lubing wheel lug nuts, does the lube kind really matters?

Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 06/29/2013 11:14 AM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 06/27/2013 02:06 PM, Geoff Welsh wrote:
>>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll Bros Suspension
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> does it really matter what you lube the threads with?
>>>>
>>>> Don't use lube. Use anti-seize. It's not a lube.
>>>> --scott
>>>>
>>>
>>> OT here...
>>> Scott's comment brings up something interesting I came across recently.
>>>
>>> The GM tools division, Kent-Moore, sells (to dealers, mostly) all sorts
>>> of specialty pullers etc, that come with a small tube of "high pressure
>>> lubricant" for the threads on the forcing screw of the tool.
>>>
>>> Curious about that "high pressure lubricant" one rainy day, I researched
>>> for some MSDS on some part numbers....and the sheet I found said the
>>> stuff is anti-seize.
>>>
>>> "Fascinating" - Lt. Cmdr. Spock
>>> GW
>>
>> "high pressure" is usually something containing molybdenum disulfide.
>>
>>
>
> Just to clarify, Kent-Moore isn't owned by GM, it's actually owned by
> Bosch who recently acquired SPX. They also don't make tools only for GM,
> they've made tools for various American brands in the past (e.g. most if
> not all of the Studebaker "J-tools" referenced in the shop manuals were
> made by Kent-Moore.) It appears today that they primarily do make GM
> tools but also still heavy truck brands as well.
>
> nate
>

"Just to clarify" as you say. Bosch didn't acquire SPX. SPX Corp
is fffing huge.

SPX Corp sold "SPX Service Solutions" to Bosch.

http://www.bosch-press.com/tbwebdb/b...CE338B3&id=512

GW

On 6/28/13 4:38 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 06/28/2013 04:51 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>> On 6/27/13 5:07 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 06/27/2013 03:54 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>>> does it really matter what you lube the threads with?
>>>>
>>>> local shops recommend graphite based lube
>>>> claiming motor oil would make subsequent disassembly harder rather than
>>>> easier
>>>>
>>>> and I was thinking using leftoever manual tranny oil
>>>>
>>>> living in snowbelt and running winter and all season sets on 15"(steel)
>>>> and 17"(aluminum) rims respectively
>>>
>>> think about it guy - why do you NOT want a liquid lube on anything that
>>> might fling onto a braking surface? this is not a trick question.
>>>
>> Well, rear wheels seems like a good playground since they contribute
>> little to the braking.
>> I guess I'll either use antiseize or keep using nothing on the threads
>> and the cheater's bar for undoing them
>>
>
> antiseize is fine - it doesn't fling unless you use far too much. it's
> used universally in the rust belt with none of the worry-warting with
> which others seem to be afflicted*.
>
>
>
> * stick with factory spec torque - new fasteners are all lubed as part
> of production/storage, so when they get assembled to spec., they snug up
> good and tight. but with use, they dry out and the metal galls. if
> you try to torque them "dry", the result is typically below spec because
> it's hung up and tripped the wrench before it's actually got where it
> needs to be.
>
funny that you'd mention that: I was wrestling with the washing machine
hose nut (securing the hose to the machine) over the weekend to no avail.
The rubber grommet is a tad bit too wide and I was not able
to torque the nut on with my bare hands even halfway, let alone
all the way ;-)

How effective is antiseize on preventing the wheels seizing on the wheel
hub over the winter?
Tire shop was hammering the left rear winter wheel off the A4 back in
april, when summer wheels went on the car.

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 13:52:55 +0300, "Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat
and Body Roll Bros Suspension Works" > wrote:

>On 6/28/13 4:38 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 06/28/2013 04:51 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>> On 6/27/13 5:07 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 06/27/2013 03:54 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>>>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>>>> does it really matter what you lube the threads with?
>>>>>
>>>>> local shops recommend graphite based lube
>>>>> claiming motor oil would make subsequent disassembly harder rather than
>>>>> easier
>>>>>
>>>>> and I was thinking using leftoever manual tranny oil
>>>>>
>>>>> living in snowbelt and running winter and all season sets on 15"(steel)
>>>>> and 17"(aluminum) rims respectively
>>>>
>>>> think about it guy - why do you NOT want a liquid lube on anything that
>>>> might fling onto a braking surface? this is not a trick question.
>>>>
>>> Well, rear wheels seems like a good playground since they contribute
>>> little to the braking.
>>> I guess I'll either use antiseize or keep using nothing on the threads
>>> and the cheater's bar for undoing them
>>>
>>
>> antiseize is fine - it doesn't fling unless you use far too much. it's
>> used universally in the rust belt with none of the worry-warting with
>> which others seem to be afflicted*.
>>
>>
>>
>> * stick with factory spec torque - new fasteners are all lubed as part
>> of production/storage, so when they get assembled to spec., they snug up
>> good and tight. but with use, they dry out and the metal galls. if
>> you try to torque them "dry", the result is typically below spec because
>> it's hung up and tripped the wrench before it's actually got where it
>> needs to be.
>>
>funny that you'd mention that: I was wrestling with the washing machine
>hose nut (securing the hose to the machine) over the weekend to no avail.
>The rubber grommet is a tad bit too wide and I was not able
>to torque the nut on with my bare hands even halfway, let alone
>all the way ;-)
>
>How effective is antiseize on preventing the wheels seizing on the wheel
>hub over the winter?
>Tire shop was hammering the left rear winter wheel off the A4 back in
>april, when summer wheels went on the car.

It works. It's always good for anything that can rust on. Won't last
forever, but it's about 100% better than nothing.
I've used it on wheel lugs and hubs for years.
Before anti-seize was always in my toolkit I wire-brushed and used
motor oil on lug threads. That worked too.
You just don't want to use so much that it gets flung off. And if
you're concerned about it affecting lug nut torque measurement, that's
insignificant - but only if you just anti-sieze the threads, not the
bottom of the nut. Basically use "common sense." Hard to define that
sometimes. I've only used anti-seize on threads because I just never
even thought about using it on nut bottoms. Whether that's "common
sense" or "luck" I don't know.
This might interest you, or not.
http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/posts/13070.html

On 07/01/2013 03:52 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
Bros Suspension Works wrote:
> On 6/28/13 4:38 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 06/28/2013 04:51 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>> On 6/27/13 5:07 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 06/27/2013 03:54 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>>>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>>>> does it really matter what you lube the threads with?
>>>>>
>>>>> local shops recommend graphite based lube
>>>>> claiming motor oil would make subsequent disassembly harder rather
>>>>> than
>>>>> easier
>>>>>
>>>>> and I was thinking using leftoever manual tranny oil
>>>>>
>>>>> living in snowbelt and running winter and all season sets on
>>>>> 15"(steel)
>>>>> and 17"(aluminum) rims respectively
>>>>
>>>> think about it guy - why do you NOT want a liquid lube on anything that
>>>> might fling onto a braking surface? this is not a trick question.
>>>>
>>> Well, rear wheels seems like a good playground since they contribute
>>> little to the braking.
>>> I guess I'll either use antiseize or keep using nothing on the threads
>>> and the cheater's bar for undoing them
>>>
>>
>> antiseize is fine - it doesn't fling unless you use far too much. it's
>> used universally in the rust belt with none of the worry-warting with
>> which others seem to be afflicted*.
>>
>>
>>
>> * stick with factory spec torque - new fasteners are all lubed as part
>> of production/storage, so when they get assembled to spec., they snug up
>> good and tight. but with use, they dry out and the metal galls. if
>> you try to torque them "dry", the result is typically below spec because
>> it's hung up and tripped the wrench before it's actually got where it
>> needs to be.
>>
> funny that you'd mention that: I was wrestling with the washing machine
> hose nut (securing the hose to the machine) over the weekend to no avail.
> The rubber grommet is a tad bit too wide and I was not able
> to torque the nut on with my bare hands even halfway, let alone
> all the way ;-)
>
> How effective is antiseize on preventing the wheels seizing on the wheel
> hub over the winter?

yes. rub a *thin* layer either onto the disk/hub face, or the inside of
the wheel where it touches. [the latter is better imo.]

where others say to not antiseize the lug nut head, i disagree - that is
a location for galling just like the threads and once galled, you'll not
get proper wheel torque. and because it's a sliding location, any
plating/factory lube is quickly torn off. when rust gets in, you'll
have seizure just as before, and post rust, an even worse friction
surface and more torque control issues.


> Tire shop was hammering the left rear winter wheel off

never let them do that - it'll brinnel the bearings and cost you both
money and inconvenience when it quickly needs to be replaced. if a
wheel is stuck, loosen the lug nuts then drive and brake. if it's a
rear, drive backwards and brake. that'll loosen a wheel every time,
without expensive collateral damage.


> the A4 back in
> april, when summer wheels went on the car.
>


--
fact check required

>> funny that you'd mention that: I was wrestling with the washing machine
>> hose nut (securing the hose to the machine) over the weekend to no avail.
>> The rubber grommet is a tad bit too wide and I was not able
>> to torque the nut on with my bare hands even halfway, let alone
>> all the way ;-)
>>
>> How effective is antiseize on preventing the wheels seizing on the wheel
>> hub over the winter?
>
> yes. rub a *thin* layer either onto the disk/hub face, or the inside of
> the wheel where it touches. [the latter is better imo.]
>

I was leaning onto lubing the wheel since I can prolly do that
before I go for the wheel swap appointment in fall
rather than on the spot.

> where others say to not antiseize the lug nut head, i disagree - that is
> a location for galling just like the threads and once galled, you'll not
> get proper wheel torque. and because it's a sliding location, any
> plating/factory lube is quickly torn off. when rust gets in, you'll
> have seizure just as before, and post rust, an even worse friction
> surface and more torque control issues.
>
>
>> Tire shop was hammering the left rear winter wheel off
>
> never let them do that - it'll brinnel the bearings and cost you both

what does brinnel mean?

> money and inconvenience when it quickly needs to be replaced. if a
> wheel is stuck, loosen the lug nuts then drive and brake. if it's a
> rear, drive backwards and brake. that'll loosen a wheel every time,
> without expensive collateral damage.
>
Thank you Jim. You keep saving me money ever since that manual tranny
rebuild that did not happen

I wonder if I should ever go that shop again after this hammering incident.

I don't remember if a leaking strut was discovered in that exact corner
of the car where the wheel was hammered off before or after the
hammering. Hmm.

On 07/01/2013 08:23 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>> funny that you'd mention that: I was wrestling with the washing machine
>>> hose nut (securing the hose to the machine) over the weekend to no
>>> avail.
>>> The rubber grommet is a tad bit too wide and I was not able
>>> to torque the nut on with my bare hands even halfway, let alone
>>> all the way ;-)
>>>
>>> How effective is antiseize on preventing the wheels seizing on the wheel
>>> hub over the winter?
>>
>> yes. rub a *thin* layer either onto the disk/hub face, or the inside of
>> the wheel where it touches. [the latter is better imo.]
>>
>
> I was leaning onto lubing the wheel since I can prolly do that
> before I go for the wheel swap appointment in fall
> rather than on the spot.
>
>> where others say to not antiseize the lug nut head, i disagree - that is
>> a location for galling just like the threads and once galled, you'll not
>> get proper wheel torque. and because it's a sliding location, any
>> plating/factory lube is quickly torn off. when rust gets in, you'll
>> have seizure just as before, and post rust, an even worse friction
>> surface and more torque control issues.
>>
>>
>>> Tire shop was hammering the left rear winter wheel off
>>
>> never let them do that - it'll brinnel the bearings and cost you both
>
> what does brinnel mean?

my bad on spelling- i really should know better! it's "brinell"

the brinell hardness test is where a ball bearing is pressed into the
subject material and the size of indent caused correlates to the
hardness of the material. when a bearing is "brinelled",
impact/overload has caused the bearing rollers/balls to indent the
races. serious brinelling is apparent immediately with noise. more
minor brinelling only becomes apparent later when the bearing starts to
spall and fail.

if you're lucky, the wheel came off before they had to hammer too hard
and the bearing's ok. but hammering a bearing is a huge no-no because
of the damage potential so you either need to "enlighten" the shop
accordingly, or simply avoid them in the future.

shops get into bad habits because they want to get stuff done quickly
and rarely connect the dots between what they've done and the subsequent
failure - afterall, once the vehicle is out of their shop, who knows
what you've done to it? but the fact remains, you should never hammer
wheels because of potential for bearing damage.

most of the big bearing houses have some kind of diagnosis and best
practice info online. anyone working with/around bearings should take
the time to read it.


>
>> money and inconvenience when it quickly needs to be replaced. if a
>> wheel is stuck, loosen the lug nuts then drive and brake. if it's a
>> rear, drive backwards and brake. that'll loosen a wheel every time,
>> without expensive collateral damage.
>>
> Thank you Jim. You keep saving me money ever since that manual tranny
> rebuild that did not happen
>
> I wonder if I should ever go that shop again after this hammering incident.
>
> I don't remember if a leaking strut was discovered in that exact corner
> of the car where the wheel was hammered off before or after the
> hammering. Hmm.

doubtful connection - unless the wheel was off the ground, the damper
was bottomed, and the hammering was oriented to cause knocking at the
damper's internal stops.


--
fact check required

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 07:23:46 -0700, jim beam > wrote:


>
>where others say to not antiseize the lug nut head, i disagree - that is
>a location for galling just like the threads and once galled, you'll not
>get proper wheel torque. and because it's a sliding location, any
>plating/factory lube is quickly torn off. when rust gets in, you'll
>have seizure just as before, and post rust, an even worse friction
>surface and more torque control issues.
>

I can buy the nut surface distorting torque reading.
You can decide which has the worse effect, anti-seizing or no
anti-seizing.
I posted a link that has info on that.
But seizure there doesn't pass the "common sense" test.
No way any rust there will provide any resistance not EASILY
overcome with the wrench.
Personally, all the wheel nut head bearing surfaces I've seen have
been smooth and shiny, with no significant galling.
But that's just me.

On 07/01/2013 09:29 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 07:23:46 -0700, jim beam > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> where others say to not antiseize the lug nut head, i disagree - that is
>> a location for galling just like the threads and once galled, you'll not
>> get proper wheel torque. and because it's a sliding location, any
>> plating/factory lube is quickly torn off. when rust gets in, you'll
>> have seizure just as before, and post rust, an even worse friction
>> surface and more torque control issues.
>>
>
> I can buy the nut surface distorting torque reading.
> You can decide which has the worse effect, anti-seizing or no
> anti-seizing.
> I posted a link that has info on that.
> But seizure there doesn't pass the "common sense" test.
> No way any rust there will provide any resistance not EASILY
> overcome with the wrench.
> Personally, all the wheel nut head bearing surfaces I've seen have
> been smooth and shiny, with no significant galling.
> But that's just me.

in many states, a lot of cars don't have significant rust, and they
indeed aren't a problem. but i recently worked on a car that had been
extensively salted, and the chromed nut faces were quite badly
undermined, and the wheel rim holes were rusty too. without antiseize,
torque was extremely inconsistent. this is why i was reminded to
mention it after you'd brought it up.


--
fact check required

On 07/01/2013 06:52 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
Bros Suspension Works wrote:
> On 6/28/13 4:38 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 06/28/2013 04:51 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>> On 6/27/13 5:07 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 06/27/2013 03:54 AM, Brake Dive, Acceleration Squat and Body Roll
>>>> Bros Suspension Works wrote:
>>>>> does it really matter what you lube the threads with?
>>>>>
>>>>> local shops recommend graphite based lube
>>>>> claiming motor oil would make subsequent disassembly harder rather
>>>>> than
>>>>> easier
>>>>>
>>>>> and I was thinking using leftoever manual tranny oil
>>>>>
>>>>> living in snowbelt and running winter and all season sets on
>>>>> 15"(steel)
>>>>> and 17"(aluminum) rims respectively
>>>>
>>>> think about it guy - why do you NOT want a liquid lube on anything that
>>>> might fling onto a braking surface? this is not a trick question.
>>>>
>>> Well, rear wheels seems like a good playground since they contribute
>>> little to the braking.
>>> I guess I'll either use antiseize or keep using nothing on the threads
>>> and the cheater's bar for undoing them
>>>
>>
>> antiseize is fine - it doesn't fling unless you use far too much. it's
>> used universally in the rust belt with none of the worry-warting with
>> which others seem to be afflicted*.
>>
>>
>>
>> * stick with factory spec torque - new fasteners are all lubed as part
>> of production/storage, so when they get assembled to spec., they snug up
>> good and tight. but with use, they dry out and the metal galls. if
>> you try to torque them "dry", the result is typically below spec because
>> it's hung up and tripped the wrench before it's actually got where it
>> needs to be.
>>
> funny that you'd mention that: I was wrestling with the washing machine
> hose nut (securing the hose to the machine) over the weekend to no avail.
> The rubber grommet is a tad bit too wide and I was not able
> to torque the nut on with my bare hands even halfway, let alone
> all the way ;-)
>
> How effective is antiseize on preventing the wheels seizing on the wheel
> hub over the winter?
> Tire shop was hammering the left rear winter wheel off the A4 back in
> april, when summer wheels went on the car.
>

It's not a perfect solution, but it does help.

The first time I removed the wheels from my car after I purchased it
(only serviced at the dealer prior to my ownership; official published
repair procedures mandate no lube/anti-seize on hub protrusion - I
deviate from those recommendations because I'm not aware of any real
danger of using something on the protrusion only, and all that hammering
can't be good for the wheel bearings) it required a chunk of 2x4 and a 5
lb. hammer to get each wheel off - every one was seized.

After cleaning everything up and using anti-seize, one time I did need
to kick the tires to break the wheels loose, but that's still a lot less
destructive. Most of the time it's only a couple months before I have
some occasion to take one or more wheels off, and in those instances I
have had no issues.

Whether anti-seize or grease is more effective in this application, I do
not know. I would recommend using one or the other but I haven't had
the opportunity e.g. to have two similar enough cars with similar usage
patterns in my care at the same time to do a really valid comparison.

I'd recommend using *something*; whether anti-seize or grease. I tend
to use anti-seize just because I usually don't have grease handy when
working on the car because there aren't any greaseable joints in the
suspension, but there's a little tiny pot of anti-seize in my toolbox.
However if the grease were closer, I'd probably use that.

nate

--
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