Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles

Elle > wrote:
> > wrote

>> Does PG&E promote time-of-use metering for some other reason?

> I was thinking you were getting at time-of-use metering designed to
> preclude, say, brownouts in summer.

Same idea. We don't want to add generating capacity on an already hot day,
which in turn generates a little more daytime heat. (Tokyo supposedly has
a higher core city temperature and humidity because of the air conditioner
exhaust that results in measurably higher usage of air conditioning.)

The summer rates are .29 day and .086 night. I classify anything that PG&E
does to be for economic reasons, but in addition to that, I can see benefit
from spreading the load, and use the PG&E numbers as a guide to how
worthwhile they think it is to spread the load. The winter numbers are .11
and .089.

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:23:34 -0700, (Jason) wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> (Gordon McGrew) wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 03:52:32 GMT, "FanJet" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bebop wrote:
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would stay away from hybrids. Saw one die in the middle of
>>>>>> traffic - no power and creating massive backups. The industry
>>>>>> will eventually go to hydrogen systems, but never electric.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hybrid is not true electric, thus the word "hybrid".
>>>>
>>>> Actually, they're true gasoline since that's their *only* power
>>>> source. "Hybrid" is a spin that gets people to purchase something
>>>> they otherwise wouldn't.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. I am as skeptical of "marketing" as anyone but I really don't
>>> think that people are buying the word, 'hybrid.' Some buyers like
>>> the high milage/green benefits. Others like the technology. I
>>> don't think anyone is buying because they like the word.
>>
>> Hello,
>> I disagree. The so called "greenies" love the word "hybrid" since
>> they love to tell their friends and almost anyone else that they
>> talk to that they have a "hybrid". They also like it when fellow
>> greenies see the word "hybrid" on the back of their cars." It's not
>> the actual word that they love--it's the thought behind the word. An
>> example is the word "diamond". It's the thought behind the word that
>> is important when it comes to "hybrid" or "diamond".
>
>> Jason
>
> Well it may be a matter of semantics but the way I see it, they are
> bragging the technology and benefits of the hybrid, not the word
> itself. I think most of them understand the technology reasonably
> well. It would be a different story if they had no real clue what
> 'hybrid' meant, or if hybrid technology didn't really do anything.
> Think Fahrfurnugen or Cab-Forward design. Got a Hemi in that thing?

I was talking with a proud Prius owner just the other day. She was very
pleased with her new car just as I am when I have a new vehicle. She showed
me all the screens and even cranked on the A/C pointing out that it worked
even when the car wasn't started. Very nice lady and a friend but in my
experience, a typical hybrid owner. The point is that her A/C isn't working
just because the heat-exchanger fan motor is running and, most importantly,
her car is entirely powered by gasoline - just like mine. Sure her car is a
bit more efficient using techniques such as regenerative braking but these
could be put to use on my car too. The real reason her car is more efficient
than mine has nothing to do with batteries or electric motors but is the
direct result of the computer control system and an advanced gasoline
engine. Naturally, both could be used on my car too. So, when you think
current hybrid, you should think Fahrfurnugen, Cab-Forward design or hemi.
You might also throw in extra profits & CAFE.

Abeness > wrote:
> To make long trips viable there needs to be a model similar to that of
> gasoline engines/gas stations as they are now. Obviously one can't wait
> around for batteries to charge up again at an electric "filling

I prefer to charge my own batteries, after last night's solar system
charge-up has been depleted. Plug-in hybrid solves that. No change at all
to the existing infrastructure, except to encourage more home installations
of solar, not a necessary component.


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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

jim beam > wrote:
> imo, the best most practical solution that meets the needs of urban,
> suburban and country dwellers is to encourage the use of smaller more
> efficient vehicles.

There was another thread about the excitement over the introduction of the
Honda Fit to the US, a high mileage vehicle without the hybrid do-dads.
What's wrong with a non-hybrid version of the Insight? I don't know, but
that doesn't seem to be marketable. What about a hybrid Fit? Instead of
60mpg, maybe it could get 90mpg.

I agree that a big part of the solution is getting into right-sized
vehicles. My Ford Escape replaces a Dodge Durango. Sometimes I miss the
extra room, but not often. I don't really miss the power.
Adding Hybrid to the Escape bumps the mpg in this area from 19 to 29.
If I could plug it in ...

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

FanJet > wrote:
> Sure her car is a bit more efficient using techniques such as
> regenerative braking but these could be put to use on my car too.

I'm not sure what you would do with all of the braking regenerative power.
You've said that before, ignoring that it is a lot of power, more than is
going to fit in your standard 12v battery, and more than you will consume
in playing the radio and starting the car in between braking.

> The real reason her car is more efficient than mine has nothing to do
> with batteries or electric motors but is the direct result of the
> computer control system and an advanced gasoline engine. Naturally, both
> could be used on my car too.

Why, then, is there no Honda Insight without the hybrid option?
That should be a very high mileage vehicle in its own right.
Maybe it would be too underpowered to be acceptable in the US.

> So, when you think current hybrid, you should think Fahrfurnugen,
> Cab-Forward design or hemi. You might also throw in extra profits &
> CAFE.

I thought you said the hybrids were a loss for the manufacturers, not a
source of extra profits. And if CAFE is the goal, why aren't these
non-hybrid improvements applied across the board?

The Honda Civic HX seems to have some of the Civic Hybrid features, minus
the hybrid and the regen braking, and it falls a little short in the mpg
department.

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

wrote:
> Abeness > wrote:
>
>>To make long trips viable there needs to be a model similar to that of
>>gasoline engines/gas stations as they are now. Obviously one can't wait
>>around for batteries to charge up again at an electric "filling
>
>
> I prefer to charge my own batteries, after last night's solar system
> charge-up has been depleted. Plug-in hybrid solves that. No change at all
> to the existing infrastructure, except to encourage more home installations
> of solar, not a necessary component.

You missed my point, which is that plugging in to charge is not viable
for long trips.

Abeness > wrote:
> You missed my point, which is that plugging in to charge is not viable
> for long trips.

I can travel about as far as I want with my hybrid, with the 450 mile stops
for gasoline. If I could plug in while at home, my local travels would be
more efficient, maybe close to all-electric. If I went on the road, I
would be more efficient than a gas-only vehicle, and need no additional
infrastructure.

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

In article >, wrote:

>I can travel about as far as I want with my hybrid, with the 450 mile stops
>for gasoline. If I could plug in while at home, my local travels would be
>more efficient, maybe close to all-electric. If I went on the road, I
>would be more efficient than a gas-only vehicle, and need no additional
>infrastructure.

Plug-in hybrids seem to make sense. Though you'll need a bigger
battery (at added cost, mass, volume or reduced cargo capacity) to
make it viable. Bigger battery and greater range of discharge is
needed to use it effectively. Battery life is adversely affected
with greater range of discharge. Present hybrids get around this by
keeping the state-of-charge in a narrow band (say +/- 10%).

I'm not saying it is not doable. In fact, I think it could well
play a significant role. But just off the top of my head, it will
incur some significant costs and tradeoffs.

In article >, "FanJet" > wrote:

>The real reason her car is more efficient
>than mine has nothing to do with batteries or electric motors but is the
>direct result of the computer control system and an advanced gasoline
>engine.

Huh?
I recall an SAE sponsored talk from a Honda VP who said that the
Insight got about a third of its mpg benefit from each of:
lightweighting, engine downsizing and efficiency improvements, regen
braking.

The battery/motor is directly responsible for the latter. How will
you do regen without a motor/generator?

The hybridization enables the engine downsizing, ie it allows you to
maintain acceptable acceleration with a smaller engine.

And the hybridization allows you power management advantages, ie you
can run the engine in more efficient ranges. Sourcing/sinking to
the batteries allows this.

The Prius is not light like the Insight. And it has a much larger
battery. Thus much more of its mpg benefit is directly due to
hybridization.

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:30:50 GMT, "FanJet" >
wrote:

>Gordon McGrew wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:23:34 -0700, (Jason) wrote:

>>> Hello,
>>> I disagree. The so called "greenies" love the word "hybrid" since
>>> they love to tell their friends and almost anyone else that they
>>> talk to that they have a "hybrid". They also like it when fellow
>>> greenies see the word "hybrid" on the back of their cars." It's not
>>> the actual word that they love--it's the thought behind the word. An
>>> example is the word "diamond". It's the thought behind the word that
>>> is important when it comes to "hybrid" or "diamond".
>>
>>> Jason
>>
>> Well it may be a matter of semantics but the way I see it, they are
>> bragging the technology and benefits of the hybrid, not the word
>> itself. I think most of them understand the technology reasonably
>> well. It would be a different story if they had no real clue what
>> 'hybrid' meant, or if hybrid technology didn't really do anything.
>> Think Fahrfurnugen or Cab-Forward design. Got a Hemi in that thing?
>
>I was talking with a proud Prius owner just the other day. She was very
>pleased with her new car just as I am when I have a new vehicle. She showed
>me all the screens and even cranked on the A/C pointing out that it worked
>even when the car wasn't started. Very nice lady and a friend but in my
>experience, a typical hybrid owner. The point is that her A/C isn't working
>just because the heat-exchanger fan motor is running and, most importantly,
>her car is entirely powered by gasoline - just like mine. Sure her car is a
>bit more efficient using techniques such as regenerative braking but these
>could be put to use on my car too. The real reason her car is more efficient
>than mine has nothing to do with batteries or electric motors but is the
>direct result of the computer control system and an advanced gasoline
>engine. Naturally, both could be used on my car too.

Really? Don't all cars have advanced engines and computer control
these days? I am not aware of any particular advancements in the
Prius' gasoline motor which would explain it's exceptional fuel
economy. The computer only improves economy because it has a battery
and motor to control. If manufacturers could get the same benefit
without these expensive parts, why don't they do it? The fact is that
the most advanced gas engine with computer control cannot match this
efficiency level, at least not with acceptable performance.

> So, when you think
>current hybrid, you should think Fahrfurnugen, Cab-Forward design or hemi.
>You might also throw in extra profits & CAFE.

I thought everyone was saying that the manufacturers are losing money
on hybrids. As for CAFE, it wouldn't help your CAFE if it didn't
improve milage.