Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



> May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat
> CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
> ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
> running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
> running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason
> Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early
> no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - -
> )
They used to be a bitch to get out.

To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
NO brakes. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What a
difference! When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. They
are designed and built to endure punishment. Try and go to the dealer and
get the model, good luck with that. Watch what happens on one of the police
shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. The actors can't
make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*


--
Tekkie

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes
> to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about
> the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material -
> it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from
> them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.

Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that
there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad.

You were right. I was wrong.

If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an
intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or
not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot
friction coefficients are.

That's it.

Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the
pad itself.

> If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance
> (and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal
> temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third
> application - they are pretty crappy brakes.

Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they?
I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot
friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested).

So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way
of knowing the fade.

It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no
way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands.

I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you
have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their
manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material.

That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis
and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic
marketing is even more meaningless.

> If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in
> a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not
> fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are
> pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only
> last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat
> the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -

All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the
president of the United States.

> No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point.
> The different brake PAD materials are mission specific.
> A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands
> down. Every time.

Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know
from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a
bull**** marketing term.

Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up?
Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions?

Ceramic is complete and total marketing bull****.
The marketing guy told me himself.

(Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.)

> A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or
> when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic
> or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop
> better on a cold stop than a ceramic.

Let's agree to disagree.
You believe in marketing.
I don't.

I believe in specifications.
> No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name
> organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a
> $20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.

Let's agree to disagree.

You think price has some impact on performance.
I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different
branding but the exact same price.

Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of
metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year
warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object.

Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other
than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the
friction.

Everything else is bull****.

> Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn
> good indicator.

Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a ****load of
factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what
Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it.

> Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than
> either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor
> to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.

If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters.
But you have no way of knowing the hardness.
Do you?

> What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular,
> work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.

I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you
think I don't understand.

What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into
something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat.

> When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad
> material into the finish of the rotor..

Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking
under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat.

It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but
the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat.

> The stopping power of the
> brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished
> in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.

The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan
study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come
out of the first few heat cycles.

> How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking
> charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything.

Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes.
I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a
few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do.

I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads.
But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic.

> If you stop hard
> and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake
> cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point -
> UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly
> and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven
> braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.

NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop!
Everyone knows this, so I know you know this.
It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few
thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time.

I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print.
And it only gets worse.

Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching
to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques.

> A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor
> during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer
> under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote
> corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes
> "scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but
> sometimes "real" "warped rotor".

Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality
pad. So it's moot.

It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they
wear glasses or not.

> Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the
> difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping
> distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the
> best and worst in the test is VERY significant.

It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure.
If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant.
If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant.

The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot
pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for
example.

What's 10 foot pounds?
Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have
to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell
you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser.

> What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based
> on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even
that isn't meant for the consumer.

> And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have
> their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.

Knowledge is dangerous.
Logic is dangerous.
Thinking is dangerous.

Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous.
The mechanic doesn't give a **** about you or your brake pads.

All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as
possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't
believe.

I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics
skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a **** about
anything but money.

The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto.

You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree
that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to
buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he
knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't.

Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

> To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
> vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
> NO brakes.

I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car,
where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never
experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it.

But I've never put in less than FF pads either.

That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum.

> I got the police shoes because I was all into it.

What's a "police shoe"?

The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only.

> What a difference!

If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the
police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after
burnishing).

You probably didn't as nobody does.

You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test
apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.

That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint.

> When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful.

What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"?
I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck.

> They are designed and built to endure punishment.

Like any performance vehicle on the road today?

> Try and go to the dealer and
> get the model, good luck with that.

Don't even know what it is.
Is it a souped up police cruiser?

> Watch what happens on one of the police
> shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end.

That's not a good scientific test.

> The actors can't
> make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
> is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
> there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
> were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*

I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)

I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law,
but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is
going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking
the law, the onus is on you.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
> effect of reduced pad contact

That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than
that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test
to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the
adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases.

> May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor.

Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening:
a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or,
b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect.

That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no
logical doubt.

But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it?

> Also heat
> CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
> ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
> running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
> running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry).

Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.

1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead.
2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bull****

I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and
semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the
Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bull**** only they said
it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.

Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec
of iron makes it semi-metallic.

I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line
decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a
simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality
specifications.

Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote:

> Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it
bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that
they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum
of logic.

These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the
good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words
like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and
"semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).

You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction),
and that's fine.

You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.

You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria:
a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits.
b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump)
c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)

I'm not like you.
I like to *understand* that which I buy.

That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one
line you wrote.

I like to make intelligent buying decisions.
You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
> are harsher on rotors and noisier)
> Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
> but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
> Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
> them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
> copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
> leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are
marketing bull**** (he used nicer terms than that).

Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?

> You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
> materials with a magnet.

Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's
a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I
look them up online!

Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a
magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test
the old shoes and pads when I take them off.

Good idea if it works.
Can others concur it works?

> The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
> "boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
> SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
> friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
> Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
> different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which
companies that is, so I don't know what you know.

He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they
fit to all cars.

> You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
> speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
> silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
> performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
> rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
> semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
> reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
> rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
> technology meets your desires.

That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go
and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.

It's just not.

And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine,
for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.

SO I'm ****ed.

> I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
> required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
> to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it
fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is
the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular
retainers.

> Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
> that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right.
Specifications are not bull****.
Marketing spin is bull****.

> The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
> "science" is).

The science is only in the hands of the formulators.
Nobody else has access to that science.

> When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
> came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
> overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
> due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
> damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
> getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices!
They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.

> No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
> ignorance.

I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine.
But I don't.
I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.

> WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
> Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the
immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you
like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF
shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes.

> They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
> that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
> etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
> and OEM REplacement .

In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.

But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which
is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.

His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE
shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE
is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.

He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours,
which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but
luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every*
brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.

> Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
> understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
> field totally outside your reralm.

I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on
specifications. I just hate it.

And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for
brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction
is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.

That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison.
And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.

So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're
blind.

> When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
> from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.

I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car.
They're all the same to me.
The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.

The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.

> And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
> oversimplified that last statement
> A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
> speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
> resistance due to size.

Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers.
But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it.
So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that
it woudl be the case.

You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air,
but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.

My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong.
Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.

Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......

> There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
> sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
> speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.

Yup.
That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500,
> Tekkie+AK4- wrote:
>
>> To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
>> vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
>> NO brakes.
>
>I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car,
>where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never
>experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it.
>
>But I've never put in less than FF pads either.
>
>That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum.
>
>> I got the police shoes because I was all into it.
>
>What's a "police shoe"?
>
>The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only.
The shoes they tested were premium and heavy duty (all of the FF and
FG were "heavy duty" pads.

On Persuit rated vehicles they oftern also have larger rotors and
drums - as well as different tires, and even different RIMS to allow
bwtter brake cooling. Never wondered why cruisers have "dog dish" hub
caps instead of full wheel covers??? To allow the brakes to "breath"
better.
>
>> What a difference!
>
>If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the
>police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after
>burnishing).
>
>You probably didn't as nobody does.
>
>You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test
>apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.
>

I can say without reservation that the "police duty" and severe duty
brakes were MUCH better at high speeds than standard brakes (and
sometimes not nearly as good when cold/low speed) 1 1966 Dodge Polara
Pursuit Special I drove for a short time went like a scalded cat, and
stopped like you had jammed a stick into a hole in the pavement.


>That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint.
>
>> When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful.
>
>What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"?
>I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck.
>
>> They are designed and built to endure punishment.
>
>Like any performance vehicle on the road today?
>
>> Try and go to the dealer and
>> get the model, good luck with that.
>
>Don't even know what it is.
>Is it a souped up police cruiser?

Yes.
>
>> Watch what happens on one of the police
>> shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end.
>
>That's not a good scientific test.
>
>> The actors can't
>> make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
>> is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
>> there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
>> were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*
>
>I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
>Know what they taught me?
>
>a. Defensive driving
>b. Noise pollution is bad
>c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
>ambulances)
>
>I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law,
>but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is
>going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking
>the law, the onus is on you.


Todays persuit special vehicles are often the big ecoboost engine on
fords, and Hemis on Chargers. Often with a "special tune" that raises
the rev limiter setting and reprograms the tranny shift points - as
well as having bigger rads, bigger alternators, honking big sway bars
and super-duty shocks and springs.

On 1/15/18 8:28 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> [ Lot's of stupid repetitive **** deleted ]

On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA,
Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone,
JC Whitney or Pep Boys.

The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable
mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right.

All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I
read on Facebook (or WebMD)."


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
>> effect of reduced pad contact
>
>That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than
>that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test
>to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the
>adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases.
>
>> May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor.
>
>Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening:
>a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or,
>b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect.
>
>That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no
>logical doubt.
>
>But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it?
>
>> Also heat
>> CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
>> ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
>> running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
>> running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry).
>
>Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.
>
>1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead.
>2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bull****

Most definitely is NOT marketing Bull****. It is solid engineering
>
>I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and
>semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the
>Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bull**** only they said
>it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.

You speak mandarin, do you?
There may not be "legal" definitions, but there are industry accepted
definitions - and I've sent you numerous referencesthat spell them out
pretty clearly. Yes, there are "hybrids" that sort of bridge the gap -
but MOST of them are identified as such.
>
>Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec
>of iron makes it semi-metallic.

Most definirely not. There is a small percentage of metal even in
organic pads, and the metal does not need to be iron. And "ceramic"
has nothing to do with "dust".

A ceramic is a vitified clay base which may or may not have metals
also included. A ceramic does not use phenol;ic binders.

Again - READ the stuff I posted for you.
>
>I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line
>decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a
>simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality
>specifications.
>

You are being a paranoid simleton.
>Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:29 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
> Terry Schwartz wrote:
>
>> Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......
>
>I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it
>bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that
>they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum
>of logic.
>
>These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the
>good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words
>like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and
>"semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).
>
>You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction),
>and that's fine.
>
>You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.

And YOU think YOU are smart. (nobody else does - sorry to break your
bubble)
>
>You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria:
>a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits.
>b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump)
>c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)
>

and if you are SMART you buy the type of pad that matches
yourdriving requirements - which for most commuters is a standard
organic pad, for heavy duty use, a semi metallioc, and for high speed
light duty, generally a ceramic.
>I'm not like you.
>I like to *understand* that which I buy.

And yet you most certainly do NOT when it comes to brakes. You are
totally clueless and uneducatable
>
>That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one
>line you wrote.
>
>I like to make intelligent buying decisions.
>You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.
and you seem to be totally incapable of it.