Help with 1959 horn and removing steering column

I've got a '59 Beetle and the horn started blasting one day.*
After*disconnecting the battery, I started to investigate.* The wire
that*was sticking out the center of the steering shaft* and connected
to the center of the horn button was not longer connected to whatever
it use to connect to inside the steering shaft.

I found this bit of information, which helped a lot, but
didn't*completely solve the problem.

http://www.thebugshop.org/bsfqhorn.htm
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wired/w...ired_12_00.htm

After more research, I believe I have 2 problems:

1)* I think there is a short between the copper sleeve and the steering
column.* When I connect the brown wire to the commutator*(bushing that
should be touching the copper sleeve), I read 12V from*
the steering shaft / sheering wheel hub to ground.* I believe this
is*incorrect and indicates that whatever was insulating the copper
band*from the steering shaft has failed.

2)* The brown wire that should connect to the copper band and come*out
the center of the steering shaft and connect to the screw*terminal of
the horn button is no longer connected to the copper band*
(it is, in fact, no longer in the car).

I think I'm going to need to remove the steering shaft to fix
these*problems.* Does this sound correct?* How exactly do I remove
the*steering shaft?* I disconnected it from the steering coupler, but
it*
still doesn't budge.

Please help.* I need to get the horn working to pass inspection and*I'd
prefer to get the wiring fixed correctly.

Thanks!
Matt

Matt Lehrian wrote:

> I've got a '59 Beetle and the horn started blasting one day.
> After disconnecting the battery, I started to investigate. The wire
> that was sticking out the center of the steering shaft and connected to
> the center of the horn button was not longer connected to whatever it
> use to connect to inside the steering shaft.
>
> I found this bit of information, which helped a lot, but
> didn't completely solve the problem.
>
> http://www.thebugshop.org/bsfqhorn.htm
> http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wired/w...ired_12_00.htm
>
> After more research, I believe I have 2 problems:
>
> 1) I think there is a short between the copper sleeve and the steering
> column. When I connect the brown wire to the commutator (bushing that
> should be touching the copper sleeve), I read 12V from
> the steering shaft / sheering wheel hub to ground. I believe this
> is incorrect and indicates that whatever was insulating the copper
> band from the steering shaft has failed.
>
> 2) The brown wire that should connect to the copper band and come out
> the center of the steering shaft and connect to the screw terminal of
> the horn button is no longer connected to the copper band
> (it is, in fact, no longer in the car).
>
> I think I'm going to need to remove the steering shaft to fix
> these problems. Does this sound correct? How exactly do I remove
> the steering shaft? I disconnected it from the steering coupler, but it
> still doesn't budge.
>
> Please help. I need to get the horn working to pass inspection and I'd
> prefer to get the wiring fixed correctly.
>
> Thanks!
> Matt
>

You should probably pull the whole outer column, along with shaft
out in one piece.

The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
or heat the end.

Then remove the outer column clamp under the dash and yank.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

>
> The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
> end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
> that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
> or heat the end.
>

Yes it really can be a pita to remove the splined shaft from the coupling.
IF the gastank is still in place i would NOT recomend heat.
The coupling is bolted together from (i believe) three parts. Upper and
lower shaft and a rubber disc with 4 brass(?) bushings in it where the bolds
go through..
If disconnecting the steering rod from the splined shaft isn't possible, you
could try to unbold the coupling. Worst case: bolds are breaking.
Make sure to re-assemble the coupling with a wire or ground strap.

Good luck,
Roger

bug '59 wrote:
>IF the gastank is still in place i would NOT recomend heat.
> Good luck,
> Roger
>
>

LOL! Good call!
Jim

So far, so good. I disconnected the upper shaft at the coupler &
remove the U-clamp that holds the steering tube under the dash. It's
loose and I should be able to pull it out.

Once it's out, do I need to remove the steering wheel to get the shaft
out of the tube? Does the shaft come out the top or bottom? Or either
end?

All I need to do is gain access to the copper band so I can "fix" the
circuit. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to find?

Sometimes I wonder if I should've just run a wire all the way down the
center of the steering to to a bolt on the steering coupler, but I'd
always know it wasn't correct. :-/

Thanks for your help.
Matt


On 2006-05-16 13:12:33 -0400, Speedy Jim > said:

> You should probably pull the whole outer column, along with shaft
> out in one piece.
>
> The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
> end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
> that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
> or heat the end.
>
> Then remove the outer column clamp under the dash and yank.

Matt Lehrian wrote:

> So far, so good. I disconnected the upper shaft at the coupler & remove
> the U-clamp that holds the steering tube under the dash. It's loose and
> I should be able to pull it out.
>
> Once it's out, do I need to remove the steering wheel to get the shaft
> out of the tube? Does the shaft come out the top or bottom? Or either
> end?
>
> All I need to do is gain access to the copper band so I can "fix" the
> circuit. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to find?
>
> Sometimes I wonder if I should've just run a wire all the way down the
> center of the steering to to a bolt on the steering coupler, but I'd
> always know it wasn't correct. :-/
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Matt


It's been a _long_ time since I had my '59.
It looks like the shaft will come out either end,
but there are the upper shaft bearings to contend with.
I bet the steering wheel comes off and the shaft comes
out the bottom.

Look for maybe a bakelite "spool" on the shaft with the
copper slip ring.

I think you will need a wire to the coupling anyway;
the ground path is thru the steering box ball bearings.

Jim

>
>
> On 2006-05-16 13:12:33 -0400, Speedy Jim > said:
>
>> You should probably pull the whole outer column, along with shaft
>> out in one piece.
>>
>> The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
>> end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
>> that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
>> or heat the end.
>>
>> Then remove the outer column clamp under the dash and yank.
>
>
>

So it turns out I need to remove the clamp and remove the lower end
from the upper steering shaft to get it through the firewall. I guess
I should've done that first. :-( Without removing the steering shaft
from the tube, I can't get access to the magical "copper band" that the
horn wire supposedly attached to.

I can kindof see into the steering tube through the hold for the
commutator and I can see the magical "copper band", but I can't slide
the shaft out enough to examine it up close (or fix it) yet.

I'm a little nervous, however. It's still unclear to me how the wire
attaches to this copper band. Since the copper band is on the outside
of the steering shaft, how does the wire get into the center of the
steering shaft? I'm really hoping there is a hole in the steering
shaft. Also I'm really hoping that the copper band is indeed
electrically isolated from the steering shaft. Also I'm really hoping
that I have the correct steering shaft for my car. That would suck if
I tore this all apart to find that I can't hook the circuit up
correctly.

Any more insight?

Thanks!
Matt


On 2006-05-17 20:02:57 -0400, Matt Lehrian said:

> So far, so good. I disconnected the upper shaft at the coupler &
> remove the U-clamp that holds the steering tube under the dash. It's
> loose and I should be able to pull it out.
>
> Once it's out, do I need to remove the steering wheel to get the shaft
> out of the tube? Does the shaft come out the top or bottom? Or either
> end?
>
> All I need to do is gain access to the copper band so I can "fix" the
> circuit. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to find?
>
> Sometimes I wonder if I should've just run a wire all the way down the
> center of the steering to to a bolt on the steering coupler, but I'd
> always know it wasn't correct. :-/
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Matt
>
>
> On 2006-05-16 13:12:33 -0400, Speedy Jim > said:
>
>> You should probably pull the whole outer column, along with shaft
>> out in one piece.
>>
>> The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
>> end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
>> that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
>> or heat the end.
>>
>> Then remove the outer column clamp under the dash and yank.

I sure hope I understand this.

It looks like, according to http://www.thebugshop.org/bsfqhorn.htm,
that in 1959 & earlier, the steering shaft itself was the path to
ground and there's a jumper at the steering coupler that completes the
path to ground (notably absent on my car - but no fear, I have a new
one to install). So it seems like I need to get a connection from the
center connector on the horn button to whatever the commutator "rides"
on around the steering shaft.

Apparently on 1960 & later, the circuit was wired a bit differently and
there was indeed a wire that ran all the way down the center of the
steering shaft, but I don't think my car should be wired that way. I
think it would be easier for me to fix my problem by doing this, but I
don't think it is "correct."

Of course, I could be wrong. :-/

Matt

On 2006-05-17 20:48:04 -0400, Speedy Jim > said:

> It's been a _long_ time since I had my '59.
> It looks like the shaft will come out either end,
> but there are the upper shaft bearings to contend with.
> I bet the steering wheel comes off and the shaft comes
> out the bottom.
>
> Look for maybe a bakelite "spool" on the shaft with the
> copper slip ring.
>
> I think you will need a wire to the coupling anyway;
> the ground path is thru the steering box ball bearings.

OK, I loosened the clamp on the steering shaft just above the coupler,
squirted a little WD-40 into the splines, removed the turn signal
stalk, and with a few hard yanks, the whole steering shaft / tube
pulled out. It was much easier to understand the circuit once
everything was apart.

So there is indeed a copper band around a cardboard insulator around
the steering shaft. And there's a small hole - maybe 1/4" in diameter
- in the steering column just above the band where the wire goes in and
comes out the top of the shaft. Frankly, I was surprised to see the
wire since there was another wire connected to the horn that pulled out
of the shaft, but whatever, it's clear this circuit was never correct.
Anyway, I pulled out the wire & rethreaded it through the shaft and
grabbed the end with needle nose pliers to pull it the whole way out
the top of the shaft & installed the horn button. Then I sanded the
dirt off the copper band to make sure the commutator brush would make a
good connection.

Upon examining the steering shaft, it was clear from the wear marks
that the bushing from the commutator was riding on the steering shaft
itself, just below the copper band. The reason? Because the steering
tube was pushed too far down - maybe an inch. This was good news for
me because there was no short between the copper band and the steering
shaft. I was able to slide everything together and test the circuit to
make sure that it worked.

Back to the car - I reinstalled the steering shaft / tube and adjusted
the position of the steering tube to make make sure that everything
lined up and... oooooooo gggaaaahhhh. The horn is working again.

Now I just have to straighten the steering wheel and tighten everything
back up and I should be good to go.

Thanks to everyone who provided assistance.

Cheers!
Matt


On 2006-05-17 20:50:41 -0400, Matt Lehrian said:

> So it turns out I need to remove the clamp and remove the lower end
> from the upper steering shaft to get it through the firewall. I guess
> I should've done that first. :-( Without removing the steering shaft
> from the tube, I can't get access to the magical "copper band" that the
> horn wire supposedly attached to.
>
> I can kindof see into the steering tube through the hold for the
> commutator and I can see the magical "copper band", but I can't slide
> the shaft out enough to examine it up close (or fix it) yet.
>
> I'm a little nervous, however. It's still unclear to me how the wire
> attaches to this copper band. Since the copper band is on the outside
> of the steering shaft, how does the wire get into the center of the
> steering shaft? I'm really hoping there is a hole in the steering
> shaft. Also I'm really hoping that the copper band is indeed
> electrically isolated from the steering shaft. Also I'm really hoping
> that I have the correct steering shaft for my car. That would suck if
> I tore this all apart to find that I can't hook the circuit up
> correctly.
>
> Any more insight?
>
> Thanks!
> Matt
>
>
> On 2006-05-17 20:02:57 -0400, Matt Lehrian said:
>
>> So far, so good. I disconnected the upper shaft at the coupler &
>> remove the U-clamp that holds the steering tube under the dash. It's
>> loose and I should be able to pull it out.
>>
>> Once it's out, do I need to remove the steering wheel to get the shaft
>> out of the tube? Does the shaft come out the top or bottom? Or either
>> end?
>>
>> All I need to do is gain access to the copper band so I can "fix" the
>> circuit. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to find?
>>
>> Sometimes I wonder if I should've just run a wire all the way down the
>> center of the steering to to a bolt on the steering coupler, but I'd
>> always know it wasn't correct. :-/
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> On 2006-05-16 13:12:33 -0400, Speedy Jim > said:
>>
>>> You should probably pull the whole outer column, along with shaft
>>> out in one piece.
>>>
>>> The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
>>> end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
>>> that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
>>> or heat the end.
>>>
>>> Then remove the outer column clamp under the dash and yank.

WhoooooHoooooo!
Good job.
Jim

Matt wrote:
> OK, I loosened the clamp on the steering shaft just above the coupler,
> squirted a little WD-40 into the splines, removed the turn signal stalk,
> and with a few hard yanks, the whole steering shaft / tube pulled out.
> It was much easier to understand the circuit once everything was apart.
>
> So there is indeed a copper band around a cardboard insulator around the
> steering shaft. And there's a small hole - maybe 1/4" in diameter - in
> the steering column just above the band where the wire goes in and comes
> out the top of the shaft. Frankly, I was surprised to see the wire
> since there was another wire connected to the horn that pulled out of
> the shaft, but whatever, it's clear this circuit was never correct.
> Anyway, I pulled out the wire & rethreaded it through the shaft and
> grabbed the end with needle nose pliers to pull it the whole way out the
> top of the shaft & installed the horn button. Then I sanded the dirt
> off the copper band to make sure the commutator brush would make a good
> connection.
>
> Upon examining the steering shaft, it was clear from the wear marks that
> the bushing from the commutator was riding on the steering shaft itself,
> just below the copper band. The reason? Because the steering tube was
> pushed too far down - maybe an inch. This was good news for me because
> there was no short between the copper band and the steering shaft. I
> was able to slide everything together and test the circuit to make sure
> that it worked.
>
> Back to the car - I reinstalled the steering shaft / tube and adjusted
> the position of the steering tube to make make sure that everything
> lined up and... oooooooo gggaaaahhhh. The horn is working again.
>
> Now I just have to straighten the steering wheel and tighten everything
> back up and I should be good to go.
>
> Thanks to everyone who provided assistance.
>
> Cheers!
> Matt
>
>
> On 2006-05-17 20:50:41 -0400, Matt Lehrian said:
>
>> So it turns out I need to remove the clamp and remove the lower end
>> from the upper steering shaft to get it through the firewall. I guess
>> I should've done that first. :-( Without removing the steering shaft
>> from the tube, I can't get access to the magical "copper band" that
>> the horn wire supposedly attached to.
>>
>> I can kindof see into the steering tube through the hold for the
>> commutator and I can see the magical "copper band", but I can't slide
>> the shaft out enough to examine it up close (or fix it) yet.
>>
>> I'm a little nervous, however. It's still unclear to me how the wire
>> attaches to this copper band. Since the copper band is on the outside
>> of the steering shaft, how does the wire get into the center of the
>> steering shaft? I'm really hoping there is a hole in the steering
>> shaft. Also I'm really hoping that the copper band is indeed
>> electrically isolated from the steering shaft. Also I'm really hoping
>> that I have the correct steering shaft for my car. That would suck if
>> I tore this all apart to find that I can't hook the circuit up correctly.
>>
>> Any more insight?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> On 2006-05-17 20:02:57 -0400, Matt Lehrian said:
>>
>>> So far, so good. I disconnected the upper shaft at the coupler &
>>> remove the U-clamp that holds the steering tube under the dash. It's
>>> loose and I should be able to pull it out.
>>>
>>> Once it's out, do I need to remove the steering wheel to get the
>>> shaft out of the tube? Does the shaft come out the top or bottom?
>>> Or either end?
>>>
>>> All I need to do is gain access to the copper band so I can "fix" the
>>> circuit. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to find?
>>>
>>> Sometimes I wonder if I should've just run a wire all the way down
>>> the center of the steering to to a bolt on the steering coupler, but
>>> I'd always know it wasn't correct. :-/
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2006-05-16 13:12:33 -0400, Speedy Jim > said:
>>>
>>>> You should probably pull the whole outer column, along with shaft
>>>> out in one piece.
>>>>
>>>> The shaft is splined to the upper coupling end. The coupling
>>>> end has to be pulled off those splines and, after 47 years,
>>>> that can be a bitch. May have to pry the shaft open a bit
>>>> or heat the end.
>>>>
>>>> Then remove the outer column clamp under the dash and yank.
>
>
>