spoked wheels obsoletion

On May 24, 6:31*am, jim beam > wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 08:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 05/23/2013 09:30 AM, gpsman wrote:
> >> On May 23, 10:36 am, jim beam > wrote:
>
> >>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
> >>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
> >>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
> >>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>
> >> Those figures are in reality exactly 0%.
> >> * -----
>
> >> - gpsman
>
> > lol! *yeah, it's pretty hard. *i ended up learning how to build my own
> > because i got sick of paying people who purported to be experts, but
> > weren't.
>
> but even learning was far from a clear path. *there are several books on
> the subject. *some focus on an artisinal approach. *but one purports to
> have an engineering approach - and contains some jaw-dropping technical
> errors.
>
> imo, the easiest method introduction is this:
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html>
>
> but don't use his "stress relief" method - use the one recommended by
> the wheel manufacturing industry's leader, mavic, i.e. pressing the hub
> against a block of wood and leaning on opposite edges of the rim. *it
> raises spoke tension geometrically as per natural usage, and it doesn't
> introduce nics or fatigue initiators into the spokes.
>
never had a problem with my rims built by colorado cyclist (started by
machine
finished manually I presume) and a local shop (manual build) while I
was in the states,

but local wheelbuilder here indeed screwed up, got a figure 8,
another guy fixed
it and it stayed fixed. for now. haven't ridden much since then
though

On 05/24/2013 05:54 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 05/24/2013 12:57 AM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 05/23/2013 09:30 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> Aluminum wheels in modern alloys are just clearly superior
>>>> in almost every case[1] but the principle was established
>>>> well in steel many years ago.
>>>
>>> Cops seem to prefer stamped steel wheels to alloy. Their failure mode
>>> is to
>>> bend rather than crack. This allows continued (albeit somewhen wobbly)
>>> operation in a pursuit, for example.
>>>
>>
>> indeed.
>>
>> dished steel wheels are also slightly more springy than the typical cast
>> aluminum wheel - can provide a slightly softer ride.
>>
>>
>
> I dunno about the late model Impalas and Vickys, but the steel wheels
> used on the old MoPar cop cars are a lot thicker gauge metal than other
> steel wheels I've seen.

<snip irrelevance>
> they
> are astonishingly heavy. So I'm not sure how "springy" they are.

did you gauge their deflection with a 3000lb load? i thought not.


>
> I bet they have to be trued a lot less often than the 24's that I saw on
> a Dodge Magnum yesterday...
>
> nate
>


--
fact check required

On 05/24/2013 06:44 AM, AD wrote:
> On May 24, 6:31�am, jim beam > wrote:
>> On 05/23/2013 08:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 05/23/2013 09:30 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>>> On May 23, 10:36 am, jim beam > wrote:
>>
>>>>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
>>>>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
>>>>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>>>>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>>
>>>> Those figures are in reality exactly 0%.
>>>> � -----
>>
>>>> - gpsman
>>
>>> lol! �yeah, it's pretty hard. �i ended up learning how to build my own
>>> because i got sick of paying people who purported to be experts, but
>>> weren't.
>>
>> but even learning was far from a clear path. �there are several books on
>> the subject. �some focus on an artisinal approach. �but one purports to
>> have an engineering approach - and contains some jaw-dropping technical
>> errors.
>>
>> imo, the easiest method introduction is this:
>> <http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html>
>>
>> but don't use his "stress relief" method - use the one recommended by
>> the wheel manufacturing industry's leader, mavic, i.e. pressing the hub
>> against a block of wood and leaning on opposite edges of the rim. �it
>> raises spoke tension geometrically as per natural usage, and it doesn't
>> introduce nics or fatigue initiators into the spokes.
>>
> never had a problem with my rims built by colorado cyclist (started by
> machine
> finished manually I presume) and a local shop (manual build) while I
> was in the states,

as with many things, a lot of this is relative. colorado and some
others build a decent wheel, and a great wheel compared with the vast
majority. but 20k miles down the road, does it have a waver in it? my
experience says "yes".

most of the time, +/-1mm at that mileage would be considered pretty good
and very much acceptable [i.e. it won't rub the brakes]. but when i
want a wheel to stay true, i mean within 0.1mm. that is possible, but
very very rare.


>
> but local wheelbuilder here indeed screwed up, got a figure 8,
> another guy fixed
> it and it stayed fixed. for now. haven't ridden much since then
> though
>


--
fact check required

On 05/24/2013 05:48 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 11:40 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 05/23/2013 08:19 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> On 05/23/2013 11:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 05/23/2013 02:03 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of
>>>>>> wheel
>>>>>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from
>>>>>> new,
>>>>>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>>>>>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Knowing that it's nearly impossible was just the motivation I
>>>>> needed to
>>>>> get to work on that old bicycle in the garage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks JB!
>>>>>
>>>>> GW
>>>>
>>>> it's not impossible at all, but it's something you need to do carefully
>>>> and in the right way. like playing a guitar, anybody can thump out the
>>>> notes in roughly the right order, but to make it sound good is a whole
>>>> different story.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, listening to the pitch of a plucked spoke is a useful activity
>>> when working on a bicycle wheel. ASSuming that you're working on a
>>> wheel where all the spokes are the same length (not always a good
>>> assumption, but in a standard cross-3 front wheel they are; on a
>>> standard cross-3 rear wheel that has a dish to it one side will be
>>> shorter than the other but all the spokes on a given side of the hub
>>> should be the same length) if they are the same pitch then they are at
>>> the same tension. You don't necessarily know what it *is,* but you know
>>> it's even.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>
>> wire pitch is not just length, it's also tension and mass.
>
> True, but I was assuming same gauge spokes as well. (I'm certain there
> has to be an oddball wheel that uses spokes that are the same length but
> different gauges,

gauge is mass.


> but I can't think of why that would be a good idea.)
>
>> yes, the
>> spokes of each side should be even in the first analysis, but when
>> closing in on a final tension/true, since no rim is perfectly round,
>> there has to be slight variances in pitch to make it so. the art is to
>> make those variances in tune so that no spoke has a tension above one
>> level and none have it below the rim manufacturer's recommended minimum.
>>
>> average wheel tension should be set with a tensiometer. they're cheap
>> and easy to get, and they allow you to build long-term reliable wheels
>> without rim buckling, rim cracking or spoke fatigue - the three common
>> results of mistakes commonly made.
>>
>
> Agreed and agreed... just found it odd that you used the guitar analogy
> and that when I've had to true a wheel I find myself plucking a lot.
>
> I would say that the more even you can get the tension in the final
> wheel - and I know it's not going to be perfectly even unless you
> started with an exceptionally perfect rim - the longer it'll stay true.
> Or in other words, if you have two wheels that are both reasonably
> true but one has far more variation in tension between the spokes, I
> would bet on that wheel going out of true far sooner than the one with
> relatively even tension.

like i said, first cut is even tension. but then it changes. if you
want the rim join to be round for example, you need higher tension on
the two spokes either side. then the next 2-4 spokes from that need to
be slightly slacker to compensate for true. etc. etc. it's complex
iterative process with each spoke's tension related to it's opposite
pair, and the next 2-4 spokes beyond them.


--
fact check required

On May 24, 3:54*pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
> On 05/24/2013 12:57 AM, jim beam wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 05/23/2013 09:30 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
> >> AMuzi wrote:
>
> >> [snip]
>
> >>> Aluminum wheels in modern alloys are just clearly superior
> >>> in almost every case[1] but the principle was established
> >>> well in steel many years ago.
>
> >> Cops seem to prefer stamped steel wheels to alloy. Their failure mode
> >> is to
> >> bend rather than crack. This allows continued (albeit somewhen wobbly)
> >> operation in a pursuit, for example.
>
> > indeed.
>
> > dished steel wheels are also slightly more springy than the typical cast
> > aluminum wheel - can provide a slightly softer ride.
>
> I dunno about the late model Impalas and Vickys, but the steel wheels
> used on the old MoPar cop cars are a lot thicker gauge metal than other
> steel wheels I've seen. *I got a set for my '55 Studebaker because
> they're the perfect width and offset for using wide modern tires on said
> car without rubbing and they look cool too (and I had thoughts about
> adapting '55 dog dishes to the MoPar wheels, but never bothered to spend
> the time with a die grinder to make the slots for the clips) and they
> are astonishingly heavy. *So I'm not sure how "springy" they are.
>
so you got heavy disks but not the beefed up suspension that likely
goes with it.
I wonder how that would affect the life of your shocks (and springs)

On 05/30/2013 10:05 AM, AD wrote:
> On May 24, 3:54 pm, Nate Nagel > wrote:
>> On 05/24/2013 12:57 AM, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 05/23/2013 09:30 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>>> [snip]
>>
>>>>> Aluminum wheels in modern alloys are just clearly superior
>>>>> in almost every case[1] but the principle was established
>>>>> well in steel many years ago.
>>
>>>> Cops seem to prefer stamped steel wheels to alloy. Their failure mode
>>>> is to
>>>> bend rather than crack. This allows continued (albeit somewhen wobbly)
>>>> operation in a pursuit, for example.
>>
>>> indeed.
>>
>>> dished steel wheels are also slightly more springy than the typical cast
>>> aluminum wheel - can provide a slightly softer ride.
>>
>> I dunno about the late model Impalas and Vickys, but the steel wheels
>> used on the old MoPar cop cars are a lot thicker gauge metal than other
>> steel wheels I've seen. I got a set for my '55 Studebaker because
>> they're the perfect width and offset for using wide modern tires on said
>> car without rubbing and they look cool too (and I had thoughts about
>> adapting '55 dog dishes to the MoPar wheels, but never bothered to spend
>> the time with a die grinder to make the slots for the clips) and they
>> are astonishingly heavy. So I'm not sure how "springy" they are.
>>
> so you got heavy disks but not the beefed up suspension that likely
> goes with it.
> I wonder how that would affect the life of your shocks (and springs)
>

Actually the car had the HD suspension option from the factory... the
original shocks are long gone but it still has the HD springs. Current
shocks are cheap Gabriels but I did do my research and find Bilstein
part numbers that will work.

but all things considered, if I had the money, the car would probably be
better off overall with a nice set of 15" or 16" alloys to reduce
unsprung weight, as it's bad for so many different reasons. There's
other things I could do as well such as dropping the lower control arm
pivots, dialing in more caster, etc...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Wire wheels are heavy and not very strong. Well, I suppose the rim is thick and heavy to make up for the spokes.

The first replacement (in motorsports) of wire wheels were three-piece wheels with a bolt-in machined center. Take a look at the BBS RS-GT, that's a bolt-in forged center to a one-piece forged rim. Then look at the BBS RGR and that's a one-piece forged wheel and nothing bolts in. Most current three-piece wheels have the two rim pieces welded and don't require sealing. Take a look at SSR 3-piece wheels. Take a look at OZ wheels for the Corvette at TR.

Now spun rims are rims machined from barrel stock and in two pieces. Then the center piece bolts everything together but requires sealing. That's the classic three-piece wheel.

Forged wheels are denser than cast wheels but has less impurities. So forged wheels are magically both stonger and lighter than cast wheels. Take a look at the Volk CE28N and the Volk TE37.

But cast wheels, forged wheels, and spun wheels can all be alloy wheels and that means aluminum when the subject is wheels.

Light weight of wheels is important because a lighter wheel is less force coming off the road over a bump. Less unsprung weight produces both a better ride and increased traction
..

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:12:15 PM UTC-5, KBH wrote:
> Wire wheels are heavy and not very strong. Well, I suppose the rim is thick and heavy to make up for the spokes.
>
>
>
> The first replacement (in motorsports) of wire wheels were three-piece wheels with a bolt-in machined center. Take a look at the BBS RS-GT, that's a bolt-in forged center to a one-piece forged rim. Then look at the BBS RGR and that's a one-piece forged wheel and nothing bolts in. Most current three-piece wheels have the two rim pieces welded and don't require sealing. Take a look at SSR 3-piece wheels. Take a look at OZ wheels for the Corvette at TR.
>
>
>
> Now spun rims are rims machined from barrel stock and in two pieces. Then the center piece bolts everything together but requires sealing. That's the classic three-piece wheel.
>
>
>
> Forged wheels are denser than cast wheels but has less impurities. So forged wheels are magically both stonger and lighter than cast wheels. Take a look at the Volk CE28N and the Volk TE37.
>
>
>
> But cast wheels, forged wheels, and spun wheels can all be alloy wheels and that means aluminum when the subject is wheels.
>
>
>
> Light weight of wheels is important because a lighter wheel is less force coming off the road over a bump. Less unsprung weight produces both a better ride and increased traction
>
> .

I don't think any wheels look better than wire spoke wheels. Interestlingly, vehicles with wire spoke wheels are hanging from only a few wire spokes per wheel at a time.

Take a look at the BBS RS-GT.

Designs like that happened in the early 1960's and were a machine shop attempt to resemble a wire wheel.

I don't actually know what to call that type of design but it went on to become a classic design itself.

>
> as with many things, a lot of this is relative. colorado and some
> others build a decent wheel, and a great wheel compared with the vast
> majority. but 20k miles down the road, does it have a waver in it? my
> experience says "yes".
>
Unfortunately the bike that had them got stolen from my garage (I did
have one)
and I did not put nearly enough miles miles to find out.

> most of the time, +/-1mm at that mileage would be considered pretty good
> and very much acceptable [i.e. it won't rub the brakes]. but when i
> want a wheel to stay true, i mean within 0.1mm. that is possible, but
> very very rare.
>
I don't have a rough downhill like old page mill to stress test
the newly built wheels and with local anti bike laws
I hardly do any riding lately