ceramic pistons - discuss

<http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>

Gut reaction "Dodgy"

"Bret" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>
> Gut reaction "Dodgy"

I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
things.

I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
completely before coming up to full operation.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:39:26 -0600, hls wrote:

> "Bret" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>
>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>
> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
> things.
>
> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
> completely before coming up to full operation.

There are some sound principles involved, but the application of these
principles has prove difficult.
One reference to naked aluminium bores running with no rings, I have to
wonder about expansion coefficents

"Bret" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:39:26 -0600, hls wrote:
>
>> "Bret" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>>
>>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>>
>> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
>> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
>> things.
>>
>> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
>> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
>> completely before coming up to full operation.
>
> There are some sound principles involved, but the application of these
> principles has prove difficult.
> One reference to naked aluminium bores running with no rings, I have to
> wonder about expansion coefficents

Of course, expansion coefficients are an issue. "Naked aluminum bores"
may not be totally naked. There is a world of technology out there to
make things that are beyond the present horizon.

I have always been interested in "metallizing". This technology is somewhat
like electroplating, but the electrolyte bath is usually a fluoride flux.
The base
metal can be infused with metallic ions via this bath. The new metal
actually
penetrates and forms a surface alloy with the base metal. The possibilities
are infinite.

On 11/19/2010 02:39 PM, hls wrote:
>
> "Bret" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>>
>>
>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>
> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
> things.

the easiest identified barriers are cost and [lack of] willingness of
manufacturers to use components that essentially don't wear out.

i'd also be interested to see how ringless designs compare to
conventional. but that's essentially nothing to do with the material.


>
> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
> completely before coming up to full operation.
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 11/19/2010 02:39 PM, hls wrote:
>
> "Bret" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>>
>>
>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>
> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
> things.
>
> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
> completely before coming up to full operation.
>

forgot:

it's impossible to warm an engine "completely" before coming to full
operation - think about it.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 11/19/2010 03:40 PM, hls wrote:
>
> "Bret" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:39:26 -0600, hls wrote:
>>
>>> "Bret" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>>>
>>> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
>>> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
>>> things.
>>>
>>> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
>>> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
>>> completely before coming up to full operation.
>>
>> There are some sound principles involved, but the application of these
>> principles has prove difficult.
>> One reference to naked aluminium bores running with no rings, I have to
>> wonder about expansion coefficents
>
> Of course, expansion coefficients are an issue. "Naked aluminum bores"
> may not be totally naked. There is a world of technology out there to
> make things that are beyond the present horizon.
>
> I have always been interested in "metallizing". This technology is somewhat
> like electroplating, but the electrolyte bath is usually a fluoride
> flux. The base
> metal can be infused with metallic ions via this bath. The new metal
> actually
> penetrates and forms a surface alloy with the base metal. The possibilities
> are infinite.

if it's fluoride, it's much more likely to be an etch rather than
"infusion". unplated aluminum bores [example, porsche 928] use a
high-silicon aluminum casting, then etch the aluminum from the honed
bore surface leaving only silicon crystals in relief [hydrofluoric acid
is a common aluminum etchant]. silicon is highly wear resistant and
thus provides the working surface.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 11/19/2010 03:27 PM, Bret wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:39:26 -0600, hls wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>>
>>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>>
>> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
>> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
>> things.
>>
>> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
>> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
>> completely before coming up to full operation.
>
> There are some sound principles involved, but the application of these
> principles has prove difficult.
> One reference to naked aluminium bores running with no rings, I have to
> wonder about expansion coefficents

you probably have more of an issue on expansion ratios between a steel
bore and an aluminum piston. on a direct comparison, silicon carbide is
an order of magnitude less expansive than aluminum.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:16:48 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> On 11/19/2010 03:27 PM, Bret wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:39:26 -0600, hls wrote:
>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:07:44 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6678899/diesel-engines/nr-ceramic-pistons/index.html>
>>>>
>>>> Gut reaction "Dodgy"
>>>
>>> I remember people like Smoky Yunick working on these long long ago.
>>> Technology has improved, but there are still some quirks about these
>>> things.
>>>
>>> I heard it said that ceramics are best used on engines that are used for
>>> long times at a set power level, and that the engine needs to be warmed
>>> completely before coming up to full operation.
>>
>> There are some sound principles involved, but the application of these
>> principles has prove difficult.
>> One reference to naked aluminium bores running with no rings, I have to
>> wonder about expansion coefficents
>
> you probably have more of an issue on expansion ratios between a steel
> bore and an aluminum piston. on a direct comparison, silicon carbide is
> an order of magnitude less expansive than aluminum.

Hence the rings. I beleive the ceramic won't expand much under heating but
the bore will.It seems to be a fine line they will be working to.