Rotary Engines *VS* Turbines

Dental (Dentist) drills are high speed turbines.
cuhulin

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
> wrote:

>On Nov 15, 10:13*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> In article >,
>>
>> 2.7182818284590... > wrote:
>> >Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>> >occures. *Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>
>> >However both of these engines are quite different. *What explains the
>> >differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>
>> Is this a homework question?
>>
>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about where heat is
>> going.
>>
>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
>Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors prove
>that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed with
>wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert

Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer moment
arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines with
large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota. Most
engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before TDC. Honda
and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore diameter.

But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much higher
thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!

On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
> > wrote:
>
>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>> In >,
>>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>
>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What explains the
>>>> differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>
>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>
>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about where heat is
>>> going.
>>>
>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>> --scott
>>> --
>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>
>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors prove
>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed with
>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>
> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer moment
> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines with
> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota. Most
> engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before TDC. Honda
> and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore diameter.
>
> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much higher
> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/

1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications], not
friction.

2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

> wrote in message
...
> Dental (Dentist) drills are high speed turbines.
> cuhulin

Some are, some arent. There are still some of
those old belt powered jobs around.

Dentists may say that the the old ones are more
precise for delicate work, the turbine drills move
a lot of tooth very quickly.

jim beam > wrote in
:

> On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>> In
>>>>
>>>> .com>,
>>>>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>>
>>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What
>>>>> explains the differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>>
>>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>>
>>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about where
>>>> heat is going.
>>>>
>>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>>> --scott
>>>> --
>>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>>
>>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors prove
>>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed with
>>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>>
>> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer moment
>> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines with
>> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota.
>> Most engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before TDC.
>> Honda and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore diameter.
>>
>> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much higher
>> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
>> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
>
> 1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications], not
> friction.

while that cite didn`t center on the ofset work being done now there
are several manufactures expermenting with that very idea. (which is a
much larger ofset than being used for noise and thrust face loadiing
being used now.)


>
> 2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.

It most certainly did. can you not read???? KB


>
>

On 11/18/2010 06:57 AM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> jim > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>>> In
>>>>>
>>>>> .com>,
>>>>>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What
>>>>>> explains the differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>>>
>>>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about where
>>>>> heat is going.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>>>> --scott
>>>>> --
>>>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>>>
>>>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors prove
>>>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>>>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed with
>>>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>>>
>>> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer moment
>>> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines with
>>> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota.
>>> Most engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before TDC.
>>> Honda and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore diameter.
>>>
>>> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much higher
>>> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
>>> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
>>
>> 1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications], not
>> friction.
>
> while that cite didn`t center on the ofset work being done now there
> are several manufactures expermenting with that very idea.

it's an old idea and has been used for many decades.


> (which is a
> much larger ofset than being used for noise and thrust face loadiing
> being used now.)
>
>
>>
>> 2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.
>
> It most certainly did. can you not read???? KB

ok, i re-read - it does. but i was lost again when he said "It makes
use of crank offset to create the required piston motion aimed at engine
efficiency improvements through thermodynamic performance gains." since
there is no relationship that correlates thermodynamic efficiency with
physical configuration.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

jim beam > wrote in news:ss-
:

> On 11/18/2010 06:57 AM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>> jim > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> article<a9f28533-5367-4da2-9afe-f1893e6ca...
@i4g2000pro.googlegroups
>>>>>> .com>,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What
>>>>>>> explains the differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about where
>>>>>> heat is going.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>>>>
>>>>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors
prove
>>>>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>>>>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed with
>>>>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>>>>
>>>> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer moment
>>>> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines with
>>>> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota.
>>>> Most engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before
TDC.
>>>> Honda and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore diameter.
>>>>
>>>> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much higher
>>>> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
>>>> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
>>>
>>> 1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications], not
>>> friction.
>>
>> while that cite didn`t center on the ofset work being done now
there
>> are several manufactures expermenting with that very idea.
>
> it's an old idea and has been used for many decades.

only as a noise and thrust face friction reducer, not as is now being
expermented with as a power and efficiency enhancer.


>
>
>> (which is a
>> much larger ofset than being used for noise and thrust face loadiing
>> being used now.)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.
>>
>> It most certainly did. can you not read???? KB
>
> ok, i re-read - it does. but i was lost again when he said "It makes
> use of crank offset to create the required piston motion aimed at
engine
> efficiency improvements through thermodynamic performance gains." since
> there is no relationship that correlates thermodynamic efficiency with
> physical configuration.

Ok if you ofset the crank and thus the piston also then at TDC the dwell
time is increased (which gives more burn time at TDC and when the piston
does start the downward motion the rod arm angle is a more direct push
down creating greater torque and possible improved burn time before the
exaust valve opens which can increase efficiency. Newer type concept for
offset if they can keep the thrust face friction problems at bay.
the old offset just offset the piston pin for cold start noise, ect.
KB


>
>

On 11/18/2010 12:25 PM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> jim > wrote in news:ss-
> :
>
>> On 11/18/2010 06:57 AM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>> jim > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> article<a9f28533-5367-4da2-9afe-f1893e6ca...
> @i4g2000pro.googlegroups
>>>>>>> .com>,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>>>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What
>>>>>>>> explains the differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about where
>>>>>>> heat is going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors
> prove
>>>>>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>>>>>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed with
>>>>>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>>>>>
>>>>> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer moment
>>>>> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines with
>>>>> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota.
>>>>> Most engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before
> TDC.
>>>>> Honda and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore diameter.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much higher
>>>>> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
>>>>> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
>>>>
>>>> 1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications], not
>>>> friction.
>>>
>>> while that cite didn`t center on the ofset work being done now
> there
>>> are several manufactures expermenting with that very idea.
>>
>> it's an old idea and has been used for many decades.
>
> only as a noise and thrust face friction reducer, not as is now being
> expermented with as a power and efficiency enhancer.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> (which is a
>>> much larger ofset than being used for noise and thrust face loadiing
>>> being used now.)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.
>>>
>>> It most certainly did. can you not read???? KB
>>
>> ok, i re-read - it does. but i was lost again when he said "It makes
>> use of crank offset to create the required piston motion aimed at
> engine
>> efficiency improvements through thermodynamic performance gains." since
>> there is no relationship that correlates thermodynamic efficiency with
>> physical configuration.
>
> Ok if you ofset the crank and thus the piston also then at TDC the dwell
> time is increased (which gives more burn time at TDC and when the piston
> does start the downward motion the rod arm angle is a more direct push
> down creating greater torque and possible improved burn time before the
> exaust valve opens which can increase efficiency. Newer type concept for
> offset if they can keep the thrust face friction problems at bay.
> the old offset just offset the piston pin for cold start noise, ect.
> KB
>

that's mechanical efficiency not thermodynamic.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

jim beam > wrote in
t:

> On 11/18/2010 12:25 PM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>> jim > wrote in news:ss-
>> :
>>
>>> On 11/18/2010 06:57 AM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>>> jim > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>> article<a9f28533-5367-4da2-9afe-f1893e6ca...
>> @i4g2000pro.googlegroups
>>>>>>>> .com>,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>>>>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What
>>>>>>>>> explains the differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about
where
>>>>>>>> heat is going.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors
>> prove
>>>>>>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>>>>>>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed
with
>>>>>>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer
moment
>>>>>> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines
with
>>>>>> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota.
>>>>>> Most engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before
>> TDC.
>>>>>> Honda and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore
diameter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much
higher
>>>>>> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
>>>>>> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications],
not
>>>>> friction.
>>>>
>>>> while that cite didn`t center on the ofset work being done now
>> there
>>>> are several manufactures expermenting with that very idea.
>>>
>>> it's an old idea and has been used for many decades.
>>
>> only as a noise and thrust face friction reducer, not as is now
being
>> expermented with as a power and efficiency enhancer.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> (which is a
>>>> much larger ofset than being used for noise and thrust face loadiing
>>>> being used now.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.
>>>>
>>>> It most certainly did. can you not read???? KB
>>>
>>> ok, i re-read - it does. but i was lost again when he said "It makes
>>> use of crank offset to create the required piston motion aimed at
>> engine
>>> efficiency improvements through thermodynamic performance gains."
since
>>> there is no relationship that correlates thermodynamic efficiency
with
>>> physical configuration.
>>
>> Ok if you ofset the crank and thus the piston also then at TDC the
dwell
>> time is increased (which gives more burn time at TDC and when the
piston
>> does start the downward motion the rod arm angle is a more direct push
>> down creating greater torque and possible improved burn time before
the
>> exaust valve opens which can increase efficiency. Newer type concept
for
>> offset if they can keep the thrust face friction problems at bay.
>> the old offset just offset the piston pin for cold start noise,
ect.
>> KB
>>
>
> that's mechanical efficiency not thermodynamic.
>
>

I never even mentioned it was thermodynamic, they are always working on
inprovemnets, not all are thermodynamic in nature. KB

On 11/19/2010 06:24 PM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> jim > wrote in
> t:
>
>> On 11/18/2010 12:25 PM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>> jim > wrote in news:ss-
>>> :
>>>
>>>> On 11/18/2010 06:57 AM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>>>> jim > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/16/2010 12:05 AM, Peter Hill wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:51:15 -0800 (PST), bert
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 10:13�am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> article<a9f28533-5367-4da2-9afe-f1893e6ca...
>>> @i4g2000pro.googlegroups
>>>>>>>>> .com>,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Both of these engines combust fuel and a non-reciprocal motion
>>>>>>>>>> occures. �Both cases produces a circular motion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However both of these engines are quite different. �What
>>>>>>>>>> explains the differences in power output and efficiencies?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is this a homework question?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Two things: think about the combustion rate, and think about
> where
>>>>>>>>> heat is going.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also think about what happens when the load changes.
>>>>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Spinning is 87% better than going up and down. Electric motors
>>> prove
>>>>>>>> that by 100% The wheel is in My Spin is in theory is Nobel
>>>>>>>> stuff.Nature's universe is a huge fly wheel and is constructed
> with
>>>>>>>> wheels in wheels in wheels TreBert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Friction becomes stiction at TDC and BDC. To obtain a longer
> moment
>>>>>>> arm during the expansion stroke and thus better torque, engines
> with
>>>>>>> large offset of cylinder bore have been made by Honda and Toyota.
>>>>>>> Most engines have 1 or 2 mm offset so thrust face changes before
>>> TDC.
>>>>>>> Honda and Toyota are using offset in region of 15-20% bore
> diameter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But there are limits as the rod angle at BDC produces a much
> higher
>>>>>>> thrust load that gives an excessive amount of friction.
>>>>>>> http://eprints.usq.edu.au/4218/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. offsets are used to mitigate noise [esp. diesel applications],
> not
>>>>>> friction.
>>>>>
>>>>> while that cite didn`t center on the ofset work being done now
>>> there
>>>>> are several manufactures expermenting with that very idea.
>>>>
>>>> it's an old idea and has been used for many decades.
>>>
>>> only as a noise and thrust face friction reducer, not as is now
> being
>>> expermented with as a power and efficiency enhancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> (which is a
>>>>> much larger ofset than being used for noise and thrust face loadiing
>>>>> being used now.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. that cite mentions nothing about offsets.
>>>>>
>>>>> It most certainly did. can you not read???? KB
>>>>
>>>> ok, i re-read - it does. but i was lost again when he said "It makes
>>>> use of crank offset to create the required piston motion aimed at
>>> engine
>>>> efficiency improvements through thermodynamic performance gains."
> since
>>>> there is no relationship that correlates thermodynamic efficiency
> with
>>>> physical configuration.
>>>
>>> Ok if you ofset the crank and thus the piston also then at TDC the
> dwell
>>> time is increased (which gives more burn time at TDC and when the
> piston
>>> does start the downward motion the rod arm angle is a more direct push
>>> down creating greater torque and possible improved burn time before
> the
>>> exaust valve opens which can increase efficiency. Newer type concept
> for
>>> offset if they can keep the thrust face friction problems at bay.
>>> the old offset just offset the piston pin for cold start noise,
> ect.
>>> KB
>>>
>>
>> that's mechanical efficiency not thermodynamic.
>>
>>
>
> I never even mentioned it was thermodynamic,

but your cite did. and you certainly didn't make the effort to clarify.


> they are always working on
> inprovemnets, not all are thermodynamic in nature. KB

some people work on their spelling, not always without the assistance of
their computer's built-in spell checker.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum