A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto makers » Ford Mustang
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Greedy *******s.....



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old October 28th 06, 03:12 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Greedy *******s.....

In article >, Nicholas Anthony wrote:

> four per dealership. I bet if they had increased production there would be
> much fewer BMW's or Corvettes sold.


Of course. It's going to come down to availablity for a lot of people.
The chevy dealer a few blocks away from me has no trouble keeping
Corvettes in stock and quite clearly sells them in volume, not as sacred
relics. I doubt a BMW dealer is going to give a buyer any problems over a
335i either. Meanwhile Ford dealers are going to play games over their
only model in this market segment.

> I just left a local Ford dealership and
> asked about the Shelby GT that comes out in January. They said they were
> also going to cost $20k over sticker, sigh... Ford needs to change this
> mentality people do remember and when the Camaro and Charger come out will
> throw it back in their face if they could.


I am tempted to wait until they come out just for that. Odds are the
GT500 will be canceled for low sales before that happens. Low sales with
all this interest because the dealer network upped the price far out of
wack with what the car is and the buyers went elsewhere.

> IMO that is the only reason why
> they are getting away with this, no competition. Personally I would buy a
> Corvette over a Shelby GT costing $55k more car for the money and a weight a
> sports car should be.


The vette isn't exactly a lightweight, but for the prices dealers are
asking for the GT500, one can get a top of the line vette or close to it
or an M3 or various other cars that are simply more bang for the buck.

> Greed is what is killing this company. A great example of this is buying a
> bunch of the European luxury makers and forgetting what Henry Ford believed
> in the first place, a car for the common man.


There really isn't a problem with them having said makes. The big problem is
that most of the Ford line is boring crap. The 500, a warmed over volvo
if I remember right, isn't doing it.


Ads
  #12  
Old October 28th 06, 03:19 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Greedy *******s.....

In article >, Michael Johnson, PE wrote:

> In the end no one is holding a gun to a buyers head and forcing him to
> pay a given price. You know who really sets the price? It's the buyer.
> If no one is willing to pay the dealer's asking price then they will
> eventually lower the it until the car sells. It's a real simple concept.


Absence of a gun to your head is not the definition of a free market.

> The reason the prices are silly right now is there are a few people
> willing to pay what I consider and outrageous price for the few
> available cars.


Didn't I just finish writing that?

> Once the dealers wade through these buyers and the cars
> aren't moving at the current prices they will have to lower the price to
> get off the inventory.


Maybe.


>>> You are absolutely right, the buyers set the price, not the
>>> dealers. If any one of us had a vintage GT500 we would sell it for the
>>> highest price we could get and not a penny lower.


>> New in production cars are not collector items. There are no more vintage
>> GT500s being made. There X surviors and that's it. There are Y people
>> that want them. Apples and oranges.


> And there will ultimately be a limited number of GT500s.


There will ultimately be a limited number of Foci, just as there are a
limited number of Tempos and Pintos.

> A vintage
> GT500 falls under the same supply and demand forces as a 2007 GT500.


No it doesn't by the very fact the 2007 GT500 is in production. There
will never be another '67 GT500, only less.

> If
> Ford made GT500s like they make Fusions what do you think the price
> would be?


MSRP or less just like every practically other production new vehicle on the
market.

> You and I are no different from Ford. We all will take the
> highest price for whatever item we are selling.


I would weigh permantly ****ing off customers and getting customers to
look at vehicles from other manufacturers into the equation. I would
consider those long term losses to be more important than the short term
gain. But hey, I am not chairman of Ford as it loses billions every
quarter. The short term thinking seems to be working out well for them
don't you think?

> I don't fault the
> dealer for getting the highest price they can command. It is the way
> capitalism works.


Yes, capitalism in practice is rarely free market. It's about
manipulating markets and creating monopolies really.

> I will be ****ed off at Ford if they don't produce
> the number of units they have stated.


Which is exactly what will happen as people end up buying something else
because Ford dealers wanted an extra 20 grand.

> If they don't there is a good
> chance I will not be a Ford only buyer anymore. That is how I will make
> my statement on the matter.


Then we are in agreement.


  #13  
Old October 28th 06, 03:21 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Greedy *******s.....

In article >, Mark Henry wrote:

> When he says that's not the real price, that it's actually $70k then
> tell him you'll be back in with the local investigative news program to
> ask him why he's running a bait-and-switch. Be reasonable, but be a
> little loud about it and watch what happens.


The sticker isn't advertising. The sticker is just what the manufacturer
MSRP is and nothing more. It was to let buyers know what the MSRP is. The
dealer is apparently playing by the letter of the law. If the dealer
removed the window sticker and replaced it with their own at $70K that
would be a story for the news people.


  #14  
Old October 28th 06, 04:06 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Michael Johnson, PE
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 272
Default Greedy *******s.....

Brent P wrote:
> In article >, Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>> In the end no one is holding a gun to a buyers head and forcing him to
>> pay a given price. You know who really sets the price? It's the buyer.
>> If no one is willing to pay the dealer's asking price then they will
>> eventually lower the it until the car sells. It's a real simple concept.

>
> Absence of a gun to your head is not the definition of a free market.


You're free NOT to pay the asking price.

>> The reason the prices are silly right now is there are a few people
>> willing to pay what I consider and outrageous price for the few
>> available cars.

>
> Didn't I just finish writing that?\


So, why blame the dealer for high prices? It is just as much the fault
of the buyer.

>> Once the dealers wade through these buyers and the cars
>> aren't moving at the current prices they will have to lower the price to
>> get off the inventory.

>
> Maybe.


If Ford makes enough GT500s this will happen.

>>>> You are absolutely right, the buyers set the price, not the
>>>> dealers. If any one of us had a vintage GT500 we would sell it for the
>>>> highest price we could get and not a penny lower.

>
>>> New in production cars are not collector items. There are no more vintage
>>> GT500s being made. There X surviors and that's it. There are Y people
>>> that want them. Apples and oranges.

>
>> And there will ultimately be a limited number of GT500s.

>
> There will ultimately be a limited number of Foci, just as there are a
> limited number of Tempos and Pintos.


You seem to think their is a difference in selling a vintage GT500
verses a 2007 model. Market forces are the same for both cars. If you
have a problem with a 2007 GT500 selling for $60k then you should have a
problem with a vintage one selling for $100k.

>> A vintage
>> GT500 falls under the same supply and demand forces as a 2007 GT500.

>
> No it doesn't by the very fact the 2007 GT500 is in production. There
> will never be another '67 GT500, only less.


They both fall under the same principle of supply and demand. In a few
months there will never be another 2007 GT500, only less.

>> If
>> Ford made GT500s like they make Fusions what do you think the price
>> would be?

>
> MSRP or less just like every practically other production new vehicle on the
> market.
>
>> You and I are no different from Ford. We all will take the
>> highest price for whatever item we are selling.

>
> I would weigh permantly ****ing off customers and getting customers to
> look at vehicles from other manufacturers into the equation. I would
> consider those long term losses to be more important than the short term
> gain. But hey, I am not chairman of Ford as it loses billions every
> quarter. The short term thinking seems to be working out well for them
> don't you think?


EVERY dealer does what Ford is doing when they have a super hot limited
production vehicle. It is what every business does when they have a
chance to maximize profits. I do it every chance I get. Every time you
accept a raise you do it too. Ford loosing money right now isn't a
result of overcharging for their vehicles. They need desirable
products, IMO. Most people (in fact, nearly all of them) in this
country could care less what Ford gets for a GT500. They only care
about what Ford gets from THEM.

>> I don't fault the
>> dealer for getting the highest price they can command. It is the way
>> capitalism works.

>
> Yes, capitalism in practice is rarely free market. It's about
> manipulating markets and creating monopolies really.


It's about beating your competition and making your products desirable.

>> I will be ****ed off at Ford if they don't produce
>> the number of units they have stated.

>
> Which is exactly what will happen as people end up buying something else
> because Ford dealers wanted an extra 20 grand.


They won't want an extra $20k if the cars are backing up on their lots
unsold. IMO, this will happen if Ford makes the number of GT500s they
have stated.

>> If they don't there is a good
>> chance I will not be a Ford only buyer anymore. That is how I will make
>> my statement on the matter.

>
> Then we are in agreement.


Finally!
  #15  
Old October 28th 06, 04:44 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Greedy *******s.....

I've read all the posts and most are correct. I bought my first Ford (05
GT, 5 Spd, sonic blue) due to the Camaro being cancelled in 'early 05 and
then they saw the error of thier ways.

Ford did the same thing with the GT (GT40 remake). The list was $140K and
the dealers were selling for $250+. The GT40, GT500 and Shelby are niche
cars. Most will be purchased, then stored and shown on rare occaisions.
You can buy a Mustang GT for about $29K full loaded and then if you reallly
want, put on the supercharger for about $5K to get to the 500HP range.

At a local meeting I saw/heard the first Shelby sold in San Antonio. Wasn't
impressed by the interior finish or the engine, I expected more for $70K. I
did like the hood (although the hood scoops are non-functional) and I REALLY
do like the front end, very much more agressive than the standard Mustang
GT.

Is Ford short changing the loyal customer base, IMHO, YES. Look at their
sales numbers and quarterly loss statements. Ford recently (posted in this
NG) told any Mustang related item, they either had to pay a licensing fee or
be sued. Possibly Ford should pay a royalty fee to the breeders that named
the Mustang in the first place as that's where Ford got the name for the
"Pony" car???

For $70K, I'll purchase a BMW or Porsche, while I like my Mustang GT, no
Ford (short of the classics) are worth $70K.


"Henry" > wrote in message
...
>
> Last year I put my name on a waiting list for a GT500
> with an out of town dealer. I was number nine on the list.
> I figured if I could get a brand new reliable Mustang with
> 500 hp for around 45K I might go for it. After several inquiries
> and many months, I finally received an email stating that the
> price is $65,000. I replied that I wasn't interested.
> So yesterday, I stop in at the local Ford dealer - not
> the one with the waiting list - to pick up an e brake cable
> for my Ranger. Holy ****, there's a GT500 on the showroom
> floor! I didn't think they were going to get any, so I never
> asked. I looked it over closely, and there are only two
> things I don't like - the white color and the stripes. But
> I do like the fact that the only price displayed on the car
> is the MSRP of $43K in the window. This dealer is known for
> its fair pricing, so when the sales guy walked over I asked
> him if they are selling the car for the price on the window
> sticker. He smiles and says "no". "How much is it", I ask.
> He disappears for a minute, comes back, and says "seventy
> thousand". I laughed and told him I'd wait for the price
> to reach a sane number. No way is it worth that. Ford
> should at least have used an aluminum block to keep some
> weight off the nose. Are people actually paying that much for
> them? Any guesses on what they'll sell for next year?
>
>
> --
>
>
> http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.htm
> http://911research.wtc7.net
> http://www.st911.org



  #16  
Old October 28th 06, 06:11 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
dumb & dumber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Greedy *******s.....

can't afford it? clone it

  #17  
Old October 28th 06, 07:06 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Greedy *******s.....

In article >, ZombyWoof wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:58:14 -0500,
> (Brent P) wrote something wonderfully witty:
>
>>In article >, ZombyWoof wrote:
>>
>>> That is the textbook definition of supply & demand.

>>
>>The textbook doesn't have supply being manipulated.


> Supply in a demand economy is always manipulated by the supplier.


Not in a free market. In a free market other suppliers step in.

> Only in a command economy are their external forces (government
> oversight or quotas) placed on the supplier. It is only one of many
> ways that the supplier has to ensure that they price for their
> products stay at a price point. Supply & demand also dictates that
> when there is not enough supply to meet demand another supplier is
> free to enter the marketplace.


Yet, other ford dealers can't enter the marketplace and undercut those
adding 20 grand to price because of ford's allotment set up. Not a free
market.

>>So you're fine with market manipulations. You must enjoy $3.20/gallon
>>gasoline then. After all, there are just so many companies with gasoline
>>and they decide how to sell it, how to distribute it, how much to make,
>>wether to maintain their pipelines or not. We don't need gasoline either,
>>we can use other forms of transporation that aren't as enjoyable just we
>>could use a beat up '92 Tempo instead of a '07 GT500.


> No one is manipulating the market for pony cars.


I didn't say anyone was. Any more than you're saying spacemen are telling
you what to post.

> Your to wrapped
> around the axle about a specific product from a specific manufacturer
> in a demand economy.


Not at all.

> You miss the point of we don't need gasoline as in we could use
> alternative fuels.


I already posted nobody needs gasoline.

> A person who doesn't want to pony
> up the going price for a GT500 could go with a different comparable
> vehicle from a different manufacturer. Its the idiots who just have
> to have that first `07 GT500 who will pay for it regardless of the
> price.


It's quite clear what I am saying is beyond your grasp.

>>Ford can keep playing these games they are free to do so, but as we see
>>here, it's turning off it's most loyal customer base. Part of the reason
>>they are ****ter no doubt.


> Nah you are talking about one spaciality vehicle. The reason they are
> in the ****ter is because they are bringing out an entire line of
> vehicles across all price points that are creating the same level of
> interest as just this one is within a specific group of people. My
> Pops could care less about an `07 GT500.


Their general practices across the board. Each year they lose more of
what would be repeat buyers and they aren't bringing in new ones.

>>Don't try to justify this pricing with free market reasoning when it is
>>anything but a free market situation.


> Actually a true free market has to do about tariffs and such so the
> whole discussion is hogwash.


Free market is not the neo-con definition where everything comes to the
US from china and mexico tariff free.

>>> The market always has a choice to reject any non life essential
>>> product that is placed into it. What makes a market free is its
>>> ability to demand or reject products placed into it. No one is forced
>>> to buy GT500's at any price.


>>And as we see, people are rejecting it and rejecting Ford (at least for
>>the short term) as a result. But don't give me and any of the others who
>>find this practice objectionable a line of crap that it's the free market
>>and we have to love it. It's not free market, it's marketing.


> Of course it is part of marketing. Well sir you can't afford this top
> of the line drool over model, but perhaps I could interest you in this
> look a like base Mustang model. You can't drive the GT500 at its top
> performance levels anyhow so why worry about the fact that your not
> rich or famous enough.


Are you trying to make a lame example of a car salesman or being
insulting?


  #18  
Old October 28th 06, 07:31 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Greedy *******s.....

In article >, Michael Johnson, PE wrote:

>> Absence of a gun to your head is not the definition of a free market.


> You're free NOT to pay the asking price.


That price isn't being set by free market conditions.

>>> The reason the prices are silly right now is there are a few people
>>> willing to pay what I consider and outrageous price for the few
>>> available cars.


>> Didn't I just finish writing that?


> So, why blame the dealer for high prices? It is just as much the fault
> of the buyer.


That's why I called the buyers who paid it morons and idiots. Try to pay
attention.

>>> Once the dealers wade through these buyers and the cars
>>> aren't moving at the current prices they will have to lower the price to
>>> get off the inventory.


>> Maybe.


> If Ford makes enough GT500s this will happen.


Doesn't look like they are going to.

>>> And there will ultimately be a limited number of GT500s.


>> There will ultimately be a limited number of Foci, just as there are a
>> limited number of Tempos and Pintos.


> You seem to think their is a difference in selling a vintage GT500
> verses a 2007 model. Market forces are the same for both cars. If you
> have a problem with a 2007 GT500 selling for $60k then you should have a
> problem with a vintage one selling for $100k.


Market forces are entirely different for a product that is in production
vs. one declared collectable. Any auction house should be able to explain
the difference. And yes, I don't think the vintage ones are worth a 100K.
And once the baby boomers start dying off they won't be any more.

>>> A vintage
>>> GT500 falls under the same supply and demand forces as a 2007 GT500.


>> No it doesn't by the very fact the 2007 GT500 is in production. There
>> will never be another '67 GT500, only less.


> They both fall under the same principle of supply and demand. In a few
> months there will never be another 2007 GT500, only less.


In a year's time you can say that. But there is a free market of vintage
cars because they trade hands privately and nobody is controlling supply.
Let's say Bob and Frank have identical '67 GT500s. Bob needs money bad,
Frank doesn't. Frank is asking a $110K, Bob needs the money sooner and
undercuts Frank, you buy Bob's car for $102K. That doesn't happen in the
new car game when a dealer just has one or two of a car that has any kind
of demand for it and won't get any more. They, like Frank, can just sit
and wait until someone will pay what they ask. They don't have to move
the cars, they can just let them sit and wait for the payoff.

>>> You and I are no different from Ford. We all will take the
>>> highest price for whatever item we are selling.


>> I would weigh permantly ****ing off customers and getting customers to
>> look at vehicles from other manufacturers into the equation. I would
>> consider those long term losses to be more important than the short term
>> gain. But hey, I am not chairman of Ford as it loses billions every
>> quarter. The short term thinking seems to be working out well for them
>> don't you think?


> EVERY dealer does what Ford is doing when they have a super hot limited
> production vehicle. It is what every business does when they have a
> chance to maximize profits. I do it every chance I get.


So you screw over every ignorant customer that walks in your door? Where
do you draw the line on maximizing profits? Where's the line? Or is there
even a line?

> Every time you
> accept a raise you do it too. Ford loosing money right now isn't a
> result of overcharging for their vehicles. They need desirable
> products, IMO. Most people (in fact, nearly all of them) in this
> country could care less what Ford gets for a GT500. They only care
> about what Ford gets from THEM.


My father had a bad chevy once. He didn't get treated well by the chevy
dealer either. That was in 1981. He will never buy a GM car again. Since
1981 no matter what GM makes it doesn't matter, won't even walk into the
dealership. That's what I am getting at.

If you are always seeking to maximize profits now you are going to need a
constant supply of new customers to make up for the ones who later
learned better or felt you were trying to screw them and walked out the
door and bought from someone else. Maximizing profits in the short term
carries a great deal of risk for the long term. Unlike you apparently, I
would consider that.

>>> I don't fault the
>>> dealer for getting the highest price they can command. It is the way
>>> capitalism works.


>> Yes, capitalism in practice is rarely free market. It's about
>> manipulating markets and creating monopolies really.


> It's about beating your competition and making your products desirable.


The beating your competition part is part I was refering to. For example,
microsoft's practices.

>>> I will be ****ed off at Ford if they don't produce
>>> the number of units they have stated.


>> Which is exactly what will happen as people end up buying something else
>> because Ford dealers wanted an extra 20 grand.


> They won't want an extra $20k if the cars are backing up on their lots
> unsold. IMO, this will happen if Ford makes the number of GT500s they
> have stated.


If they don't cancel it for it lack of orders.

  #19  
Old October 28th 06, 07:47 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Ashton Crusher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 324
Default Greedy *******s.....

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:27:53 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, ZombyWoof wrote:
>
>> can get". You have to remember that it isn't Ford that is setting the
>> market price, it is the market itself.

>
>I am so tired of that saying.... the markets are often manipulated, and
>the GT500 can be used as a text book study of market manipulation and
>artificial scarcity.
>


If we were talking about Ford Escorts or Taurus's I might agree, but
this is a limited production specialty vehicle that not a single
person on earth *needs* to have. By definition the whole point of this
kind of vehicle is that they are scarce and overpriced and intended
for people with more money then they have a need for. I suppose you
can call it market manipulation but it's certainly not the same kind
of manipulation for greedy and nefarious purposes as the oil price
game is. Ford isn't trying to manipulate a mid-term congressional
election outcome they way the oil companies are doing.


>> If that dealer is able to move
>> the one it has at $70k it will try to move the next one it gets at
>> $70k. I don't know how much the dealers are paying for the cars when
>> they but them from Ford, but it is safe to assume somewhere less then
>> sticker price.

>
>When each dealer gets one or two, they can up the price a great deal and
>wait for a sucker, the abberation of an uninformed buyer. Not only that,
>but it's not like the dealer down the street or the next town over can
>bring the price down. He's only got a couple to sell too, so even if he
>sells them at sticker, the first dealer can still wait for a sucker or
>someone with more money than sense and wants it now.
>
>Ideal free market conditions would have another dealer being able to come
>in and supply more cars at a lower price to undercut the dealers charging
>$20K over sticker. Ford controls the supply of cars without regard to
>what dealers are charging and thusly the market isn't free. $65K isn't
>the price a free market will bear, but rather the maximum price a
>manipulated market can be pushed to.
>
>This isn't free market setting the price, it's market manipulation and
>artificial scarcity in action. The market is being controlled to create
>conditions that increase prices rather than the ideal free market setting
>of the price.

  #20  
Old October 28th 06, 05:13 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Mark Foreman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Greedy *******s.....

At $70K for a Mustang, I'll take an E Saleen...its only 60K and has
550HP....looks better too!

Mark

"Henry" > wrote in message
...
>
> Last year I put my name on a waiting list for a GT500
> with an out of town dealer. I was number nine on the list.
> I figured if I could get a brand new reliable Mustang with
> 500 hp for around 45K I might go for it. After several inquiries
> and many months, I finally received an email stating that the
> price is $65,000. I replied that I wasn't interested.
> So yesterday, I stop in at the local Ford dealer - not
> the one with the waiting list - to pick up an e brake cable
> for my Ranger. Holy ****, there's a GT500 on the showroom
> floor! I didn't think they were going to get any, so I never
> asked. I looked it over closely, and there are only two
> things I don't like - the white color and the stripes. But
> I do like the fact that the only price displayed on the car
> is the MSRP of $43K in the window. This dealer is known for
> its fair pricing, so when the sales guy walked over I asked
> him if they are selling the car for the price on the window
> sticker. He smiles and says "no". "How much is it", I ask.
> He disappears for a minute, comes back, and says "seventy
> thousand". I laughed and told him I'd wait for the price
> to reach a sane number. No way is it worth that. Ford
> should at least have used an aluminum block to keep some
> weight off the nose. Are people actually paying that much for
> them? Any guesses on what they'll sell for next year?
>
>
> --
>
>
> http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.htm
> http://911research.wtc7.net
> http://www.st911.org



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.