more Saturn complaints (casting flaws cause cracked heads)

On Apr 17, 10:15*am, misterfactLIES > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
> > Steve wrote:
> > > "marx404" > wrote in m...
> > >> more Mr. Fag.....
>
> > >> Please do not feed this troll.
> > He got 100,000 miles out of
>
> Oh boy its Steven M. Scharf! Everyone bow down to his trollness!
>
> Steven M. Scharf's knowledge on cars is just one step above
> Misteracts... IOW it also holds no value.
>
> > However it's still instructive to look at the Alldata TSB lists
> > for competing models of vehicles of recent vintage as part of evaluating
> > which vehicles to buy
>
> Wont do you a damn bit of good. Toyota hides or wont allow most of its
> TSB's to be shown on Alldata. Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to
> reinstall molding or trim and other trivial things. From my research on
> you its clear you're far from qualified to tell people anything about
> cars. It seems you simply regurgitate things you hear with bias.
>
>
>
> > If he wanted a longer lasting vehicle dur hur hur hur- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to
> reinstall molding or trim and other trivial things.

Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
muffler ready to fall off.

Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
and the shield fall off.

Stabilizer links (those cars that have them) sieze up in a year. Dirt
easily gets into the cheap, degrading rubber ball joint cups that are
supposed to protect those ball joints.

If you want to know more about "trivial" car problems- be sure to ask
MisterfactLIES!

"BläBlä" . s!rcre4p.c0m> wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> "Brian" > wrote in message ...
>> > On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:48:02 -0400, "marx404" > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Steve I'm sure that most here already know of the many issues the 1.9L
>> >>engine had, but it's not an epidemic, trust me. The 1.9 in question hasn't
>> >
>> > What issues do the 1.9's have ???? I just bought a 95 SL1 with 146,000 and it runs good.
>> > What can I look forward to in the future ???
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Brian
>>
>> The main issue, as far as I am aware, is the casting flaw that caused oil and coolant to mix either in the oil
>> crankcase or the coolant system. If your SL has over 100,000 miles, chances are this flaw has either been caught and
>> corrected or (more likely) your engine did not suffer from this flaw. There are other, less serious, problems such as
>> wrong plug gapping and fuel pump but, again, your car has either had them and they've been fixed or your car never
>> had
>> them. I would expect that as long as you ensure your SL gets regular maintenance (especially timing chain
>> replacement),
>> the only problems you can expect are those endemic to all older cars.
>
> I dont believe 95' SOHC engines were effected by casting flaws. Only 3-4
> years were effected. This is something that Misterhidethefacts wont ever
> mention...
That's what Saturn *admitted* to and played in the press. According to my (since departed) Saturn dealer service
manager, the problem was believed to have been corrected in the middle of the year *following* the upper range of
publicized years. My 1999 SL had the symptoms and although they didn't admit to it being caused by a casting flaw and
despite my vehicle being beyond the warrantee period, Saturn Division covered the parts costs (more than 1/2 of the
total on a retail price basis).

> wrote in message ...
On Apr 17, 10:15 am, misterfactLIES > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
> > Steve wrote:
> > > "marx404" > wrote in m...
> > >> more Mr. Fag.....
>
> > >> Please do not feed this troll.
> > He got 100,000 miles out of
>
> Oh boy its Steven M. Scharf! Everyone bow down to his trollness!
>
> Steven M. Scharf's knowledge on cars is just one step above
> Misteracts... IOW it also holds no value.
>
> > However it's still instructive to look at the Alldata TSB lists
> > for competing models of vehicles of recent vintage as part of evaluating
> > which vehicles to buy
>
> Wont do you a damn bit of good. Toyota hides or wont allow most of its
> TSB's to be shown on Alldata. Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to
> reinstall molding or trim and other trivial things. From my research on
> you its clear you're far from qualified to tell people anything about
> cars. It seems you simply regurgitate things you hear with bias.
>
>
>
> > If he wanted a longer lasting vehicle dur hur hur hur- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to
> reinstall molding or trim and other trivial things.

Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
muffler ready to fall off.
<snip>
Except mine.

> wrote in message
...

> Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
> muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
> small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
> muffler ready to fall off.

IMHE this is correct.

> Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
> with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
> and the shield fall off.

I have not noticed this problem, but have not checked this location for
corrosion.

I have yet to have any vehicle that did not have some problem.

I have a 1996 SOHC that was from the series with several head casting flaw
problems but have not as yet experienced any problem and can only think that
I got lucky. I learned of the possible problem just as the regular warranty
was ending and had an oil and coolant lab analysis done to check for
coolant/oil mixing both as the regular warranty and the extended head
replacement period were ending but found no problem. I now have almost 200k
miles on the engine with no serious problems. I do not expect any
manufacturer to do a 100% replacement on a component that has lasted for a
substantial portion of its expected service life. Saturn did offer a
generous extended warranty to cover this head casting flaw. At this point I
would not expect any help from Saturn if I have a head problem nor would I
take it to a Saturn dealer if a repair was required.

Good luck, but get over it.

> wrote in message
...

> The fact is: Saturn corporation has a long history of hiding EPIDEMIC
> defects. They withold defect information as long as they can so they
> can get as many customers as they can to drive their car over the
> warranty period.

> Not only that- you should not expect every Saturn dealer and repair
> facility to warn you of epidemic defects which they have seen from
> other owners who brought their car into their shop. Some will warn
> you.

Just like (and no worse than) every other manufacturer IMHE. There are
unflattering words that describe people who trust car dealers.

Good luck, but get over it.

Private wrote:

> Just like (and no worse than) every other manufacturer IMHE. There are
> unflattering words that describe people who trust car dealers.

It's not really the dealer's fault. The dealer isn't going to replace an
engine head at their own expense. In fact the dealers often admit to
customers that there are problems that the manufacturer knows about but
won't address.

There is a big difference in how manufacturer's react to manufacturing
problems that affect the vehicle to an extent that it becomes unusable,
or even to problems that result from lack of clear maintenance schedules.

It was amazing to see someone from Toyota's corporate office posting
their response to the sludge problem on Usenet!
"http://tinyurl.com/6o4fkr". Toyota is very concerned about their image
and getting bad press. Owner loyalty is extremely important to them
because they're looking long term, and a little money spent to bolster
their image is money well spent.

What's so sad about the casting flaw issue is that it would have cost
them very little extra to just cover everyone regardless of time or
mileage. Most of those other vehicles would either not have the problem
anyway, or would be scrapped for unrelated problems before the problem
occurred. The few extra repairs would have engendered a lot of owner
loyalty.

> Good luck, but get over it.

Yes, that's good advice, but I think he has the mentality of not only
never getting over being wronged, but letting the whole world know about
it as well.

In article >, " > wrote:

>Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
>muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
>small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
>muffler ready to fall off.

I own *two* Saturns, and the muffler isn't "ready to fall off" of either one.
>
>Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
>with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
>and the shield fall off.

Dissimilar-metals corrosion between aluminum and steel corrodes the *steel*,
not the aluminum. If you're going to make up stories, at least try to make
them a tiny bit convincing. When your tall tales contradict scientific fact,
you expose yourself as a liar and a fool.
>
>Stabilizer links (those cars that have them) sieze up in a year. Dirt
>easily gets into the cheap, degrading rubber ball joint cups that are
>supposed to protect those ball joints.

Not a problem on *my* Saturns. Wonder why you have so much trouble with yours?

"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> " > wrote:
>
>>Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
>>with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
>>and the shield fall off.
>
> Dissimilar-metals corrosion between aluminum and steel corrodes the
> *steel*,
> not the aluminum. If you're going to make up stories, at least try to make
> them a tiny bit convincing. When your tall tales contradict scientific
> fact,
> you expose yourself as a liar and a fool.

I have seen severe corrosion of aluminum caused by steel bolts touching
aluminum combined with lots of road salt. You may be correct regarding the
scientific theory of steel corroding electrically but IMHE the aluminum is
usually consumed totally long before the steel. Good practice uses a thin
plastic washer or sheet under a steel washer under the bolt head and nut.

Just my .02

"SMS" > wrote in message
t...
> Private wrote:
>
>> Just like (and no worse than) every other manufacturer IMHE. There are
>> unflattering words that describe people who trust car dealers.
>
> It's not really the dealer's fault. The dealer isn't going to replace an
> engine head at their own expense. In fact the dealers often admit to
> customers that there are problems that the manufacturer knows about but
> won't address.

You are correct, I was too specific, I should have said 'who trust the car
industry.'

> There is a big difference in how manufacturer's react to manufacturing
> problems that affect the vehicle to an extent that it becomes unusable, or
> even to problems that result from lack of clear maintenance schedules.
>
> It was amazing to see someone from Toyota's corporate office posting their
> response to the sludge problem on Usenet! "http://tinyurl.com/6o4fkr".
> Toyota is very concerned about their image and getting bad press. Owner
> loyalty is extremely important to them because they're looking long term,
> and a little money spent to bolster their image is money well spent.

I agree that there is sometimes great variability of response to customer
concerns. It often seems to depend on current corporate profitability and
on product margin.

> What's so sad about the casting flaw issue is that it would have cost them
> very little extra to just cover everyone regardless of time or mileage.
> Most of those other vehicles would either not have the problem anyway, or
> would be scrapped for unrelated problems before the problem occurred. The
> few extra repairs would have engendered a lot of owner loyalty.

I agree, especially regarding the few additional failures occuring after
expiry of the extended waranty, but the bean counters and lawyers are in
charge of company policy and we know they tend to be mean and short sighted
in these matters. They probably saw no immediate gain in providing warranty
coverage to mainly second (or third) owners who were not good prospects to
purchase new models soon. I am sure that most of these people would have
been happy to receive a partial warranty in the form of highly discounted
new or rebuilt exchange head assembies which they could instal themselves
and would not result in Saturn paying the dealers a large amount for
warranty installation.

Most corporations talk customer loyalty and repeat business but few actually
invest the effort to develop it. I can only assume that the GM market
research has shown that 'you can't please all the people all the time' and
am sure that there is a point of diminishing returns. Toyota is a growing
company that is developing market share while GM is a company with both
declining market share and vision. How could Saturn discontinue the
excelent fuel efficient S series (particularly the SW1 model) in favor of
larger SUVs and niche market sports cars instead of developing an even more
fuel efficient turbo diesel? They did this at a time when 'peak oil' and
rising world oil demand and prices were quite obvious. Toyota has
manufactured the similar Corrola model for many many years and IIRC it
continues to sell well with much customer loyalty and repeat purchasers. I
would have purchased a new replacement for my SW1 several years ago but they
had discontinued the SOHC engine and Saturn (or GM) no longer manufacture
any mini SW model that fits my needs or interest.

> > Good luck, but get over it.
>
> Yes, that's good advice, but I think he has the mentality of not only
> never getting over being wronged, but letting the whole world know about
> it as well.

Private wrote:

> I agree, especially regarding the few additional failures occuring after
> expiry of the extended waranty, but the bean counters and lawyers are in
> charge of company policy and we know they tend to be mean and short sighted
> in these matters. They probably saw no immediate gain in providing warranty
> coverage to mainly second (or third) owners who were not good prospects to
> purchase new models soon. I am sure that most of these people would have
> been happy to receive a partial warranty in the form of highly discounted
> new or rebuilt exchange head assembies which they could instal themselves
> and would not result in Saturn paying the dealers a large amount for
> warranty installation.

Yes, they could have at least covered the original owner for the full
amount and subsequent owners for a partial amount. Back when VW had 10
year warranties on engine and power train it transferred to subsequent
owners at only five years.

> How could Saturn discontinue the
> excelent fuel efficient S series (particularly the SW1 model) in favor of
> larger SUVs and niche market sports cars instead of developing an even more
> fuel efficient turbo diesel?

Because the S series was never profitable, and doing new versions of it
only for Saturn and no other divisions would have been hugely expensive.
No mass market, low cost vehicle can sell in quantities as small as
Saturn sold the S series and ever recoup the development and tooling
costs. The S series had fallen way behind the competition in areas such
as crash safety. They could have done a new version as a joint effort
with GM and still called it the SL, SC, SW, whatever, but there were too
many negative connotations to previous buyers that had experienced
reliability issues.

> rising world oil demand and prices were quite obvious. Toyota has
> manufactured the similar Corrola model for many many years and IIRC it
> continues to sell well with much customer loyalty and repeat purchasers.

Well using the Corolla name anyway. The Corolla of today bears little
resemblance to the original Corolla.

> would have purchased a new replacement for my SW1 several years ago but they
> had discontinued the SOHC engine and Saturn (or GM) no longer manufacture
> any mini SW model that fits my needs or interest.

Well Toyota doesn't sell the Corolla wagon anymore either. They want
people to buy SUVs. But I guess the Scion XB qualifies as a wagon, as
does the Matrix sort of.