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  #21  
Old September 1st 11, 04:51 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

Pat Dotson:
> If Mario's recommended settings resulted in only the largest spike in
> forces to be clipped, I would find that perfectly reasonable. If the
> addition of damper results in a more realistic feel for him, I think
> that's great. I usually use some level of damping myself.
>
> I see two problems here;
>
>
> One, Mario describes clipping as some sort of extremely strong shock
> delivered through the wheel. He says this: "Clipping isn't just a
> constant force." But it is. If the wheel is clipping, it is
> outputting the constant maximum force allowed by the wheel's FFB
> settings.Everyone else in the world understands this, but Mario seems
> to be trying to redefine the use of the word.
>
>
> Secondly, his recommended 139/139/139 settings combined with any more
> than a 1 or 2 in-game FFB strength results in constant FFB clipping,
> i.e. max force output of the FFB motors. In fact, with a 139 overall
> strength, even at a 1 or 2 in-game setting, the usable cornering
> aligning torque feedback is being "squashed" into the upper range of
> force level, such that it might as well be clipped. With his original
> recommendation of 40 on the old 100 scale, or his new recommendation
> of 8 on the 40 scale, the only time the wheel will not be delivering
> max force output will be when the wheel is within a few degrees of the
> center of the aligning torque of the front tires. Going down an
> straight away, and slightly moving the steering wheel to the left or
> right will result in max force in the opposite direction. It's very
> unstable.
>
>
> The other thing is his ideas on FOV. If all he is saying is that the
> perspective needs to be correct in order for the brain to properly
> interpret FFB in the context of what is on-screen, then that is
> reasonable. But he seems to be saying that the forces felt at the
> wheel literally change when FOV settings are changed. I do not
> believe this. And even if they did change, IMO he would never be able
> to perceive the difference given the FFB settings he claims to run.
>
> But obviously, he has all the answers and everyone else in the world
> is clueless


In-game I use, 100 on the old scale, and 40.0 on the new scale.
Regarding everything, you are doing something wrongly. I am not
doing it, so I don't know what you are doing wrongly (generally I tend to
avoid doing things wrongly). You are measuring something, you don't know
what exactly. Somebody told you that this is it, and you accept this
lightly. It is your problem, not mine. If everybody else also accepts this
(lightly), this is also everybodyelse's problem, but also NOT mine.
I wrote that clipping isn't JUST a constant force in Force Fedback.
This means that it IS a constant force, but there is more to it.

Mario

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  #22  
Old September 1st 11, 11:37 PM posted to rec.autos.simulators
GaryR
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Posts: 90
Default FFB

>On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:39:29 -0700 (PDT), Pat Dotson > wrote:
>I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario
>recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would
>happen. It went about as well as I expected.
>
>Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one
>other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB?
>
>The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW
>
>Pat


I tried, it was a joke. If he feels that those settings in any way
approach real life (and I DO drive a race car) he needs (different)
medication..

GR
  #23  
Old September 2nd 11, 10:50 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

GaryR:
> >Pat Dotson:
>>I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario
>>recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would
>>happen. It went about as well as I expected.
>>
>>Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one
>>other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB?
>>
>>The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW

>
> I tried, it was a joke. If he feels that those settings in any way
> approach real life (and I DO drive a race car) he needs (different)
> medication..


Where you can have problems:
You got to set hight of screen ("DrivingVanishY"), latency
("cockpitLookDeadZone") and FOV.
FFB signal is something like hi-fi, you got to have clean,
undisturbed signal. You got to get rid of compression-like things, other
noise and delays. For example, iRacing's AA and AF works like a compression
(I presume). Use video card AA and AF. Use no-limit fps. And things like
that. Use USB port that doesn't share resources with other things. I disable
all I/O ports that I don't need. And things like that. Dirtiness,
compression and delays affect FFB.
Regarding how much it approaches real life. The way I am using FFB
is the standard made by inventors and productors of FFB and FFB devices.
They should know what they are doing, and it is advisable, if you are using
FFB devices, to use them per their standard. If you don't use them like
that, you can expect to have below average results.
I don't get constant clipping, if I would drive my wheel with the
strongest force it can produce, I wouldn't be able to drive a car, and I am
getting 1:57 at Suzuka, with fixed Corvette setup. Even more, I am just
testing FFB, and when you are testing FFB your last lap should be driven
like your first lap, otherwise you lose reference points, and you musn't
improve your driving line, or anything, the improvement in time must be
solely because of the improvement of FFB. Of course, I cannot resist to
improve on my driving line a bit, but this definitely isn't some major
effort, and I do have some room to improve times, when I finaly set the FFB
correctly.

Mario

  #24  
Old September 3rd 11, 12:21 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
GaryR
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Posts: 90
Default FFB

Sorry Mario, but the whole FFB thing is subjective at best, even on a
$15000 simulator. The 2D screen, the shaking, etc. are nothing like
what is felt in a real car so my thought is set it the way that
"feels" good and go play. Some of the fastest sim drivers in the world
can beat you with a joystick and no FFB, my thought is you are
wasteing a lot of time trying to achieve the unachievable.. it's a
game after all, just play it.

GR

>On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:50:35 +0200, "Mario Petrinovic" > wrote:
>GaryR:
>> >Pat Dotson:
>>>I'll be interested to hear from anyone else who tries what Mario
>>>recommends. I messed around with it for a bit just to see what would
>>>happen. It went about as well as I expected.
>>>
>>>Mario, has anyone else ever confirmed your results? Has even one
>>>other person ever responded positively to your posts on FFB?
>>>
>>>The FOV stuff is hilarious, BTW

>>
>> I tried, it was a joke. If he feels that those settings in any way
>> approach real life (and I DO drive a race car) he needs (different)
>> medication..

>
> Where you can have problems:
> You got to set hight of screen ("DrivingVanishY"), latency
>("cockpitLookDeadZone") and FOV.
> FFB signal is something like hi-fi, you got to have clean,
>undisturbed signal. You got to get rid of compression-like things, other
>noise and delays. For example, iRacing's AA and AF works like a compression
>(I presume). Use video card AA and AF. Use no-limit fps. And things like
>that. Use USB port that doesn't share resources with other things. I disable
>all I/O ports that I don't need. And things like that. Dirtiness,
>compression and delays affect FFB.
> Regarding how much it approaches real life. The way I am using FFB
>is the standard made by inventors and productors of FFB and FFB devices.
>They should know what they are doing, and it is advisable, if you are using
>FFB devices, to use them per their standard. If you don't use them like
>that, you can expect to have below average results.
> I don't get constant clipping, if I would drive my wheel with the
>strongest force it can produce, I wouldn't be able to drive a car, and I am
>getting 1:57 at Suzuka, with fixed Corvette setup. Even more, I am just
>testing FFB, and when you are testing FFB your last lap should be driven
>like your first lap, otherwise you lose reference points, and you musn't
>improve your driving line, or anything, the improvement in time must be
>solely because of the improvement of FFB. Of course, I cannot resist to
>improve on my driving line a bit, but this definitely isn't some major
>effort, and I do have some room to improve times, when I finaly set the FFB
>correctly.
>
> Mario


  #25  
Old September 3rd 11, 08:48 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default FFB

GaryR:
> Sorry Mario, but the whole FFB thing is subjective at best, even on a
> $15000 simulator. The 2D screen, the shaking, etc. are nothing like
> what is felt in a real car so my thought is set it the way that
> "feels" good and go play. Some of the fastest sim drivers in the world
> can beat you with a joystick and no FFB, my thought is you are
> wasteing a lot of time trying to achieve the unachievable.. it's a
> game after all, just play it.


Yes, that is your thought. My thought is that this isn't so. Just
like Ken said, you got to have just the right amount of damping. The same
goes for everything else. For now, it really looks like all four things have
to be on the same value. But, there also problems regarding some other
things (lag, FOV, dirty USB signal, and so on).
So, this is my thought, and my discussions are for people who are
thinking like me. So far, it looks like it works (I am driving pretty well
with my setup, much better than with iRacing's way to set up FFB, and I am
much more pleased with what kind of FFB I am getting).
The big problem is in iRacing (and the sim community). It looks like
initially they were pretty confused about FFB, and overhelmed with all those
numbers, and couldn't find the right way, so they created some kind of FFB
alchemy. Good example is the question od damping, where they support the way
that without damping you get the "pure" signal (which ISN'T the "right"
signal, just like, now suddenly shy, Ken explained). Then they have put 75%
damping. This alchemy just puts more confusion. Why don't they leave people
to do this for themselves (if THEIR view ALSO is that this is subjective).
Well, I am working on it, and trying to find the answers.

Mario

  #26  
Old September 5th 11, 03:04 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Ken MacKay[_3_]
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Posts: 5
Default FFB

Ken is not being shy, he just doesn't have anything new to add. ;-)
Have found nothing that clarifies if damping in FFB settings is
applied the same way as it is in control systems or how it is used (or
not used) by the software. Don't have any way of verifying if the
suggested settings are correct. Unless someone has come up with a way
of measuring the forces at the wheel and comparing them to the forces
being requested by the software then whether or not the forces are
correct for given settings will be subjective.
  #27  
Old September 5th 11, 08:52 AM posted to rec.autos.simulators
Mario Petrinovic
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Posts: 253
Default FFB

Ken MacKay:
> Ken is not being shy, he just doesn't have anything new to add. ;-)
> Have found nothing that clarifies if damping in FFB settings is
> applied the same way as it is in control systems or how it is used (or
> not used) by the software. Don't have any way of verifying if the
> suggested settings are correct. Unless someone has come up with a way
> of measuring the forces at the wheel and comparing them to the forces
> being requested by the software then whether or not the forces are
> correct for given settings will be subjective.


You cannot do this, because this thing is dynamic, and it works on a
feedback, differnt feed, different output.
But, once the "control" settings are established, you CAN do one
thing. You can distinguish *patterns* produced by incorrect settings (in
comparission to the correct settings), and produce a tool which can help you
to minimaze/eliminate those patterns, and thus help you establish more
correct settings more easily.

Mario

 




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