity differential"
>between the two, to me, is simply staggering.
>
>Now apparently the tradeoff is NOT even, despite the orderSS of magnitude
>higher mechanical complexity of ice over electric, and the Q is Why is the
>tradeoff not even?.
>1. Well, as you can guess, I believe part of it is the Conspiratorial
>Ass****ing.... just like diesel fuel being higher than fuknRegular.
>2. The tradeoff is not yet even bec, well, we've been building ice's and
>transmissions for a hunnerd years already, so it has evolved into its own
>"economical-ness".which is initially hard to compete with.

See above.

>3. And, of course, new **** is almost always more expensive, altho not
>always for good reasons. See (1), for example.
>
>From a mechanical complexity pov of alone, I think it is *inevitable* that
>plugins will necessarily be *substantially* cheaper than an ice, at least if
>any kind of "electric car infrastructure" takes root. With proper pyooter
>control, and one small motor per wheel, you wouldn't even need a steering
>linkage!

When you say "plug-ins," do you mean pure electrics? Because a
"plug-in," to most of us, refers to a plug-in hybrid. And hybrids are
the most complicated cars of all.

>
>The big problem is, of course, assholes like Kidding, who raise the fukn
>ante for virtually everygoddammthing, with this narcissistic compulsion for
>the very very best of everyfuknthing.
>
>NPR/WNYC had an inneresting discussion (Krista Tippet, her Being show) on
>the toxicity of the notion of perfection, and how it is used to swamp the
>true aesthetic of true functionality, of creative functionality.
>Bunhead ballet dancers are perfect example of this, as they have the
>tightest effing sphincters of any demographic on the planet, save figure
>skaters and gymnasts.
>And, for WHAT, exactly? So a tableful of assholes can tally scores, and
>give bragging rights for having a score 0.001 points higher than the next
>asshole?
>Gimme a fukn break, already. And Le Pubic eats this **** up
>
>And so it is with consumer products.
>
>The only people who can rightfully demand perfection are astronauts being
>sent to the moon. And not even DAT **** is perfect!!
>
>Anyway, it is this philistinic notion of perfection that hedges the chances
>of an AngstMobile being successful. Godfuknforbid you gotta go a li'l
>slower up a hill, eh?? God fukn forbid....
>The eeriness, craziness of this whole thing is that assholes like Kidding
>display their philistinic conspicuous consumption like Elvis in a velour
>iridescant suit, like some loud badge of honor, and actually wind up
>wielding a lot of influence over other more impressionable assholes.
>And the fuknAnte just continually spirals upwards, unrelentingly.
>
>Which is why we have 30 airbags and cupholders on overpriced overweight cars
>we can't even begin to fix ourselves anymore. Take-it-to-the-dealer time..
>And so we take it up the ass with things like Volts, whose ROI over the
>Honder Fit is 75 fukn years, and whose basic function can be emulated by a
>bunch of toggle switches.

Or a moped. Just how far do you want to go with the comparison?

>
>OK, dats my rant..... you can wake up now.... LOL

Ok. That was a nice nap. d8-)

FWIW, I think you're looking at the situation from an angle that gets
you frustrated, unnecessarily.

You want a Honda Fit? Buy a Honda Fit. You want a Chevy Volt? Buy a
Chevy Volt.

That's the beauty of having so much overcapacity in the automobile
industry: an enormous variety of cars, at prices that any machinist,
who knows what's in there, has to marvel over.

There are several gutless little tin cans available that would warm
the heart of any skinflint Druid, like you and me, at rock-bottom
prices. And if you want a hybrid of some type, for whatever reason,
you can get them in sizes and configurations ranging from the bottom
end through a Lincoln or Lexus SUV, if you really want to get nutty
about it.

IMO, there are only a few serious cars among the hybrid and EV classes
that point in a sensible direction, one that has a potential future
and some legs. The Prius is one. The Leaf is another. And the Volt is
another. Each one is a serious design with a larger potential market.

The most advanced and the one that satisfies the most overlapping
market segments is the Volt. If it wasn't a hybrid, it sounds like it
still wouldn't interest you, because a comfortable family sedan
doesn't sound like your kind of car in the first place.

But if the next stage of hybrids is going to succeed and develop a
real broad-based market, the Volt is it. It sure as hell isn't the
Leaf, or the Tesla. And the hybrids with full-time ICEs, like the
Prius, are at best interim designs that will be obsolete as soon as
somr more battery power is available at a decent price, and the
plug-in feature becomes important.

Meantime, all EV types are looking at the uncertainty in the
petroleum/gas prospects and the builders are wondering where those
markets are really going to go. Given the declining advantage of
regular hybrids with new IC engine types (remember the 4% with
diesels), that doesn't look like it. Unless there is a breakthrough in
batteries, the Leaf is going to be fenced into a very small market.
The Volt looks like the one with the greatest range of possibilities.

I'm sorry you feel left out because it isn't a little tin can with a
lawnmower engine. <g> My feeling is that if that much complexity can
work and be reliable, "simple" is on the way out, too.

But then, so am I. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress, getting older by the moment

"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:34:39 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:17:28 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 6/26/2013 7:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>> "Jon Elson" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the
>>>>>>> Fit
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the Volt in that mile range.
>>>>>>> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
>>>>>>> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>>>>>>> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very
>>>>>>> importantly,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip,
>>>>>>> eh?
>>>>>> Well, you can get a Honda Civic Hybrid for a little over $20K, and I
>>>>>> get up to 57 MPG without much work. I do have a light foot. I drove
>>>>>> 3 kids plus myself (and the oldest of that crew outweighs me) about
>>>>>> 250 miles to a basketball tournament at got 57 MPG on the highway
>>>>>> at 59 MPH without air conditioning. It was just at the upper range
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> comfortable temps. This was flat southern Illinois country, the HCH
>>>>>> does great on that terrain. I just used the cruise control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last week I drove 1000 miles on an out of town trip taking about 600
>>>>>> Lbs
>>>>>> of stuff to a show, hotter than hell both ways, and lots of hills
>>>>>> that make it harder to get good mileage. I got about 47 MPG on that
>>>>>> run, mostly around 68 MPH. AC, hills and speed all conspire to
>>>>>> wreck the mileage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can almost buy two of the Civic Hybrids for the price of one
>>>>>> Volt, and get good mileage both in town and on long trips.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, Kidding would indeed never ever EVER realize an ROI,
>>>>> unless it
>>>>> was under the 10,000 mi/yr range.
>>>>> And then it would be sumpn like 69 years.... lol
>>>>>
>>>>> 57 mpg is fantastic; 47 is excellent.
>>>>> The prius c geekies talk about hitting 68 mpg.
>>>>> The VW TDI engine supposedly returns mpg's in the mid-fifties, with a
>>>>> light
>>>>> foot.
>>>>> When sumpn like a prius c pushes 70 mpg, 100 mpge electrics -- with
>>>>> all
>>>>> the
>>>>> associated prices/visissytudes thereof -- lose quite a bit of their
>>>>> dazzle.
>>>>>
>>>>> And not knockin the Volt. The concept is excellent, the engineering
>>>>> grand,
>>>>> the quality apparently very good.... just, the execution and logic
>>>>> was
>>>>> a
>>>>> bit off.
>>>>> But much too much for Kidding to grok, apparently.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm sure he sends checks to the State and Fed for the unpaid road taxes.
>>>> And a check to the EPA for all the coal burned.
>>>
>>> Tom, what the hell are you talking about? Oh, you don't know?
>>>
>>> If you drive a Volt 40 miles each way to work, that's about 20,000
>>> miles per year. That's at 94 mpg.
>>
>>Well, I wouldn't bank on charging yer Volt at work....
>
> Two of my last three healthcare clients have charging stations in the
> parking lots. Neither one was in use while I was there <g>, but I
> asked and both of them have users.
>
> I suspect that a lot of them are out behind the buildings with cords
> running from the loading docks.
>
>>AND, it's more like 35 each way....
>
> Hey, if you'll buy a 57 mpg Civic Hybrid (rated 44/44 for the 2012
> model, a big improvement from 2011's 40/43, says Honda), you should
> have no trouble with a 40-mile-electric Volt. d8-)
>
>>So really, practically, most people will be limited to 35 all-electric
>>miles per day.
>
> Most people wouldn't buy one in the first place. But those that do
> probably have their strategy mapped out beforehand.
>
>>Still, I want my Gen2.... lol
>
> Figure out how you're going to throttle it, now that we know it won't
> be charging the batteries but will be directly powering the electric
> motor. Industrial motors and genset motors aren't made to produce
> torque throughout their range, nor to respond quickly to a throttle.
>
>>
>>Oh, another inneresting gas calc.
>>Suppose one is choosing between an ICE and a plugin.
>>What premium or upfront extra would you be willing to pay? or SHOULD you
>>pay?
>>For what break-even time?
>
> It depends entirely on one's driving conditions. As little as I drive,
> I would hardly notice the difference in fuel costs if I had a 427
> side-oiler in my Focus. 'Sure would be fun for a while, though...
>
> But if cost was everything, we'd all be driving Honda ****boxes...er,
> Fits.
>

Did you steal that from Moi??
My Honder ****?? lol

> That car is well-named, by the way. I think I'd have one if I had one.

DOOD!!!!
The Honder **** is the DARLING of Consumer Reports!! It is legendarily
roomy, versatile, reliable.
You don't get much respect on the road, but at least people aren't laughing
at me, like at SmartCars.... lol

Along those lines, CR PANS the Prius C, hates it!
YET, it is one of the few cars that gets all three full red dots, ie, the
best possible consumer feedback (reliability, "satisfaction", cost to own).
So CR hates the car that consumers apparently love. Go figger, eh?

I get the impression that people who thumb their noses at "econoboxes" -- at
least today's econoboxes -- insist on a recliner in their effing bathrooms,
replete with a 60" lcd, and vaulted ceilings over the crapper..... Some
people have to be stylish, even while taking a dump....

The CR Prius ditty reminds me of the converse, PC Mags anti-virus shootout.
PC Mag LUVED Symantec AntiVirus, yet user feedback, in that same shootout,
was awful. I called the author of that report to find out whazzup wit dat,
he basically said PC Mag knows better....
Hmmm..... can u say "Advertising Revenue", boyzngerlz??? LOL
I'm amazed they even included that conflicting reader feedback!

Inyway, you should try a Fit, keeping in mind its hauling capacity. Man,
you can fill that car up to the BRIM, amazing. It is actually roomier
inside than my crew cab Frontier!!
Now, iffin yer goin out on a hot date, well, you'll proly get luckier in an
Acura or Infinity or Camaro, but iffin yer goin to HD and Shoprite, and want
Lowest Cost to Own, you need a Fit.

$350 to produce a complete Civic engine????? Holy ****...... Dats like
1 Lithium cell!!!!
And that's exactly the "evolved economical-ness" I was talking about. If
electrics get a foothold, that same economy, and more, should be achieved,
and in a much shorter time.
Depending, of course, on our Conspiratorial Ass****ing..... lol

I agree 100% with your assessment of the Volt. That was, iyr, MOI's
assessement, even before the whole fracas with the circle-jerking Kidding.
It is a GREAT concept!
But over-complexified to the point where..... well, let's put it this way:
Moi wasn't the one who suspended production, or slashed their prices.....
The AngstMobile is the practical answer, which is really just a simpler,
less ambitious Volt!!! Right??

And if one produced the AngstMobile strategically, a buyer could
optional-ize it to give himself a Volt, if dats what he wanted. Incl the
Convertible, so Kidding could drive around with a perpetual 2.5" chubby....
"Back-up genset" can come in all varieites, flavors.

Oh, yer crack about a tin can with lawnmower engine.....
That was ELECTRIC lawnmower engine, right?? LOL
--
EA


>
>>
>>Suppose yer lookin at an $18 K 40 mpg car, w/ gas at $4, 25,000 mi/yr
>>Suppose your desired breakeven period is 2 years. Personally, I'd like 1
>>year, but we'll go with two.
>>Tyipically you'll see 5 and 10 years for **** like windows and solar
>>cells,
>>but intuitively methinks it should be quicker with cars, given the
>>pounding
>>they take.
>
> Well, it isn't, and it won't be. If you drive 40,000 miles, get a
> turbodiesel. At $25,000, I'm not sure where the costs break.
>
> If breakeven is your only criterion, you have to drive under very
> special circumstances to get a straight payoff with any EV in a short
> time. However, I haven't looked at maintenance costs on EVs, but
> they're hellish on ICE cars these days.
>
>>
>>Now suppose the plugin is 100 mpge.
>>Well, the ice will burn 625 gal/yr, or 1250 for two years, or $5K in gas.
>>The plugin will burm 250 gal/yr, or 500 for two years, or $2,000 in gas.
>>
>>The difference being $3,000.
>>
>>So, considering only gas, your premium for the plugin should be $3,000, or
>>a
>>$21 K car.
>>If you are happy with longer ROIs, the price can go up, at about $1,000
>>per
>>year delay.
>
> I keep my cars almost 10 years on the average. I'd take the slower
> payout. But if I want a better payout, there's always the Ford Fiesta
> or the Honda ****box. Maybe I can pre-pay the chiropractor, and factor
> that in.
>
>>
>>Other factors may enter of course, but they could work either way -- esp.
>>the battery deterioration/replacement issue, which further disfavors
>>electrics.
>
> And an ugly disfigurement it is. If you want to calculate NPV on a
> future battery, you can compare it to Tesla's offer to pay them
> $12,000 at the time you buy the car to get a battery that will sell
> for something between $20,000 and $25,000 (industry analyst estimates)
> when you need it.
>
>>
>>This is just one comparison, but it does illustrate that for an economical
>>ice (or mostly ice hybrid), the extra mpg are not worth all that much in
>>up-front premium, at least not at $4/gal.
>
> EA, comparing the little ****boxes to the Volt is like thinking you'd
> like to have fish for dinner, and you're deciding whether it would be
> more economical to have frozen fish sticks or fresh-caught wild
> salmon. Is cost all that matters?
>
>>
>>I say this not to disparage electrics, but to once again be able to sing
>>my
>>fav effingSwan Song -- get out yer violins, mutha****as, here comes the
>>Angst Complexity Rant... lol
>>
>>Even if Lithium-Iridium-Osmium batteries are 'spensive (heh, and heavy),
>>eliminating the whole ICE and associated drivetrain should really more
>>than
>>equal the cost of electric components.
>>We take ICE's for granted, methinks, but matchinists more than anyone else
>>should appreciate the "machining magic" that goes into these things.
>
> Right. But also consider the production magic. In 2002 or thereabouts,
> Honda said their manufacturing cost for a Civic engine, complete and
> ready to drop in, was $350. With controllers.
>
>>Can you imagine what even a good proto shop would charge for an
>>ice/transmission built FROM SCRATCH????? Holy ****....
>>Not too many seem to appreciate this, but the "complexity differential"
>>between the two, to me, is simply staggering.
>>
>>Now apparently the tradeoff is NOT even, despite the orderSS of magnitude
>>higher mechanical complexity of ice over electric, and the Q is Why is the
>>tradeoff not even?.
>>1. Well, as you can guess, I believe part of it is the Conspiratorial
>>Ass****ing.... just like diesel fuel being higher than fuknRegular.
>>2. The tradeoff is not yet even bec, well, we've been building ice's and
>>transmissions for a hunnerd years already, so it has evolved into its own
>>"economical-ness".which is initially hard to compete with.
>
> See above.
>
>>3. And, of course, new **** is almost always more expensive, altho not
>>always for good reasons. See (1), for example.
>>
>>From a mechanical complexity pov of alone, I think it is *inevitable* that
>>plugins will necessarily be *substantially* cheaper than an ice, at least
>>if
>>any kind of "electric car infrastructure" takes root. With proper
>>pyooter
>>control, and one small motor per wheel, you wouldn't even need a steering
>>linkage!
>
> When you say "plug-ins," do you mean pure electrics? Because a
> "plug-in," to most of us, refers to a plug-in hybrid. And hybrids are
> the most complicated cars of all.
>
>>
>>The big problem is, of course, assholes like Kidding, who raise the fukn
>>ante for virtually everygoddammthing, with this narcissistic compulsion
>>for
>>the very very best of everyfuknthing.
>>
>>NPR/WNYC had an inneresting discussion (Krista Tippet, her Being show) on
>>the toxicity of the notion of perfection, and how it is used to swamp the
>>true aesthetic of true functionality, of creative functionality.
>>Bunhead ballet dancers are perfect example of this, as they have the
>>tightest effing sphincters of any demographic on the planet, save figure
>>skaters and gymnasts.
>>And, for WHAT, exactly? So a tableful of assholes can tally scores, and
>>give bragging rights for having a score 0.001 points higher than the next
>>asshole?
>>Gimme a fukn break, already. And Le Pubic eats this **** up
>>
>>And so it is with consumer products.
>>
>>The only people who can rightfully demand perfection are astronauts being
>>sent to the moon. And not even DAT **** is perfect!!
>>
>>Anyway, it is this philistinic notion of perfection that hedges the
>>chances
>>of an AngstMobile being successful. Godfuknforbid you gotta go a li'l
>>slower up a hill, eh?? God fukn forbid....
>>The eeriness, craziness of this whole thing is that assholes like Kidding
>>display their philistinic conspicuous consumption like Elvis in a velour
>>iridescant suit, like some loud badge of honor, and actually wind up
>>wielding a lot of influence over other more impressionable assholes.
>>And the fuknAnte just continually spirals upwards, unrelentingly.
>>
>>Which is why we have 30 airbags and cupholders on overpriced overweight
>>cars
>>we can't even begin to fix ourselves anymore. Take-it-to-the-dealer
>>time..
>>And so we take it up the ass with things like Volts, whose ROI over the
>>Honder Fit is 75 fukn years, and whose basic function can be emulated by a
>>bunch of toggle switches.
>
> Or a moped. Just how far do you want to go with the comparison?
>
>>
>>OK, dats my rant..... you can wake up now.... LOL
>
> Ok. That was a nice nap. d8-)
>
> FWIW, I think you're looking at the situation from an angle that gets
> you frustrated, unnecessarily.
>
> You want a Honda Fit? Buy a Honda Fit. You want a Chevy Volt? Buy a
> Chevy Volt.
>
> That's the beauty of having so much overcapacity in the automobile
> industry: an enormous variety of cars, at prices that any machinist,
> who knows what's in there, has to marvel over.
>
> There are several gutless little tin cans available that would warm
> the heart of any skinflint Druid, like you and me, at rock-bottom
> prices. And if you want a hybrid of some type, for whatever reason,
> you can get them in sizes and configurations ranging from the bottom
> end through a Lincoln or Lexus SUV, if you really want to get nutty
> about it.
>
> IMO, there are only a few serious cars among the hybrid and EV classes
> that point in a sensible direction, one that has a potential future
> and some legs. The Prius is one. The Leaf is another. And the Volt is
> another. Each one is a serious design with a larger potential market.
>
> The most advanced and the one that satisfies the most overlapping
> market segments is the Volt. If it wasn't a hybrid, it sounds like it
> still wouldn't interest you, because a comfortable family sedan
> doesn't sound like your kind of car in the first place.
>
> But if the next stage of hybrids is going to succeed and develop a
> real broad-based market, the Volt is it. It sure as hell isn't the
> Leaf, or the Tesla. And the hybrids with full-time ICEs, like the
> Prius, are at best interim designs that will be obsolete as soon as
> somr more battery power is available at a decent price, and the
> plug-in feature becomes important.
>
> Meantime, all EV types are looking at the uncertainty in the
> petroleum/gas prospects and the builders are wondering where those
> markets are really going to go. Given the declining advantage of
> regular hybrids with new IC engine types (remember the 4% with
> diesels), that doesn't look like it. Unless there is a breakthrough in
> batteries, the Leaf is going to be fenced into a very small market.
> The Volt looks like the one with the greatest range of possibilities.
>
> I'm sorry you feel left out because it isn't a little tin can with a
> lawnmower engine. <g> My feeling is that if that much complexity can
> work and be reliable, "simple" is on the way out, too.
>
> But then, so am I. d8-)
>
> --
> Ed Huntress, getting older by the moment
>
>

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:21:04 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> wrote:

>"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:34:39 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:17:28 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 6/26/2013 7:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>>> "Jon Elson" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the
>>>>>>>> Fit
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the Volt in that mile range.
>>>>>>>> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course, I
>>>>>>>> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut off
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>>>>>>>> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very
>>>>>>>> importantly,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip,
>>>>>>>> eh?
>>>>>>> Well, you can get a Honda Civic Hybrid for a little over $20K, and I
>>>>>>> get up to 57 MPG without much work. I do have a light foot. I drove
>>>>>>> 3 kids plus myself (and the oldest of that crew outweighs me) about
>>>>>>> 250 miles to a basketball tournament at got 57 MPG on the highway
>>>>>>> at 59 MPH without air conditioning. It was just at the upper range
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> comfortable temps. This was flat southern Illinois country, the HCH
>>>>>>> does great on that terrain. I just used the cruise control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last week I drove 1000 miles on an out of town trip taking about 600
>>>>>>> Lbs
>>>>>>> of stuff to a show, hotter than hell both ways, and lots of hills
>>>>>>> that make it harder to get good mileage. I got about 47 MPG on that
>>>>>>> run, mostly around 68 MPH. AC, hills and speed all conspire to
>>>>>>> wreck the mileage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can almost buy two of the Civic Hybrids for the price of one
>>>>>>> Volt, and get good mileage both in town and on long trips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case, Kidding would indeed never ever EVER realize an ROI,
>>>>>> unless it
>>>>>> was under the 10,000 mi/yr range.
>>>>>> And then it would be sumpn like 69 years.... lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 57 mpg is fantastic; 47 is excellent.
>>>>>> The prius c geekies talk about hitting 68 mpg.
>>>>>> The VW TDI engine supposedly returns mpg's in the mid-fifties, with a
>>>>>> light
>>>>>> foot.
>>>>>> When sumpn like a prius c pushes 70 mpg, 100 mpge electrics -- with
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> associated prices/visissytudes thereof -- lose quite a bit of their
>>>>>> dazzle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And not knockin the Volt. The concept is excellent, the engineering
>>>>>> grand,
>>>>>> the quality apparently very good.... just, the execution and logic
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> bit off.
>>>>>> But much too much for Kidding to grok, apparently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm sure he sends checks to the State and Fed for the unpaid road taxes.
>>>>> And a check to the EPA for all the coal burned.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, what the hell are you talking about? Oh, you don't know?
>>>>
>>>> If you drive a Volt 40 miles each way to work, that's about 20,000
>>>> miles per year. That's at 94 mpg.
>>>
>>>Well, I wouldn't bank on charging yer Volt at work....
>>
>> Two of my last three healthcare clients have charging stations in the
>> parking lots. Neither one was in use while I was there <g>, but I
>> asked and both of them have users.
>>
>> I suspect that a lot of them are out behind the buildings with cords
>> running from the loading docks.
>>
>>>AND, it's more like 35 each way....
>>
>> Hey, if you'll buy a 57 mpg Civic Hybrid (rated 44/44 for the 2012
>> model, a big improvement from 2011's 40/43, says Honda), you should
>> have no trouble with a 40-mile-electric Volt. d8-)
>>
>>>So really, practically, most people will be limited to 35 all-electric
>>>miles per day.
>>
>> Most people wouldn't buy one in the first place. But those that do
>> probably have their strategy mapped out beforehand.
>>
>>>Still, I want my Gen2.... lol
>>
>> Figure out how you're going to throttle it, now that we know it won't
>> be charging the batteries but will be directly powering the electric
>> motor. Industrial motors and genset motors aren't made to produce
>> torque throughout their range, nor to respond quickly to a throttle.
>>
>>>
>>>Oh, another inneresting gas calc.
>>>Suppose one is choosing between an ICE and a plugin.
>>>What premium or upfront extra would you be willing to pay? or SHOULD you
>>>pay?
>>>For what break-even time?
>>
>> It depends entirely on one's driving conditions. As little as I drive,
>> I would hardly notice the difference in fuel costs if I had a 427
>> side-oiler in my Focus. 'Sure would be fun for a while, though...
>>
>> But if cost was everything, we'd all be driving Honda ****boxes...er,
>> Fits.
>>
>
>Did you steal that from Moi??
>My Honder ****?? lol

I don't think so. The first time I used the term I was talking about A
Chevy Chevette, which I dubbed the Chevy ****box. 'Sort of
alliterative...

>
>> That car is well-named, by the way. I think I'd have one if I had one.
>
>DOOD!!!!

>The Honder **** is the DARLING of Consumer Reports!! It is legendarily
>roomy, versatile, reliable.
>You don't get much respect on the road, but at least people aren't laughing
>at me, like at SmartCars.... lol

It may have been the driver. I tried to tighten my seatbelt because I
thought we were going to trip over the front end if he hit the brakes
too hard.

>
>Along those lines, CR PANS the Prius C, hates it!
>YET, it is one of the few cars that gets all three full red dots, ie, the
>best possible consumer feedback (reliability, "satisfaction", cost to own).
>So CR hates the car that consumers apparently love. Go figger, eh?

Consumers tend to love anything for which they have to defend their
decision to purchase. It's a well-known phenomenon in marketing. Some
of the worst junk gets fabulous consumer ratings. Who wants to admit
he made a stupid purchase?

>
>I get the impression that people who thumb their noses at "econoboxes" -- at
>least today's econoboxes -- insist on a recliner in their effing bathrooms,
>replete with a 60" lcd, and vaulted ceilings over the crapper..... Some
>people have to be stylish, even while taking a dump....

I own an econobox, and I love it. But it's still a tin can. Let's be
honest.

>
>The CR Prius ditty reminds me of the converse, PC Mags anti-virus shootout.
>PC Mag LUVED Symantec AntiVirus, yet user feedback, in that same shootout,
>was awful. I called the author of that report to find out whazzup wit dat,
>he basically said PC Mag knows better....
>Hmmm..... can u say "Advertising Revenue", boyzngerlz??? LOL
>I'm amazed they even included that conflicting reader feedback!

Symantec AntiVirus locked up my machine every time I opened it, and it
made my 'puter run like it was on 50 Vac. So I trashed it after frying
the CD in my microwave. Watching the sparks somehow made me feel
better.

And if it had any plant viruses, like tomato mosaic virus or
something, it would keep it from infecting the entire trash dump.

>
>Inyway, you should try a Fit, keeping in mind its hauling capacity. Man,
>you can fill that car up to the BRIM, amazing. It is actually roomier
>inside than my crew cab Frontier!!
>Now, iffin yer goin out on a hot date, well, you'll proly get luckier in an
>Acura or Infinity or Camaro, but iffin yer goin to HD and Shoprite, and want
>Lowest Cost to Own, you need a Fit.

We'll take it out on a track sometime against my 2.3L Focus. I'll give
you a head start. (heh, heh...)

I have gen-you-ine leather seats, I'll have you know. <g>

BTW, did you know that the old introductory single-seat racing class,
Formula Ford, is still called "FF," but the second "F" now stands for
"Fit." They use a Honda Fit engine. The 4-cyl Fords were just getting
too old to keep up.

>
>$350 to produce a complete Civic engine????? Holy ****...... Dats like
>1 Lithium cell!!!!

Amazing, isn't it? I don't know what it is today. That was the end of
my auto-manufacturing reporting days. I'm just starting up again on
that now, so maybe I'll find out.

>And that's exactly the "evolved economical-ness" I was talking about. If
>electrics get a foothold, that same economy, and more, should be achieved,
>and in a much shorter time.
>Depending, of course, on our Conspiratorial Ass****ing..... lol

It's all about batteries.

>
>I agree 100% with your assessment of the Volt. That was, iyr, MOI's
>assessement, even before the whole fracas with the circle-jerking Kidding.
>It is a GREAT concept!
>But over-complexified to the point where..... well, let's put it this way:
>Moi wasn't the one who suspended production, or slashed their prices.....
>The AngstMobile is the practical answer, which is really just a simpler,
>less ambitious Volt!!! Right??

It's certainly less ambitious. If you built some, they'd probably
populate half the trailer parks in America, right under the illegal
power-line drops they run to their trailers. There's a market for you!

>
>And if one produced the AngstMobile strategically, a buyer could
>optional-ize it to give himself a Volt, if dats what he wanted. Incl the
>Convertible, so Kidding could drive around with a perpetual 2.5" chubby....
>"Back-up genset" can come in all varieites, flavors.

It sounds like a Fit with a GMC blower and a purple paint job with
flames.

>
>Oh, yer crack about a tin can with lawnmower engine.....
> That was ELECTRIC lawnmower engine, right?? LOL

Are you going to include a kick starter, or just a piece of rope?

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:21:04 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:34:39 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Ed Huntress" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 21:17:28 -0400, Tom Gardner <Mars@Tacks> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 6/26/2013 7:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>>>> "Jon Elson" > wrote in message
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, I figger, since I drive about 20,000 mi/yr, let's compare the
>>>>>>>>> Fit
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> the Volt in that mile range.
>>>>>>>>> So in the driving I do, I get about 40 mpg on the Fit.... course,
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> free-wheel all over the fukn place, have a helium foot, and shut
>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> engine at the drop of a hat, etc.
>>>>>>>>> And the Volt, at that mileage, will do 45 mpg. And, very
>>>>>>>>> importantly,
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> I do manually the Volt does *automatically*. Long live The Chip,
>>>>>>>>> eh?
>>>>>>>> Well, you can get a Honda Civic Hybrid for a little over $20K, and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> get up to 57 MPG without much work. I do have a light foot. I
>>>>>>>> drove
>>>>>>>> 3 kids plus myself (and the oldest of that crew outweighs me) about
>>>>>>>> 250 miles to a basketball tournament at got 57 MPG on the highway
>>>>>>>> at 59 MPH without air conditioning. It was just at the upper range
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> comfortable temps. This was flat southern Illinois country, the
>>>>>>>> HCH
>>>>>>>> does great on that terrain. I just used the cruise control.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last week I drove 1000 miles on an out of town trip taking about
>>>>>>>> 600
>>>>>>>> Lbs
>>>>>>>> of stuff to a show, hotter than hell both ways, and lots of hills
>>>>>>>> that make it harder to get good mileage. I got about 47 MPG on
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> run, mostly around 68 MPH. AC, hills and speed all conspire to
>>>>>>>> wreck the mileage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can almost buy two of the Civic Hybrids for the price of one
>>>>>>>> Volt, and get good mileage both in town and on long trips.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that case, Kidding would indeed never ever EVER realize an ROI,
>>>>>>> unless it
>>>>>>> was under the 10,000 mi/yr range.
>>>>>>> And then it would be sumpn like 69 years.... lol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 57 mpg is fantastic; 47 is excellent.
>>>>>>> The prius c geekies talk about hitting 68 mpg.
>>>>>>> The VW TDI engine supposedly returns mpg's in the mid-fifties, with
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> light
>>>>>>> foot.
>>>>>>> When sumpn like a prius c pushes 70 mpg, 100 mpge electrics -- with
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> associated prices/visissytudes thereof -- lose quite a bit of their
>>>>>>> dazzle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And not knockin the Volt. The concept is excellent, the engineering
>>>>>>> grand,
>>>>>>> the quality apparently very good.... just, the execution and logic
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> bit off.
>>>>>>> But much too much for Kidding to grok, apparently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm sure he sends checks to the State and Fed for the unpaid road
>>>>>>taxes.
>>>>>> And a check to the EPA for all the coal burned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, what the hell are you talking about? Oh, you don't know?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you drive a Volt 40 miles each way to work, that's about 20,000
>>>>> miles per year. That's at 94 mpg.
>>>>
>>>>Well, I wouldn't bank on charging yer Volt at work....
>>>
>>> Two of my last three healthcare clients have charging stations in the
>>> parking lots. Neither one was in use while I was there <g>, but I
>>> asked and both of them have users.
>>>
>>> I suspect that a lot of them are out behind the buildings with cords
>>> running from the loading docks.
>>>
>>>>AND, it's more like 35 each way....
>>>
>>> Hey, if you'll buy a 57 mpg Civic Hybrid (rated 44/44 for the 2012
>>> model, a big improvement from 2011's 40/43, says Honda), you should
>>> have no trouble with a 40-mile-electric Volt. d8-)
>>>
>>>>So really, practically, most people will be limited to 35 all-electric
>>>>miles per day.
>>>
>>> Most people wouldn't buy one in the first place. But those that do
>>> probably have their strategy mapped out beforehand.
>>>
>>>>Still, I want my Gen2.... lol
>>>
>>> Figure out how you're going to throttle it, now that we know it won't
>>> be charging the batteries but will be directly powering the electric
>>> motor. Industrial motors and genset motors aren't made to produce
>>> torque throughout their range, nor to respond quickly to a throttle.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Oh, another inneresting gas calc.
>>>>Suppose one is choosing between an ICE and a plugin.
>>>>What premium or upfront extra would you be willing to pay? or SHOULD you
>>>>pay?
>>>>For what break-even time?
>>>
>>> It depends entirely on one's driving conditions. As little as I drive,
>>> I would hardly notice the difference in fuel costs if I had a 427
>>> side-oiler in my Focus. 'Sure would be fun for a while, though...
>>>
>>> But if cost was everything, we'd all be driving Honda ****boxes...er,
>>> Fits.
>>>
>>
>>Did you steal that from Moi??
>>My Honder ****?? lol
>
> I don't think so. The first time I used the term I was talking about A
> Chevy Chevette, which I dubbed the Chevy ****box. 'Sort of
> alliterative...
>
>>
>>> That car is well-named, by the way. I think I'd have one if I had one.
>>
>>DOOD!!!!
>
>>The Honder **** is the DARLING of Consumer Reports!! It is legendarily
>>roomy, versatile, reliable.
>>You don't get much respect on the road, but at least people aren't
>>laughing
>>at me, like at SmartCars.... lol
>
> It may have been the driver. I tried to tighten my seatbelt because I
> thought we were going to trip over the front end if he hit the brakes
> too hard.

Good brakes?? LOL

>
>>
>>Along those lines, CR PANS the Prius C, hates it!
>>YET, it is one of the few cars that gets all three full red dots, ie, the
>>best possible consumer feedback (reliability, "satisfaction", cost to
>>own).
>>So CR hates the car that consumers apparently love. Go figger, eh?
>
> Consumers tend to love anything for which they have to defend their
> decision to purchase. It's a well-known phenomenon in marketing. Some
> of the worst junk gets fabulous consumer ratings. Who wants to admit
> he made a stupid purchase?

Apparently Symantec users are willing to admit it.... LOL!!!
I had to remove it from the Wife's pyooter, Dell bundled it in.
**** Dell.

>
>>
>>I get the impression that people who thumb their noses at "econoboxes" --
>>at
>>least today's econoboxes -- insist on a recliner in their effing
>>bathrooms,
>>replete with a 60" lcd, and vaulted ceilings over the crapper..... Some
>>people have to be stylish, even while taking a dump....
>
> I own an econobox, and I love it. But it's still a tin can. Let's be
> honest.

Here's the Q:
Should cars be anything BUT an econobox??
Well, for asshole's like Kidding, and wannabee pimps in dey Escalades, the
answer is yes, they need Rolling LivingRooms..
Me, I chill in my living room, and drive my car from point A to point B.
A/C and heat is really all that counts.
If I had bevies of yuppie girlfriends, then I'd need an Audi or BMW.

But for the bulk of rational non-dysfunctional people (all 100 in Merka??
lol), an econobox is MORE than adequate.
And frankly, I get nervous in someone else's upscale car.... what if I
forgot to take that screwdriver out of my pocket?? LOL

>
>>
>>The CR Prius ditty reminds me of the converse, PC Mags anti-virus
>>shootout.
>>PC Mag LUVED Symantec AntiVirus, yet user feedback, in that same shootout,
>>was awful. I called the author of that report to find out whazzup wit
>>dat,
>>he basically said PC Mag knows better....
>>Hmmm..... can u say "Advertising Revenue", boyzngerlz??? LOL
>>I'm amazed they even included that conflicting reader feedback!
>
> Symantec AntiVirus locked up my machine every time I opened it, and it
> made my 'puter run like it was on 50 Vac. So I trashed it after frying
> the CD in my microwave. Watching the sparks somehow made me feel
> better.
>
> And if it had any plant viruses, like tomato mosaic virus or
> something, it would keep it from infecting the entire trash dump.
>
>>
>>Inyway, you should try a Fit, keeping in mind its hauling capacity. Man,
>>you can fill that car up to the BRIM, amazing. It is actually roomier
>>inside than my crew cab Frontier!!
>>Now, iffin yer goin out on a hot date, well, you'll proly get luckier in
>>an
>>Acura or Infinity or Camaro, but iffin yer goin to HD and Shoprite, and
>>want
>>Lowest Cost to Own, you need a Fit.
>
> We'll take it out on a track sometime against my 2.3L Focus. I'll give
> you a head start. (heh, heh...)
>
> I have gen-you-ine leather seats, I'll have you know. <g>
>
> BTW, did you know that the old introductory single-seat racing class,
> Formula Ford, is still called "FF," but the second "F" now stands for
> "Fit." They use a Honda Fit engine. The 4-cyl Fords were just getting
> too old to keep up.

That's amazing.
The Fit engine is really smooth.

>
>>
>>$350 to produce a complete Civic engine????? Holy ****...... Dats
>>like
>>1 Lithium cell!!!!
>
> Amazing, isn't it? I don't know what it is today. That was the end of
> my auto-manufacturing reporting days. I'm just starting up again on
> that now, so maybe I'll find out.
>
>>And that's exactly the "evolved economical-ness" I was talking about. If
>>electrics get a foothold, that same economy, and more, should be achieved,
>>and in a much shorter time.
>>Depending, of course, on our Conspiratorial Ass****ing..... lol
>
> It's all about batteries.
>
>>
>>I agree 100% with your assessment of the Volt. That was, iyr, MOI's
>>assessement, even before the whole fracas with the circle-jerking Kidding.
>>It is a GREAT concept!
>>But over-complexified to the point where..... well, let's put it this
>>way:
>>Moi wasn't the one who suspended production, or slashed their prices.....
>>The AngstMobile is the practical answer, which is really just a simpler,
>>less ambitious Volt!!! Right??
>
> It's certainly less ambitious. If you built some, they'd probably
> populate half the trailer parks in America, right under the illegal
> power-line drops they run to their trailers. There's a market for you!

Dood, you keep dissing the AngstMobile.
Forgetting about the toggle switches, if a Volt were built AngstMobile
style, you proly wouldn't even notice it, except on hills.
I think you were grousing that pure-genset-powered motors are not as
throttle-responsive or sumpn?? BFD!!!

From a 1st order approximation, there wouldn't much operational diff....
except mebbe $20K price. No $2 Billion R&D, donchaknow...

>
>>
>>And if one produced the AngstMobile strategically, a buyer could
>>optional-ize it to give himself a Volt, if dats what he wanted. Incl the
>>Convertible, so Kidding could drive around with a perpetual 2.5"
>>chubby....
>>"Back-up genset" can come in all varieites, flavors.
>
> It sounds like a Fit with a GMC blower and a purple paint job with
> flames.
>
>>
>>Oh, yer crack about a tin can with lawnmower engine.....
>> That was ELECTRIC lawnmower engine, right?? LOL
>
> Are you going to include a kick starter, or just a piece of rope?

What real men use: Ford handcranks....
--
EA


>
> --
> Ed Huntress