more Saturn complaints (casting flaws cause cracked heads)

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
>> Private wrote:

>> How could Saturn discontinue the excelent fuel efficient S series
>> (particularly the SW1 model) in favor of larger SUVs and niche market
>> sports cars instead of developing an even more fuel efficient turbo
>> diesel?
>
> Because the S series was never profitable, and doing new versions of it
> only for Saturn and no other divisions would have been hugely expensive.
> No mass market, low cost vehicle can sell in quantities as small as Saturn
> sold the S series and ever recoup the development and tooling costs. The S
> series had fallen way behind the competition in areas such as crash
> safety. They could have done a new version as a joint effort with GM and
> still called it the SL, SC, SW, whatever, but there were too many negative
> connotations to previous buyers that had experienced reliability issues.
>
>> rising world oil demand and prices were quite obvious.
>
>> I would have purchased a new replacement for my SW1 several years ago but
>> they had discontinued the SOHC engine and Saturn (or GM) no longer
>> manufacture any mini SW model that fits my needs or interest.
>
> Well Toyota doesn't sell the Corolla wagon anymore either. They want
> people to buy SUVs. But I guess the Scion XB qualifies as a wagon, as does
> the Matrix sort of.

We can debate why the S series was not more profitable, but I suspect that
it had more to do with management and marketing than engineering, or cost
effectiveness.

I have been very satisfied with the usability, utility, economy and
reliability of the SW1, I will not be replacing it with any SUV. The VW
Golf and Jetta look very good but the rising Euro will make them pricey. I
will buy what I want to buy and not just what a seller has or wishes to sell
me. Oil hit close to $120/barrel today and I suspect we will not see <$100
again, I am glad I do not need to sell (or buy fuel for) a Hummer or pickup
truck.

I am reminded of the difference between marketing and selling, marketing is
having what the customer wants and selling is attempting to do business with
what you have.

Saturn (and GM) no longer has what I want to buy, which is an economical,
small, light and fuel efficient mini-wagon.

Just my .02, YMand needsMV

Private wrote:
\
> We can debate why the S series was not more profitable, but I suspect that
> it had more to do with management and marketing than engineering, or cost
> effectiveness.

At one point Saturn claimed an "operating profit" which means that if
they ignored the several hundred million dollars in development and
start-up costs they were making a profit. Clearly they couldn't keep
doing this over and over again, since GM wouldn't pay for such nonsense.
It was always amusing to see people complaining that GM wasn't allowing
Saturn to do its own designs anymore, as if GM was supposed to pour cash
into the division forever with no hope of ever seeing a monetary return
on the investment.

One reason Toyota is so profitable is that they build massive numbers of
each design in multiple factories all over the world so they amortize
the development costs. These days if you can't sell a few million of
each design then you don't do the design. That's why GM decided that
Saturn would no longer do designs solely for Saturn.

In article >, "Private" > wrote:

>I have seen severe corrosion of aluminum caused by steel bolts touching
>aluminum combined with lots of road salt. You may be correct regarding the
>scientific theory of steel corroding electrically but IMHE the aluminum is
>usually consumed totally long before the steel. Good practice uses a thin
>plastic washer or sheet under a steel washer under the bolt head and nut.

It's not the steel causing the corrosion of the aluminum, it's the salt.
Specifically the chlorine in the salt.

"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Private" > wrote:
>
>>I have seen severe corrosion of aluminum caused by steel bolts touching
>>aluminum combined with lots of road salt. You may be correct regarding
>>the
>>scientific theory of steel corroding electrically but IMHE the aluminum is
>>usually consumed totally long before the steel. Good practice uses a thin
>>plastic washer or sheet under a steel washer under the bolt head and nut.
>
> It's not the steel causing the corrosion of the aluminum, it's the salt.
> Specifically the chlorine in the salt.


I readily admit that I am not a corrosion engineer, but to my uneducated
experience this seems to be a classic case of galvanic corrosion,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
occurring between two dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum) in the presence
of an electrolyte (road salt + water).
Since aluminum is lower than steel in the galvanic series,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
the aluminum will act as the anode and cause aluminum ions to migrate to the
steel which is acting as the cathode.

This galvanic corrosion is in addition to the normal corrosion that would be
experienced by the aluminum caused by exposure to the road salt + water
solution, (which may also have a galvanic component depending on any other
elements present in the solution).

I note that zinc (and cadmium) is lower than aluminum (and steel) in the
galvanic series so zinc plated galvanized bolts would seem to cause the
anode/cathode relationship to reverse, at least until the galvanic corrosion
of the zinc anode exposes the steel and reverses the anode/cathode to again
favor corrosion to occur in the aluminum, I suspect that this process gets
quite confused and contributes to accelerated corrosion of all the metals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanising

Just MHU, if I am misunderstanding this process, please enlighten me.

In article >, "Private" > wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" > wrote in message
.. .
>> In article >, "Private" > wrote:
>>
>>>I have seen severe corrosion of aluminum caused by steel bolts touching
>>>aluminum combined with lots of road salt. You may be correct regarding
>>>the
>>>scientific theory of steel corroding electrically but IMHE the aluminum is
>>>usually consumed totally long before the steel. Good practice uses a thin
>>>plastic washer or sheet under a steel washer under the bolt head and nut.
>>
>> It's not the steel causing the corrosion of the aluminum, it's the salt.
>> Specifically the chlorine in the salt.
>
>
>I readily admit that I am not a corrosion engineer, but to my uneducated
>experience this seems to be a classic case of galvanic corrosion,
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
>occurring between two dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum) in the presence
>of an electrolyte (road salt + water).
>Since aluminum is lower than steel in the galvanic series,
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
>the aluminum will act as the anode and cause aluminum ions to migrate to the
>steel which is acting as the cathode.
>
>This galvanic corrosion is in addition to the normal corrosion that would be
>experienced by the aluminum caused by exposure to the road salt + water
>solution, (which may also have a galvanic component depending on any other
>elements present in the solution).
>
>I note that zinc (and cadmium) is lower than aluminum (and steel) in the
>galvanic series so zinc plated galvanized bolts would seem to cause the
>anode/cathode relationship to reverse, at least until the galvanic corrosion
>of the zinc anode exposes the steel and reverses the anode/cathode to again
>favor corrosion to occur in the aluminum, I suspect that this process gets
>quite confused and contributes to accelerated corrosion of all the metals.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanising
>
>Just MHU, if I am misunderstanding this process, please enlighten me.
>

When aluminum and carbon steel are fastened together and gotten wet *without*
salt, it's the steel that corrodes, not the aluminum.

Salt will cause damn near anything to corrode.

On Apr 22, 7:36*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article >, " > wrote:
>
> >Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
> >muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
> >small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
> >muffler ready to fall off.
>
> I own *two* Saturns, and the muffler isn't "ready to fall off" of either one.
>
>
>
> >Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
> >with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
> >and the shield fall off.
>
> Dissimilar-metals corrosion between aluminum and steel corrodes the *steel*,
> not the aluminum. If you're going to make up stories, at least try to make
> them a tiny bit convincing. When your tall tales contradict scientific fact,
> you expose yourself as a liar and a fool.
>
> Mr fabricator:
>
WRONG! The steel heads on the bolts on my car remained intact. The
hole in the aluminum shields rusted out to the point where they became
bigger than the bolt.

In article >, " > wrote:
>On Apr 22, 7:36=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article .=
>com>, " > wrote:
>>
>> >Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
>> >muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
>> >small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
>> >muffler ready to fall off.
>>
>> I own *two* Saturns, and the muffler isn't "ready to fall off" of either o=
>ne.
>>
>>
>>
>> >Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
>> >with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
>> >and the shield fall off.
>>
>> Dissimilar-metals corrosion between aluminum and steel corrodes the *steel=
>*,
>> not the aluminum. If you're going to make up stories, at least try to make=
>
>> them a tiny bit convincing. When your tall tales contradict scientific fac=
>t,
>> you expose yourself as a liar and a fool.
>>
>> Mr fabricator:
>>
> WRONG! The steel heads on the bolts on my car remained intact. The
>hole in the aluminum shields rusted out to the point where they became
>bigger than the bolt.

Post a photo.

On Apr 12, 12:09*pm, " >
wrote:
> Saturn (GM) STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE
>
> When we at GM discover an epidemic costly flaw in our cars (like
> casting flaws in our cylinder heads that will cause the head to
> eventually CRACK); and before we become aware of the problem, tens of
> thousands of cars with the flaw have gone off the assembly line to
> dealers and customers
>
> We withold that information (sending out a service notice) for as
> long
> as we can- so as to get as many of those cars affected, OVER the
> warranty period. That way, we are not liable to cover the cost of the
> repair or replacement and we are able to cut our loses!
>
> Also: If a new car customer who has been taking his car to the dealer
> for regular scheduled maintainance, CHANGES ADDRESS, and the dealer
> fails to notify the company of the new address and because of this
> dealer failure- we send out a service notice to the old address and
> thus the notice never reaches the customer:
>
> When the service notice is returned to us as "undeliverable"; we will
> NOT make any attempt to reach the customer at his new address and
> notify him of the service notice. We are not liable for our dealer's
> failure nor will we take any action against our dealer for this
> failure
> in an attempt to compensate the customer,should he have been unaware
> of
> the notice and suffers a costly repair bill after his warranty has
> run
> out!
>
> Anyone who doubts the above policy can contact (among many others):
> Grand Rapids (Michigan) Saturn.
>
> (That is; if anyone there admits his knowledge of and has the COURAGE
> to verify the above policy)
> signed.
>
> Michael Cohrman
>
>
> The above policy is known by many but I have never seen it posted
> anywhere. If you want to verify or deny the above policy from your
> own
> experience- please do!
>
> Want specific examples of GM witholding costly information on their
> cars? Contact:
>
> Patricia of Bath ME (9/15/03):
> Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
> position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
> (whichever
> came first) I'm out of luck. Of course the local dealer will fix it
> for
> $1,800. I own a 1994 Saturn SW1 with 94,502 miles. The service
> bullentin came out in 1999. I believe that they knew it to be a
> defect
> in the parts they used and it should be fixed no matter what the age
> of
> the car.
>
> Of couse they would like the public to think that after their
> timeframe
> the car will never have the problem or by magic it will repair
> itself.
> If the only humans worked this way after 6 years all birth defects
> would just disappear. What a wonderful world it would be. All I have
> to
> say is -- dream on, Saturn. I can't wait to get the car fixed and
> trade
> it in for another car.
>
> * * GM standard operating proceedure *[ To: misterfact *| *Post
> 296013896, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 2)
>
> Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
> position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
> (whichever came first) I'm out of luck.
>
> (think I'm going to buy a Toyota pickup. I've always been a Dodge man,
> and I'd love to have a new Cummins, but I think I'm done with American
> auto companies.
>
> I think I want a Toyota or a Nissan, club cab, full size. Something my
> dogs can ride in with me.
>
> .
>
> misterfact
> (nonconformist)
>
> Saturn recalls
>
> http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...turn/l-series/...
>
> misterfact
> (nonconformist)
> 01/18/08 09:54 AM
> * GM standard operating proceedure *[ To: Jhoffa_ *| *Post
> 296013960, reply to 296013929 ] (Sco 1)
>
> Saturn has made over 100,000 cars with casting flaws in their cylinder
> heads. The flaw causes the head to crack- usually after the warranty
> expires.
>
> This figure was given to me by a Saturn "insider".
>
> http://www.carreview.com/mfr/saturn/..._15473_1531crx...
>
> Summary:
> We were very happy with our Saturn until the warranty ran out. As far
> as I am concerned these lemons have built in flaws.With only 56000
> miles and a dedicated maintanance regime we now face a $4000.00 repair
> cost for replacing something on just about everything. Speed sensor,
> transmission valve and a computer overhaul. We thought we had made a
> good choice when we bought this car 6 years ago. My wife loved it. We
> were treated great by all the staff at Saturn and it seemed to us that
> we were getting a fine automobile......Then the warranty ran out and
> so did all the friendlyness. We now face a bill almost 1/4 the size of
> what we paid for it originaly. We are going to do the minimum to get
> it running and dump this turkey. We have started looking around for a
> minivan and believe me, it won't be a Saturn. They should be ashamed
> of themselves for foisting an inferior product on trusting people.
> (But I doubt they are.)
>
> Weaknesses:
> Constant problems with the air conditioning.I bet you've read that one
> before. Things start falling apart after the warranty expires. too
> many built in flaws in my opinion.
>
> Would you like to Comment?
> Join CarReview for a free account, or Login if you are already a
> member.
>
> misterfact
> (maverick)
> 04/12/08 09:53 AM
> * GM standard operating proceedure *[ To: misterfact *| *Post
> 296172871, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 1)
>
> Dear Mister Fact;
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Hello,
>
> > I also am very frustrated with the integrity of the
> > saturn car dealership here in Holland, Michigan. I
> > have been on top of every check-up in the 43,000
> > miles of my car's life. I own a 2003 Saturn Ion. On
> > January 28, I took my car in because my coolant
> > light was on. They couldn't find a leak doing a
> > pressure test - so then they topped off my coolant
> > and told me I was okay to drive it. 4 weeks later,
> > my engine is overheating and upon inspection, they
> > let me know that my cylinder head is cracked and my
> > engine needs to be replaced. 43,000 miles!! I did
> > everything to the "t" as far as car upkeep: oil
> > changes, 30,000k tune up, tire rotation, fluid
> > check, etc... and the Saturn of Holland, Michigan
> > aren't owning up to their role in this mess nor am I
> > getting anywhere with the customer service rep. at
> > Saturn Inc.
> > Do you have any advice/tips to pursue this further
> > or get someone to own up to the poor quality of
> > service and the horrible products they are making?
>
> > They told me that I probably had a 'lemon' - that
> > one car that was made on a Friday afternoon before
> > the weekend ---- and the engine was probably faulty
> > from the start.
>
> > Thanks in advance for getting back to me about this.
>
> > -Christen
>
> > --
> > Complaints.com - consumers in control- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yep. I work for Saturn. I hate to see people lie about a great
company! Saturn makes great cars.I'de love to beat some sense into
misterfact (Mike Korman), but since I'm too stupid and lazy to refute
anything he says with facts; and I'm too cowardly to go over to his
house and re-arrange his brain-I decided to go to a lot of expence and
waste my precious time to find out who he is, where he lives and his
phone number-then plaster it all over the internet..

That way someone else might go over to his house and do the job for
me, or else call him up in the middle of the night.

I guess I could sue him for defaming the company, but that means
I'de have to face him in court and document all his lies, which again,
I don't know how to do or am to lazy to do. Then too, he'd get MY name
and address!

misterfactLIES

On Apr 12, 12:09*pm, " >
wrote:
> Saturn (GM) STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE
>
> When we at GM discover an epidemic costly flaw in our cars (like
> casting flaws in our cylinder heads that will cause the head to
> eventually CRACK); and before we become aware of the problem, tens of
> thousands of cars with the flaw have gone off the assembly line to
> dealers and customers
>
> We withold that information (sending out a service notice) for as
> long
> as we can- so as to get as many of those cars affected, OVER the
> warranty period. That way, we are not liable to cover the cost of the
> repair or replacement and we are able to cut our loses!
>
> Also: If a new car customer who has been taking his car to the dealer
> for regular scheduled maintainance, CHANGES ADDRESS, and the dealer
> fails to notify the company of the new address and because of this
> dealer failure- we send out a service notice to the old address and
> thus the notice never reaches the customer:
>
> When the service notice is returned to us as "undeliverable"; we will
> NOT make any attempt to reach the customer at his new address and
> notify him of the service notice. We are not liable for our dealer's
> failure nor will we take any action against our dealer for this
> failure
> in an attempt to compensate the customer,should he have been unaware
> of
> the notice and suffers a costly repair bill after his warranty has
> run
> out!
>
> Anyone who doubts the above policy can contact (among many others):
> Grand Rapids (Michigan) Saturn.
>
> (That is; if anyone there admits his knowledge of and has the COURAGE
> to verify the above policy)
> signed.
>
> Michael Cohrman
>
>
> The above policy is known by many but I have never seen it posted
> anywhere. If you want to verify or deny the above policy from your
> own
> experience- please do!
>
> Want specific examples of GM witholding costly information on their
> cars? Contact:
>
> Patricia of Bath ME (9/15/03):
> Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
> position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
> (whichever
> came first) I'm out of luck. Of course the local dealer will fix it
> for
> $1,800. I own a 1994 Saturn SW1 with 94,502 miles. The service
> bullentin came out in 1999. I believe that they knew it to be a
> defect
> in the parts they used and it should be fixed no matter what the age
> of
> the car.
>
> Of couse they would like the public to think that after their
> timeframe
> the car will never have the problem or by magic it will repair
> itself.
> If the only humans worked this way after 6 years all birth defects
> would just disappear. What a wonderful world it would be. All I have
> to
> say is -- dream on, Saturn. I can't wait to get the car fixed and
> trade
> it in for another car.
>
> * * GM standard operating proceedure *[ To: misterfact *| *Post
> 296013896, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 2)
>
> Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
> position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
> (whichever came first) I'm out of luck.
>
> (think I'm going to buy a Toyota pickup. I've always been a Dodge man,
> and I'd love to have a new Cummins, but I think I'm done with American
> auto companies.
>
> I think I want a Toyota or a Nissan, club cab, full size. Something my
> dogs can ride in with me.
>
> .
>
> misterfact
> (nonconformist)
>
> Saturn recalls
>
> http://www.internetautoguide.com/aut...turn/l-series/...
>
> misterfact
> (nonconformist)
> 01/18/08 09:54 AM
> * GM standard operating proceedure *[ To: Jhoffa_ *| *Post
> 296013960, reply to 296013929 ] (Sco 1)
>
> Saturn has made over 100,000 cars with casting flaws in their cylinder
> heads. The flaw causes the head to crack- usually after the warranty
> expires.
>
> This figure was given to me by a Saturn "insider".
>
> http://www.carreview.com/mfr/saturn/..._15473_1531crx...
>
> Summary:
> We were very happy with our Saturn until the warranty ran out. As far
> as I am concerned these lemons have built in flaws.With only 56000
> miles and a dedicated maintanance regime we now face a $4000.00 repair
> cost for replacing something on just about everything. Speed sensor,
> transmission valve and a computer overhaul. We thought we had made a
> good choice when we bought this car 6 years ago. My wife loved it. We
> were treated great by all the staff at Saturn and it seemed to us that
> we were getting a fine automobile......Then the warranty ran out and
> so did all the friendlyness. We now face a bill almost 1/4 the size of
> what we paid for it originaly. We are going to do the minimum to get
> it running and dump this turkey. We have started looking around for a
> minivan and believe me, it won't be a Saturn. They should be ashamed
> of themselves for foisting an inferior product on trusting people.
> (But I doubt they are.)
>
> Weaknesses:
> Constant problems with the air conditioning.I bet you've read that one
> before. Things start falling apart after the warranty expires. too
> many built in flaws in my opinion.
>
> Would you like to Comment?
> Join CarReview for a free account, or Login if you are already a
> member.
>
> misterfact
> (maverick)
> 04/12/08 09:53 AM
> * GM standard operating proceedure *[ To: misterfact *| *Post
> 296172871, reply to 296013865 ] (Sco 1)
>
> Dear Mister Fact;
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Hello,
>
> > I also am very frustrated with the integrity of the
> > saturn car dealership here in Holland, Michigan. I
> > have been on top of every check-up in the 43,000
> > miles of my car's life. I own a 2003 Saturn Ion. On
> > January 28, I took my car in because my coolant
> > light was on. They couldn't find a leak doing a
> > pressure test - so then they topped off my coolant
> > and told me I was okay to drive it. 4 weeks later,
> > my engine is overheating and upon inspection, they
> > let me know that my cylinder head is cracked and my
> > engine needs to be replaced. 43,000 miles!! I did
> > everything to the "t" as far as car upkeep: oil
> > changes, 30,000k tune up, tire rotation, fluid
> > check, etc... and the Saturn of Holland, Michigan
> > aren't owning up to their role in this mess nor am I
> > getting anywhere with the customer service rep. at
> > Saturn Inc.
> > Do you have any advice/tips to pursue this further
> > or get someone to own up to the poor quality of
> > service and the horrible products they are making?
>
> > They told me that I probably had a 'lemon' - that
> > one car that was made on a Friday afternoon before
> > the weekend ---- and the engine was probably faulty
> > from the start.
>
> > Thanks in advance for getting back to me about this.
>
> > -Christen
>
> > --
> > Complaints.com - consumers in control- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

misterfactLIES...

.I work for Saturn. I hate to see people lie about a great company!
Saturn makes great cars.I'de love to beat some sense into misterfact
(Mike Korman), but since I'm too stupid and lazy to refute anything he
says with facts; and I'm too cowardly to go over to his house and re-
arrange his brain-I decided to go to a lot of expense and waste my
precious time to find out who he is, where he lives and his phone
number-then plaster it all over the internet..



That way someone else might go over to his house and do the job for
me, or else call him up in the middle of the night.



I guess I could sue him for defaming the company, but that means
I'de have to face him in court and document all his lies, which again,
I don't know how to do or am to lazy to do. Then too, he'd get my name
and address!


Yep.