GTR - An Appreciation

"Steve Smith" > wrote
> And the tracks? As Jon Stewart would say, "Mmmm...not so much." The 10
> tracks that ship with the game replicate those on the FIA's GT
> Championship
> calendar, but other than the modern Spa, they're either emasculated,
> chicane-infested versions of once-great tracks (like Monza), or boring,
> dull, flat modern tracks (like Magny-Cours). A trickle of 3rd-party
> tracks
> (sure to become a flood) includes several versions of the Nordschleife
> (nobody's got it right yet), a terrible version of Le Mans (somehow
> running
> endlessly downhill, like an M.C. Escher painting), and two really neat
> small
> tracks, Sweden's Falkenberg and Germany's Norisring. T


Therefore, I'll pass. Or perhaps more, wait 6 months to a year after so
that 3rd-party users finally get a clue on how to design tracks. Note to
them : TAKE YOUR TIME before releasing tracks.


It all goes back to the point I was making, licensing real-life tracks
*is* important. Developpers simply have more time, more power and more
tools than third-party people have in general. There will be exceptions to
that, but we'll have to wait a long time. I have simply no fun in driving
1) boring tracks or 2) bad tracks. Whatever the realism of everything else.
Perhaps they should have licensed alternate versions of the FIA tracks, you
know a Monza chicane-less, etc... Now *THAT* would have been interesting
and very much legal. They licensed the friggin track! Why not take a
couple of man-hours and model the track differently? It's not like
everything in the game is absolute FIA to start with.


Thanks for the review btw





--
-- François Ménard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

There are some reputable sellers importing to the US - all you need is a
C/C. I bought mine on a Monday, I had it in my mailbox (NYC) on the Friday,
no problems, 'cept for the miserable dollar ...

As for Steve, can't agree more except - the setpus man! Not to be an a-hole,
but they understeer brutally (or is that push?).

As for setups, the amazing thing about GTR is the difference in
setup/handling between the front engined and mid-engined machines. And then
there is the Lamborghini, for which no setup works, it's just a wild-wild
ride.
"Steve Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Noch nicht. They're still lining up a publisher for the U.S.. It's my
> understanding that Atari is publishing GTR in the U.K. late next month.
> EA
> has also been mentioned at a possible North American publisher.
>
> Several fans have ordered their copies direct from Germany (there are
> 3rd-party files to convert the menus and radio traffic to English). There
> may also be a U.S. reseller like GoGamer importing them on an ad hoc
> basis.
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Dear Steve. Is fia gt racing available in north america? I played the
>> demo and i think its the best driving game ever! Im having a hard time
>> finding it here in Alberta Canada. Thanks for your time. Hans
>>
>
>

In article >,
says...

> What more could you ask?

For you to write more reviews. Great read. Looking forward to the
English version of GTR.

Cheers,
Rod.

(Blush!) Thanx, Rod!

"RodP" > wrote in message
news:MPG.1c5847de5b812f349896d5@news-server...
> In article >,
> says...
>
> > What more could you ask?
>
> For you to write more reviews. Great read. Looking forward to the
> English version of GTR.
>
> Cheers,
> Rod.

Steve Smith wrote:
> GTR - A Sim to Believe In
>
> (Part Preview, Part Review)
>
> I'm amazed at the outpouring of negativity surrounding SimBin's "GTR" (for
> the FIA's "GT Racing") by people who haven't played the game...even some
> from people who haven't bothered to play the demo! And among those who have
> actually played the game, a lot of the complaints are picayune, like the
> game doesn't strictly follow the FIA's insanely complicated rulebook, or the
> track marshals' booths aren't the regulation size.
>
> The truth is, it's a great game. Yes, it has some rough edges, and thus far
> it's only available--legally--in Germany (time-frame for U.S. distro: Feb.
> or March), but no, it's neither broken nor a simple mod of EA's Formula 1
> Challenge (altho SimBin has licensed ISI's "Motor 1" physics engine, along
> with all that rococo FIA livery). The bottom line is that GTR comes closer
> to an authentic racing experience than anything else that doesn't require a
> Nomex driving suit and a 5-point seat harness.
>
> I've driven almost three thousand laps of GTR, both online and off, for an
> assignment from Car and Driver, and as someone who's put six years into GPL,
> beta-tested a myriad of PC and console games, and raced both real-world cars
> (Trans-Am, SCCA Nationals) and every kind of racing simulation there is
> (beginning with Dave Kaemmer's original Indy 500), I'm here to tell you that
> GTR is the best thing to come roaring down the track--for car guys as well
> as computer geeks--since Papyrus' NASCAR Racing 2003...and GTR makes NR2003
> seem positively crude by comparison.
>
> Through the good offices of Ian Bell, who oversees SimBin's development team
> in London, I was able to obtain a pre-release of the English-language
> version, eventually patched to ver 1.2.3, and I've since unofficially
> downloaded several 3rd-party tracks (including a 24-hour version of the
> mighty Nurburgring). To put it plainly: I love this game. Yes, it's got
> more bugs than the Okefenokee Swamp in August (the menus are a mess, the
> replay system is frustrating, the multiplayer is iffy, and there is a
> surfeit of small annoyances), but overall it's hard-co deeply immersive,
> very satisfying, and full of promise. Sure, I signed a NDA, but Ian said I
> can vent my impressions of the game, so here goes.
>
> First of all: the cars. There are a slew of them, from the mundane (a
> gaggle of Porsche 911s...altho a 3rd-party GT1 is lurking in the wings) to
> the exotic (the widely-unknown Gillet Vertigo Streiff, a Belgian bolide
> named after an obscure French F1 driver of the 80s) to the awesome (the
> Corvette C5-R) to the sublime (a trio of Ferraris) to the ridiculous (a BMW
> *hatchback*, ferchrissake, and a neo-deco Morgan 8 Aero that looks like
> something out of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow"). The Morgan not
> only looks funny, it sounds funny: when you spin the key it coughs fitfully
> to life, belching and spluttering like the 18-cylinder radial of a P-47
> Thunderbolt.
>
> Arranged into a bewildering array of mismatched FIA-sanctioned classes (the
> Morgan competes against the C5-R), the 18 or so cars in GTR all feel
> different, handle different, sound different, and have different
> personalities. Surprisingly, the front-engined cars are easier to drive
> than the rear-engined cars, but among the Big Guns, only the front-engined
> Prodrive Ferrari 550 Maranello and the theoretically antiquated Viper GTS-R
> are able to keep up with the fleet Saleen S7-R (tricky to drive) and the
> surprisingly muscular Lamborghini Murcielago (a pussycat to drive).
>
> The Corvette C5-R is also a sweetheart to drive, despite its brutal looks.
> The C5-R ver that comes with the game has an overly fussy paintjob, but as
> with most of GTR's cars, you can download alternative skins, including that
> of the famed # 63 Corvette that won its class at Le Mans. The Lister Storm
> that was in the "press" demo along with the Morgan is still there, and a
> blast to drive, if not quite competitive.
>
> My favorite car turned out to be the oddly-named Vertigo, which looks like a
> cross between a Panoz Esperante and the old wooden-chassis Marcos. The
> Vertigo is powered by a 342-hp Alfa V6, but it's really no match against the
> bigger cars in its class. A sweet ride, very smooth, no vices, no drama,
> easy to wheel around the soaring, swooping Nurburgring. And despite the BMW
> Z3M's econo-car looks, it has 380 horsepower under the hood and enormous
> tires and is capable of great big hairy powerslides. The Morgan, with its
> 460-hp BMW V8, is also a hoot to drive (even if it feels like it's still got
> a sliding-pillar suspension with about the same front-end geometry as a 1936
> Volkswagen). It's a great ride; all elbows and a**holes. The only thing
> missing: a silk scarf.
>
> The best thing about GTR is probably the sounds. This is the first sim
> where the cars sound like cars, not a bunch of disparate .wav files
> ham-fistedly juggled by the game engine to produce car-like noises. The
> engines sound like what they are (L4, L6, flat 6, V6, V8, V10, and V12), the
> gear-whine is true-to-life, the on-and-off throttle response is correct, and
> the slicks don't squeal like passenger-car tires, they scuff the way they're
> supposed to (and skitter when pushed hard). Even axle-tramp is modeled. At
> least it's all good from inside the cockpit. The outside "car-by" effects
> are less convincing, and the sound of the AI cars is reminiscent of Peter
> Ustinov's mouth noises in his immortal "Grand Prix of Gibralter" from 40
> years ago.
>
> And the tracks? As Jon Stewart would say, "Mmmm...not so much." The 10
> tracks that ship with the game replicate those on the FIA's GT Championship
> calendar, but other than the modern Spa, they're either emasculated,
> chicane-infested versions of once-great tracks (like Monza), or boring,
> dull, flat modern tracks (like Magny-Cours). A trickle of 3rd-party tracks
> (sure to become a flood) includes several versions of the Nordschleife
> (nobody's got it right yet), a terrible version of Le Mans (somehow running
> endlessly downhill, like an M.C. Escher painting), and two really neat small
> tracks, Sweden's Falkenberg and Germany's Norisring. The most dramatic
> scenery: the 24-hour race at Spa, where you go from day to dusk to night to
> dawn to day (not smooth segues, unfortunately - there are awkward pauses for
> scene changes, as if in an amateur theater production ). Driving at night
> is a new experience...and particularly harrowing.
>
> The cars don't simply drone around these these tracks like marbles in a
> chute. They feel alive. They interact with the surface. The tracks
> themselves are wildly uneven, in some places billiard-table smooth,
> elsewhere washboard bumpy, especially in the braking zones. You can feel
> the suspension working and the tires dancing. The grip changes not merely
> according to the temperature (and weather - rain is modelled), but, as the
> track "rubbers in" and marbles build up, from your first practice laps,
> through qualifying, to the duration of the race itself. "Intense" just
> barely begins to describe it. There's so much going on that's missing from
> other sims: the exhaust headers spit flame on the overrun, brakelights
> flash, clag clatters against the undertray, and you can use an IR
> head-tracker to look around the cockpit.
>
> Until something better comes along, the best test track is Spa, and the
> critical turn is Eau Rouge. Depending on which car you drive, and how it's
> set up, Eau Rouge can either be a dream or a nightmare; as graceful as a
> Patty Wagstaff hammerhead stall or as scary as going over Niagra Falls in a
> kayak. Doug Arnao, a real-world racer (he won an SCCA Solo Championship in
> a wicked tube-frame Porsche) who helped me write "Four-Wheel Drift" (the GPL
> strategy guide), and formerly a denizen of this forum, has tweaked GTR's
> physics model and was responsible for the default setups, which are aces.
> Also in the credits: over 200 FIA-licensed drivers whose input was solicited
> for the driving model, and a couple dozen real-world teams who vetted the
> gameplay.
>
> The gameplay involves competing with up to 56 reasonably well-behaved AI
> cars on the track (the starting grid at Spa goes back up and around La
> Source) or up to 30 cars online. Theoretically. Most of the online races I
> saw had less than 20 cars. I've seen up to 60 servers on the matchmaking
> s/w that comes with the game, and the pings were usually in the 100-125
> range. Most of the servers have been in Germany, obviously, and while
> SimBin seems to have licked the old ISI problem of the game pausing for a
> fraction of a second whenever a new player joins (now you can only join
> during practice, not qualifying or the race itself), there remains a bunch
> of stubborn anomalies in the Net code, steadily being erased by Ian Bell and
> his staff of code monkeys in London. There have been several patches,
> updates and "hot fixes" since the game was first released, including a
> "save-game" feature that works in mid-race, and while not all the problems
> have been solved (or even addressed), I get the distinct feeling that SimBin
> cares about their customers and is working hard to make them happy.
>
> What more could you ask?
>
> Well, they could lose the reviled StarForce protection scheme.
>
> --Steve Smith

I think its OK too.

Only available legally in Germany? Really? Am I braking the law since I
have copy and I'm not in Germany?

> the hotfix 1.23 takes some fps and gives me some stuttering. I´m playing
> with a XP2400, Radeon 9700 and 1 GB ram. I will upgrade to an AMD65 3500
> in a few weeks, when the NForce4 boards and the ATI 800XL are availaible.
> Here in Germany with a regular DSL line, 128k upload, it is possible to
> host for 6-8 people.

I believe the 9700s have some problems with the MoTeC displays - try turning
off the MoTeC display and see if that helps. It's a bit of a shame but the
same thing happened in F1C but wasn't nearly as noticeable. The 9600, 9800,
x800 etc don't have any problems.

Glad to hear the lads at C&D are taking another look at a true sim. All
they've featured of late in terms of PC games has been fluff, though Csere
did admit to using GPL to practice for his stint in a 24 hour race at the
'Ring.

It was a C&D article on GP2 & ICR2 years back (yours?) that got me
interested in sims, in fact. Look forward to reading the GTR article.

SB

PS - you should clue them into RBR while you're at it... ;-)


"Steve Smith" > wrote in message
...
> (Blush!) Thanx, Rod!
>
> "RodP" > wrote in message
> news:MPG.1c5847de5b812f349896d5@news-server...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >
> > > What more could you ask?
> >
> > For you to write more reviews. Great read. Looking forward to the
> > English version of GTR.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rod.
>
>

"Steve Smith" > wrote in message
...
> GTR - A Sim to Believe In
>
> (Part Preview, Part Review)
>
> I'm amazed at the outpouring of negativity surrounding SimBin's "GTR" (for
> the FIA's "GT Racing") by people who haven't played the game...even some
> from people who haven't bothered to play the demo! And among those who
> have
> actually played the game, a lot of the complaints are picayune, like the
> game doesn't strictly follow the FIA's insanely complicated rulebook, or
> the
> track marshals' booths aren't the regulation size.
>

This comes only from those that don't appreciate that they're beta
testers. You'd think they'd be able to work out why it's Germany first, the
world later. Having it now is both a privelege and a burden

However, I really don't like this practice at all. As a competitive
person, you don't want the competition having a sim 4 months or so b4 you
get it. So you're forced to undergo the hassles of being a part of the beta
team with no pay - this should be outlawed. And an unsuspecting German
should be outraged 100 fold to be used like that. I want the cream - if I'm
to be part of developement I want pay - as it is I pay them for my services.
????????????????????


> The truth is, it's a great game. Yes, it has some rough edges, and thus
> far
> it's only available--legally--in Germany (time-frame for U.S. distro: Feb.
> or March), but no, it's neither broken nor a simple mod of EA's Formula 1
> Challenge (altho SimBin has licensed ISI's "Motor 1" physics engine, along
> with all that rococo FIA livery). The bottom line is that GTR comes
> closer
> to an authentic racing experience than anything else that doesn't require
> a
> Nomex driving suit and a 5-point seat harness.
>

Spot on.


> I've driven almost three thousand laps of GTR, both online and off, for an
> assignment from Car and Driver, and as someone who's put six years into
> GPL,
> beta-tested a myriad of PC and console games, and raced both real-world
> cars
> (Trans-Am, SCCA Nationals) and every kind of racing simulation there is
> (beginning with Dave Kaemmer's original Indy 500), I'm here to tell you
> that
> GTR is the best thing to come roaring down the track--for car guys as well
> as computer geeks--since Papyrus' NASCAR Racing 2003...and GTR makes
> NR2003
> seem positively crude by comparison.
>

Yep, no interest in PTA anymore - am DLing GTP as I write this however!
GTP for enduros (see here -
http://soggybottomracersclub.com/SBR...wforum.php?f=9) and
GTR for normal racing is my plan for 2005! Talk about when it rains it
pours. And there's a ton of legitimately promosing stuff on the horizon -
GTR2, rFactor, and more! )

> First of all: the cars. There are a slew of them, from the mundane (a
> gaggle of Porsche 911s...altho a 3rd-party GT1 is lurking in the wings) to
> the exotic (the widely-unknown Gillet Vertigo Streiff, a Belgian bolide
> named after an obscure French F1 driver of the 80s) to the awesome (the
> Corvette C5-R) to the sublime (a trio of Ferraris) to the ridiculous (a
> BMW
> *hatchback*, ferchrissake, and a neo-deco Morgan 8 Aero that looks like
> something out of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow"). The Morgan not
> only looks funny, it sounds funny: when you spin the key it coughs
> fitfully
> to life, belching and spluttering like the 18-cylinder radial of a P-47
> Thunderbolt.
>

Once I saw the Saleen with it's 7.0 Ford V8, interest in all other cars
disappeared! I knew nothing about this car/company 'til this sim.

Check this out - http://www.saleen.com

> And the tracks? As Jon Stewart would say, "Mmmm...not so much." The 10
> tracks that ship with the game replicate those on the FIA's GT
> Championship
> calendar, but other than the modern Spa, they're either emasculated,
> chicane-infested versions of once-great tracks (like Monza), or boring,
> dull, flat modern tracks (like Magny-Cours). A trickle of 3rd-party
> tracks
> (sure to become a flood) includes several versions of the Nordschleife
> (nobody's got it right yet), a terrible version of Le Mans (somehow
> running
> endlessly downhill, like an M.C. Escher painting), and two really neat
> small
> tracks, Sweden's Falkenberg and Germany's Norisring. The most dramatic
> scenery: the 24-hour race at Spa, where you go from day to dusk to night
> to
> dawn to day (not smooth segues, unfortunately - there are awkward pauses
> for
> scene changes, as if in an amateur theater production ). Driving at night
> is a new experience...and particularly harrowing.
>

The 24hr Spa mod is embarrassing imo. That transition caper is a joke -
GET REAL? And what annoys me about it the most is that they didn't just drop
it and fix everything else. The decision to do what they've done rather than
cancel the whole thing was a bad one imo. I should have a good replay
system, perfect multi, perfected dedicated server and all things
league/results orientated implemented by now!


> Until something better comes along, the best test track is Spa, and the
> critical turn is Eau Rouge. Depending on which car you drive, and how
> it's
> set up, Eau Rouge can either be a dream or a nightmare; as graceful as a
> Patty Wagstaff hammerhead stall or as scary as going over Niagra Falls in
> a
> kayak. Doug Arnao, a real-world racer (he won an SCCA Solo Championship
> in
> a wicked tube-frame Porsche) who helped me write "Four-Wheel Drift" (the
> GPL
> strategy guide), and formerly a denizen of this forum, has tweaked GTR's
> physics model and was responsible for the default setups, which are aces.
> Also in the credits: over 200 FIA-licensed drivers whose input was
> solicited
> for the driving model, and a couple dozen real-world teams who vetted the
> gameplay.
>

Yeah, Spa's ok. But I'd say Brno, Anderstorp and Barcelona are easily as
good.

> The gameplay involves competing with up to 56 reasonably well-behaved AI
> cars on the track (the starting grid at Spa goes back up and around La
> Source) or up to 30 cars online. Theoretically. Most of the online races
> I
> saw had less than 20 cars. I've seen up to 60 servers on the matchmaking
> s/w that comes with the game, and the pings were usually in the 100-125
> range. Most of the servers have been in Germany, obviously, and while
> SimBin seems to have licked the old ISI problem of the game pausing for a
> fraction of a second whenever a new player joins (now you can only join
> during practice, not qualifying or the race itself), there remains a bunch
> of stubborn anomalies in the Net code, steadily being erased by Ian Bell
> and
> his staff of code monkeys in London. There have been several patches,
> updates and "hot fixes" since the game was first released, including a
> "save-game" feature that works in mid-race, and while not all the problems
> have been solved (or even addressed), I get the distinct feeling that
> SimBin
> cares about their customers and is working hard to make them happy.
>

I sincerly hope you're right - it's already good with 1.23 but has a bit
to be done (see above) to get to where I'd like it. If they do that by March
I'll be impressed.

> What more could you ask?
>

Plenty!

> Well, they could lose the reviled StarForce protection scheme.
>

And for the unwary, if you have startup problems with the disk checking,
get the latest SF drivers.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:51:11 GMT, Steve Smith wrote:
> (Blush!) Thanx, Rod!
>
> "RodP" > wrote in message

Same here, Steve, it was a great read as usual (heck, I used to have a
copy of "4WD" on my bedside table, although the German translation
sucked and was full of errors ;-)

Looking forward to seeing your Monsterrank, mate ;-)

All the best,

uwe

--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:36:47 +1000, Damien Smith wrote:
> I believe the 9700s have some problems with the MoTeC displays - try turning
> off the MoTeC display and see if that helps. It's a bit of a shame but the
> same thing happened in F1C but wasn't nearly as noticeable. The 9600, 9800,
> x800 etc don't have any problems.

I have system specs similar to the OP (Radeon 9800 Pro though), and
turning off the motec gains me around 10fps, so I usually leve it off
and only turn it on briefly on the straights during races to see how
much time is remaining in races or how fast the quali lap was or
whatever.

Works great, and also you have to focus more on driving (which gear
you're in, for instance).

uwe



--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61