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Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 12th 18, 12:59 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:37:21 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

> Differences in brake materials has have limited immediate consequences.
> What will change is longevity, pad wear, visual effects, rotor wear,
> noise, smell and other irrelevant consequences to the actual need.


With respect to "stopping distance", in the Michigan Police Cruiser study,
they controlled for identical deceleration (thus identical stopping
distance) and measured pedal force.

This is a different test than applying a uniform pedal force and measuring
stopping distance.
<https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf>

I'm not sure how to extrapolate that information to stopping distances.


Ads
  #13  
Old January 13th 18, 09:08 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 16:55:12 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

> Elementary, my dear Watson. There is a HECK of a lot more to brake
> pads than just the coefficient of friction - as Ihave been stating
> time and time again.


I found out the DOT Edge Code for the OE Toyota shoes which is
NBK LN508 FF
which is made by "Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.".

It turns out that you were completely correct where I was hoping this
number would be a "holy grail" where I could use it to better compare two
brake shoes in my hands.

To get a better handle on how to interpret the numbers, I called the main
number at AMECA.ORG in Maryland at 202-898-0145 and spoke to the engineer
in charge of that "AMECA Edge Code Markings" cross reference.

It was a long discussion, the net of which is that this code isn't really
for the consumer.

The engineer said it's kind of like the so-called "serial number" on a
tire, or on a package of baked beans, where if something goes wrong, the
government has a way of tracking down whose fault it is. In addition, he
said that the SAE J866 Chase Test is really a quality metric, and not a
performance metric, even though friction is an outcome of the Chase Test.

The engineer did give me all sorts of personal insight into how to buy
brake pads but overall, he said you can't extrapolate very much real-world
decision-making data from the DOT Edge Code.

Of course, if you miraculously find two pads with the same DOT Edge Code,
then there's a 100% chance that it's the same friction material.

Or, if you find any pads with any of the 19 DOT edge codes that cross
reference to the same AMECA registration number 160426 then they too are
exactly the same friction material.
NAC D9011 FF
NAC LN508 FF
NAC N2009 FF
NBK D9011 FF
NBK LN508 FF <==== this is the OE Toyota brake shoes DOT edge code
NBK N2009 FF
NSA D9011 FF
NSA LN508 FF
NSA N2009 FF
NSC D9011 FF
NSC LN508 FF
NSC N2009 FF
SABC D9011 FF
SABC LN508 FF
SABC N2009 FF
SAC D9011 FF
SAC LN508 FF
SAC N2009 FF
SABC LN508 FF

That's because the AMECA registration number 160426 is for a specific
1-inch square piece of friction material that can be used on any brake pad
or shoe.

But that's really as far as a consumer can go with the edge code, he said.

He knew about all three of the Michigan police studies of EE and FF brake
pads, where those in-depth police cruiser tests also said it's hard to
extrapolate real-world performance from just the EE or FF friction code
they tested.

The AMECA engineer said that there are from 10 to 30 compounds in a brake
friction material, where he opined that Toyota spends enormous energy with
what he called the Tier 1 companies (e.g., Nisshinbo for Toyota) optimizing
the compound for each vehicle; but the engineer said that the aftermarket
suppliers (e.g, Centric, Wagner, Akebono, Axxis, etc.) centralize on about
a half dozen formulas for all their offerings.

In summary, the AMECA Edge Code is only "slightly" useful to a consumer, as
it tells the consumer the most information only if numbers match, but if
they don't match, the only three things it tells the consumer are the
manufacturer, the friction coefficient, and the registration number for the
specific friction material.

BTW, I was tempted to call the Nisshinbo senior principle engineer himself
(Tsuyoshi Kondo, +1-586-997-1000, ) who submitted
the 1-inch squares for our particular friction material on October 31st
2017 for repeat testing, but I didn't have the nerve to call him for more
information, especially after the AMECO engineer told me this information
is mostly for law enforcement and government use, and not really intended
for consumer use.

The one thing the AMECA engineer told me over and over again though, is
that what we'd want for comparative purposes, has been studied and studied
by the "smartest guys on the planet", and nobody can agree because of
conflicting interest.

So he sympathized with our needs.
  #14  
Old January 13th 18, 12:45 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Xeno
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 363
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 13/01/2018 7:08 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 16:55:12 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Elementary, my dear Watson. There is a HECK of a lot more to brake
>> pads than just the coefficient of friction - as Ihave been stating
>> time and time again.

>
> I found out the DOT Edge Code for the OE Toyota shoes which is
> NBK LN508 FF
> which is made by "Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.".
>
> It turns out that you were completely correct where I was hoping this
> number would be a "holy grail" where I could use it to better compare two
> brake shoes in my hands.
>
> To get a better handle on how to interpret the numbers, I called the main
> number at AMECA.ORG in Maryland at 202-898-0145 and spoke to the engineer
> in charge of that "AMECA Edge Code Markings" cross reference.
>
> It was a long discussion, the net of which is that this code isn't really
> for the consumer.
>
> The engineer said it's kind of like the so-called "serial number" on a
> tire, or on a package of baked beans, where if something goes wrong, the
> government has a way of tracking down whose fault it is. In addition, he
> said that the SAE J866 Chase Test is really a quality metric, and not a
> performance metric, even though friction is an outcome of the Chase Test.
>
> The engineer did give me all sorts of personal insight into how to buy
> brake pads but overall, he said you can't extrapolate very much real-world
> decision-making data from the DOT Edge Code.
>
> Of course, if you miraculously find two pads with the same DOT Edge Code,
> then there's a 100% chance that it's the same friction material.
>
> Or, if you find any pads with any of the 19 DOT edge codes that cross
> reference to the same AMECA registration number 160426 then they too are
> exactly the same friction material.
> NAC D9011 FF
> NAC LN508 FF
> NAC N2009 FF
> NBK D9011 FF
> NBK LN508 FF <==== this is the OE Toyota brake shoes DOT edge code
> NBK N2009 FF
> NSA D9011 FF
> NSA LN508 FF
> NSA N2009 FF
> NSC D9011 FF
> NSC LN508 FF
> NSC N2009 FF
> SABC D9011 FF
> SABC LN508 FF
> SABC N2009 FF
> SAC D9011 FF
> SAC LN508 FF
> SAC N2009 FF
> SABC LN508 FF
>
> That's because the AMECA registration number 160426 is for a specific
> 1-inch square piece of friction material that can be used on any brake pad
> or shoe.
>
> But that's really as far as a consumer can go with the edge code, he said.
>
> He knew about all three of the Michigan police studies of EE and FF brake
> pads, where those in-depth police cruiser tests also said it's hard to
> extrapolate real-world performance from just the EE or FF friction code
> they tested.
>
> The AMECA engineer said that there are from 10 to 30 compounds in a brake
> friction material, where he opined that Toyota spends enormous energy with
> what he called the Tier 1 companies (e.g., Nisshinbo for Toyota) optimizing
> the compound for each vehicle; but the engineer said that the aftermarket
> suppliers (e.g, Centric, Wagner, Akebono, Axxis, etc.) centralize on about
> a half dozen formulas for all their offerings.
>
> In summary, the AMECA Edge Code is only "slightly" useful to a consumer, as
> it tells the consumer the most information only if numbers match, but if
> they don't match, the only three things it tells the consumer are the
> manufacturer, the friction coefficient, and the registration number for the
> specific friction material.
>
> BTW, I was tempted to call the Nisshinbo senior principle engineer himself
> (Tsuyoshi Kondo, +1-586-997-1000, ) who submitted
> the 1-inch squares for our particular friction material on October 31st
> 2017 for repeat testing, but I didn't have the nerve to call him for more
> information, especially after the AMECO engineer told me this information
> is mostly for law enforcement and government use, and not really intended
> for consumer use.
>
> The one thing the AMECA engineer told me over and over again though, is
> that what we'd want for comparative purposes, has been studied and studied
> by the "smartest guys on the planet", and nobody can agree because of
> conflicting interest.
>
> So he sympathized with our needs.
>

All the while thinking, "*Who is this nutcase?*".

--

Xeno
  #15  
Old January 13th 18, 06:31 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mad Roger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 22:45:47 +1100,
Xeno wrote:

> All the while thinking, "*Who is this nutcase?*".


Xeno the troll.

How much on-topic technical value have you added to *any* thread.

In your *entire* life?

Zero!

Why?

Xeno the troll can't comprehend the topic.
Nor can Xeno the troll add any technical value.

Why?

Xeno the troll is too stupid to add any value to any topic whatsoever.

Just watch. Xeno the troll proves he's incapable of even *comprehending*
the technical topic by his every response.

Xeno the troll will respond with more non-technical worthless blather.
Just watch.
  #16  
Old January 13th 18, 09:29 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mary-Jane Rottencrotch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 2018-01-11 06:46, Mad Roger wrote:
> I agree that there are *many* factors in the act of slowing down a vehicle
> with brake friction material heating up causing a loss of the energy of
> momentum.
>


Bollox bollox bollox.

Momentum and energy are quite different quantities, if you want to play
properly at being a scientist.
  #17  
Old January 13th 18, 09:39 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Mary-Jane Rottencrotch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 2018-01-11 12:09, Mad Roger wrote:
>
> It seems there *must* be other *major* factors in braking performance,
> other than the friction rating of the pads themselves.
>
> That's a hard logical pill to swallow, for me, which is why I asked here,
> hoping the s.e.r folks can enlighten us as to why.
>


Whats the stupid fixation with the coefficient of friction anyway?

As any fule kno, friction is notionally independent of contact area, and
force due to friction is determined by the coefficient of friction *and
the applied force* so if you want more frictional force, you just need
to press the pedal harder, or have more servo assistance.

Simply ignoring all of the other (engineering) considerations which have
been cited, relating to brake performance in the real world, will not
help you be enlightened about anything. It just makes you look like a
dumb **** trying to be cleverer than your brain permits.
  #18  
Old January 13th 18, 10:34 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 08:08:03 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 16:55:12 -0500,
> Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> Elementary, my dear Watson. There is a HECK of a lot more to brake
>> pads than just the coefficient of friction - as Ihave been stating
>> time and time again.

>
>I found out the DOT Edge Code for the OE Toyota shoes which is
>NBK LN508 FF
>which is made by "Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.".
>
>It turns out that you were completely correct where I was hoping this
>number would be a "holy grail" where I could use it to better compare two
>brake shoes in my hands.
>
>To get a better handle on how to interpret the numbers, I called the main
>number at AMECA.ORG in Maryland at 202-898-0145 and spoke to the engineer
>in charge of that "AMECA Edge Code Markings" cross reference.
>
>It was a long discussion, the net of which is that this code isn't really
>for the consumer.
>
>The engineer said it's kind of like the so-called "serial number" on a
>tire, or on a package of baked beans, where if something goes wrong, the
>government has a way of tracking down whose fault it is. In addition, he
>said that the SAE J866 Chase Test is really a quality metric, and not a
>performance metric, even though friction is an outcome of the Chase Test.
>
>The engineer did give me all sorts of personal insight into how to buy
>brake pads but overall, he said you can't extrapolate very much real-world
>decision-making data from the DOT Edge Code.
>
>Of course, if you miraculously find two pads with the same DOT Edge Code,
>then there's a 100% chance that it's the same friction material.



UNLESS it's counterfeit (admitedly likely less than 1% chance -
until it is - - - -
>
>Or, if you find any pads with any of the 19 DOT edge codes that cross
>reference to the same AMECA registration number 160426 then they too are
>exactly the same friction material.
>NAC D9011 FF
>NAC LN508 FF
>NAC N2009 FF
>NBK D9011 FF
>NBK LN508 FF <==== this is the OE Toyota brake shoes DOT edge code
>NBK N2009 FF
>NSA D9011 FF
>NSA LN508 FF
>NSA N2009 FF
>NSC D9011 FF
>NSC LN508 FF
>NSC N2009 FF
>SABC D9011 FF
>SABC LN508 FF
>SABC N2009 FF
>SAC D9011 FF
>SAC LN508 FF
>SAC N2009 FF
>SABC LN508 FF
>
>That's because the AMECA registration number 160426 is for a specific
>1-inch square piece of friction material that can be used on any brake pad
>or shoe.
>
>But that's really as far as a consumer can go with the edge code, he said.
>
>He knew about all three of the Michigan police studies of EE and FF brake
>pads, where those in-depth police cruiser tests also said it's hard to
>extrapolate real-world performance from just the EE or FF friction code
>they tested.
>
>The AMECA engineer said that there are from 10 to 30 compounds in a brake
>friction material, where he opined that Toyota spends enormous energy with
>what he called the Tier 1 companies (e.g., Nisshinbo for Toyota) optimizing
>the compound for each vehicle; but the engineer said that the aftermarket
>suppliers (e.g, Centric, Wagner, Akebono, Axxis, etc.) centralize on about
>a half dozen formulas for all their offerings.
>
>In summary, the AMECA Edge Code is only "slightly" useful to a consumer, as
>it tells the consumer the most information only if numbers match, but if
>they don't match, the only three things it tells the consumer are the
>manufacturer, the friction coefficient, and the registration number for the
>specific friction material.
>
>BTW, I was tempted to call the Nisshinbo senior principle engineer himself
>(Tsuyoshi Kondo, +1-586-997-1000, ) who submitted
>the 1-inch squares for our particular friction material on October 31st
>2017 for repeat testing, but I didn't have the nerve to call him for more
>information, especially after the AMECO engineer told me this information
>is mostly for law enforcement and government use, and not really intended
>for consumer use.
>
>The one thing the AMECA engineer told me over and over again though, is
>that what we'd want for comparative purposes, has been studied and studied
>by the "smartest guys on the planet", and nobody can agree because of
>conflicting interest.
>
>So he sympathized with our needs.

  #19  
Old January 13th 18, 10:38 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
Clare Snyder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAE J866a Chase Test

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 12:39:51 -0800, Mary-Jane Rottencrotch
> wrote:

>On 2018-01-11 12:09, Mad Roger wrote:
>>
>> It seems there *must* be other *major* factors in braking performance,
>> other than the friction rating of the pads themselves.
>>
>> That's a hard logical pill to swallow, for me, which is why I asked here,
>> hoping the s.e.r folks can enlighten us as to why.
>>

>
>Whats the stupid fixation with the coefficient of friction anyway?
>
>As any fule kno, friction is notionally independent of contact area, and
>force due to friction is determined by the coefficient of friction *and
>the applied force* so if you want more frictional force, you just need
>to press the pedal harder, or have more servo assistance.
>
>Simply ignoring all of the other (engineering) considerations which have
>been cited, relating to brake performance in the real world, will not
>help you be enlightened about anything. It just makes you look like a
>dumb **** trying to be cleverer than your brain permits.



I guess we'll have to give the poor guy a break. I suspect he is a
young graduate engineer who has yet to learn how little he knows.
  #20  
Old January 13th 18, 11:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,rec.autos.tech
The Real Bev[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 570
Default Need help INTERPRETING these test results police cruiser SAEJ866a Chase Test

On 01/13/2018 12:39 PM, Mary-Jane Rottencrotch wrote:
> On 2018-01-11 12:09, Mad Roger wrote:
>>
>> It seems there *must* be other *major* factors in braking performance,
>> other than the friction rating of the pads themselves.
>>
>> That's a hard logical pill to swallow, for me, which is why I asked here,
>> hoping the s.e.r folks can enlighten us as to why.

>
> Whats the stupid fixation with the coefficient of friction anyway?
>
> As any fule kno, friction is notionally independent of contact area, and
> force due to friction is determined by the coefficient of friction *and
> the applied force* so if you want more frictional force, you just need
> to press the pedal harder, or have more servo assistance.


Yu kleerly paid atenshun to Sigismund the Mad Maths Master! Matron
would be pleesed.

--
Cheers, Bev
"What fresh hell is this?" -- Dorothy Parker
 




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