spoked wheels obsoletion

jim beam wrote:
>
> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.

Knowing that it's nearly impossible was just the motivation I needed to
get to work on that old bicycle in the garage.

Thanks JB!

GW

On 05/23/2013 02:03 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>>
>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>
> Knowing that it's nearly impossible was just the motivation I needed to
> get to work on that old bicycle in the garage.
>
> Thanks JB!
>
> GW

it's not impossible at all, but it's something you need to do carefully
and in the right way. like playing a guitar, anybody can thump out the
notes in roughly the right order, but to make it sound good is a whole
different story.


--
fact check required

On 05/23/2013 09:30 AM, gpsman wrote:
> On May 23, 10:36�am, jim beam > wrote:
>>
>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>
> Those figures are in reality exactly 0%.
> -----
>
> - gpsman
>

lol! yeah, it's pretty hard. i ended up learning how to build my own
because i got sick of paying people who purported to be experts, but
weren't.


--
fact check required

On 05/23/2013 11:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 02:03 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
>>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
>>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>>
>> Knowing that it's nearly impossible was just the motivation I needed to
>> get to work on that old bicycle in the garage.
>>
>> Thanks JB!
>>
>> GW
>
> it's not impossible at all, but it's something you need to do carefully
> and in the right way. like playing a guitar, anybody can thump out the
> notes in roughly the right order, but to make it sound good is a whole
> different story.
>
>

Actually, listening to the pitch of a plucked spoke is a useful activity
when working on a bicycle wheel. ASSuming that you're working on a
wheel where all the spokes are the same length (not always a good
assumption, but in a standard cross-3 front wheel they are; on a
standard cross-3 rear wheel that has a dish to it one side will be
shorter than the other but all the spokes on a given side of the hub
should be the same length) if they are the same pitch then they are at
the same tension. You don't necessarily know what it *is,* but you know
it's even.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/23/2013 08:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 09:30 AM, gpsman wrote:
>> On May 23, 10:36�am, jim beam > wrote:
>>>
>>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of wheel
>>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
>>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>>
>> Those figures are in reality exactly 0%.
>> -----
>>
>> - gpsman
>>
>
> lol! yeah, it's pretty hard. i ended up learning how to build my own
> because i got sick of paying people who purported to be experts, but
> weren't.
>
>

but even learning was far from a clear path. there are several books on
the subject. some focus on an artisinal approach. but one purports to
have an engineering approach - and contains some jaw-dropping technical
errors.

imo, the easiest method introduction is this:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html>

but don't use his "stress relief" method - use the one recommended by
the wheel manufacturing industry's leader, mavic, i.e. pressing the hub
against a block of wood and leaning on opposite edges of the rim. it
raises spoke tension geometrically as per natural usage, and it doesn't
introduce nics or fatigue initiators into the spokes.


--
fact check required

On 05/23/2013 08:19 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 11:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 05/23/2013 02:03 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of
>>>> wheel
>>>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from new,
>>>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>>>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>>>
>>> Knowing that it's nearly impossible was just the motivation I needed to
>>> get to work on that old bicycle in the garage.
>>>
>>> Thanks JB!
>>>
>>> GW
>>
>> it's not impossible at all, but it's something you need to do carefully
>> and in the right way. like playing a guitar, anybody can thump out the
>> notes in roughly the right order, but to make it sound good is a whole
>> different story.
>>
>>
>
> Actually, listening to the pitch of a plucked spoke is a useful activity
> when working on a bicycle wheel. ASSuming that you're working on a
> wheel where all the spokes are the same length (not always a good
> assumption, but in a standard cross-3 front wheel they are; on a
> standard cross-3 rear wheel that has a dish to it one side will be
> shorter than the other but all the spokes on a given side of the hub
> should be the same length) if they are the same pitch then they are at
> the same tension. You don't necessarily know what it *is,* but you know
> it's even.
>
> nate
>

wire pitch is not just length, it's also tension and mass. yes, the
spokes of each side should be even in the first analysis, but when
closing in on a final tension/true, since no rim is perfectly round,
there has to be slight variances in pitch to make it so. the art is to
make those variances in tune so that no spoke has a tension above one
level and none have it below the rim manufacturer's recommended minimum.

average wheel tension should be set with a tensiometer. they're cheap
and easy to get, and they allow you to build long-term reliable wheels
without rim buckling, rim cracking or spoke fatigue - the three common
results of mistakes commonly made.


--
fact check required

AMuzi wrote:

[snip]
>
> Aluminum wheels in modern alloys are just clearly superior
> in almost every case[1] but the principle was established
> well in steel many years ago.

Cops seem to prefer stamped steel wheels to alloy. Their failure mode is to
bend rather than crack. This allows continued (albeit somewhen wobbly)
operation in a pursuit, for example.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Klein bottle for rent -- inquire within

On 05/23/2013 09:30 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
> [snip]
>>
>> Aluminum wheels in modern alloys are just clearly superior
>> in almost every case[1] but the principle was established
>> well in steel many years ago.
>
> Cops seem to prefer stamped steel wheels to alloy. Their failure mode is to
> bend rather than crack. This allows continued (albeit somewhen wobbly)
> operation in a pursuit, for example.
>

indeed.

dished steel wheels are also slightly more springy than the typical cast
aluminum wheel - can provide a slightly softer ride.


--
fact check required

On 05/23/2013 11:40 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 08:19 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 05/23/2013 11:06 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 05/23/2013 02:03 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> based on my experience of bicycle wheels, i'd say fewer than 1% of
>>>>> wheel
>>>>> builders have the skill to true a wheel so that it stays true from
>>>>> new,
>>>>> and maybe 10% of that 1% know how to correct a wheel that has become
>>>>> untrue so that it doesn't happen again.
>>>>
>>>> Knowing that it's nearly impossible was just the motivation I needed to
>>>> get to work on that old bicycle in the garage.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks JB!
>>>>
>>>> GW
>>>
>>> it's not impossible at all, but it's something you need to do carefully
>>> and in the right way. like playing a guitar, anybody can thump out the
>>> notes in roughly the right order, but to make it sound good is a whole
>>> different story.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Actually, listening to the pitch of a plucked spoke is a useful activity
>> when working on a bicycle wheel. ASSuming that you're working on a
>> wheel where all the spokes are the same length (not always a good
>> assumption, but in a standard cross-3 front wheel they are; on a
>> standard cross-3 rear wheel that has a dish to it one side will be
>> shorter than the other but all the spokes on a given side of the hub
>> should be the same length) if they are the same pitch then they are at
>> the same tension. You don't necessarily know what it *is,* but you know
>> it's even.
>>
>> nate
>>
>
> wire pitch is not just length, it's also tension and mass.

True, but I was assuming same gauge spokes as well. (I'm certain there
has to be an oddball wheel that uses spokes that are the same length but
different gauges, but I can't think of why that would be a good idea.)

> yes, the
> spokes of each side should be even in the first analysis, but when
> closing in on a final tension/true, since no rim is perfectly round,
> there has to be slight variances in pitch to make it so. the art is to
> make those variances in tune so that no spoke has a tension above one
> level and none have it below the rim manufacturer's recommended minimum.
>
> average wheel tension should be set with a tensiometer. they're cheap
> and easy to get, and they allow you to build long-term reliable wheels
> without rim buckling, rim cracking or spoke fatigue - the three common
> results of mistakes commonly made.
>

Agreed and agreed... just found it odd that you used the guitar analogy
and that when I've had to true a wheel I find myself plucking a lot.

I would say that the more even you can get the tension in the final
wheel - and I know it's not going to be perfectly even unless you
started with an exceptionally perfect rim - the longer it'll stay true.
Or in other words, if you have two wheels that are both reasonably
true but one has far more variation in tension between the spokes, I
would bet on that wheel going out of true far sooner than the one with
relatively even tension.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/24/2013 12:57 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/23/2013 09:30 PM, Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>> AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Aluminum wheels in modern alloys are just clearly superior
>>> in almost every case[1] but the principle was established
>>> well in steel many years ago.
>>
>> Cops seem to prefer stamped steel wheels to alloy. Their failure mode
>> is to
>> bend rather than crack. This allows continued (albeit somewhen wobbly)
>> operation in a pursuit, for example.
>>
>
> indeed.
>
> dished steel wheels are also slightly more springy than the typical cast
> aluminum wheel - can provide a slightly softer ride.
>
>

I dunno about the late model Impalas and Vickys, but the steel wheels
used on the old MoPar cop cars are a lot thicker gauge metal than other
steel wheels I've seen. I got a set for my '55 Studebaker because
they're the perfect width and offset for using wide modern tires on said
car without rubbing and they look cool too (and I had thoughts about
adapting '55 dog dishes to the MoPar wheels, but never bothered to spend
the time with a die grinder to make the slots for the clips) and they
are astonishingly heavy. So I'm not sure how "springy" they are.

I bet they have to be trued a lot less often than the 24's that I saw on
a Dodge Magnum yesterday...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel