Further update

See prior posts regarding VW Fox wagon.

The battery is holding a charge, and obviously, the alternator is doing its
job. Car starts fine and quickly, no dim illumination of headlights or any
other sign of poor charging.

I continue to smell gasoline when exiting the car after traveling under the
hood area. No visible gasoline leakage. My guesses a
Fuel pressure regulator on the fuel distributor. $250 new.
Fuel pressure regulator standalone, vacuum operated. $250 new.
Cold start valve. $93 new.
Fuel distributor. Comes with fuel pressure regulator attached. $500 new.
Request suggestions on narrowing the field to a single unit for replacement.

Mileage has dropped from 32mpg to 24mpg. Acceleration and holding its own
uphill has dropped as well at partial throttle.
--
Dave

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:23:45 -0600, "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote:

>See prior posts regarding VW Fox wagon.
>
>The battery is holding a charge, and obviously, the alternator is doing its
>job. Car starts fine and quickly, no dim illumination of headlights or any
>other sign of poor charging.
>
>I continue to smell gasoline when exiting the car after traveling under the
>hood area.

First, you should never travel under the hood area. It is hard to see
where you are going, and you can be burned on the hot engine
components. <bg>

> No visible gasoline leakage. My guesses a
>Fuel pressure regulator on the fuel distributor. $250 new.
>Fuel pressure regulator standalone, vacuum operated. $250 new.
>Cold start valve. $93 new.
>Fuel distributor. Comes with fuel pressure regulator attached. $500 new.
>Request suggestions on narrowing the field to a single unit for replacement.
>
>Mileage has dropped from 32mpg to 24mpg. Acceleration and holding its own
>uphill has dropped as well at partial throttle.

Seriously... Round up an emissions tester (one that detects
hydrocarbons) and use that to 'sniff' around the engine. That will
perhaps localize the leakage area some. I'd strongly recommend not
buying new parts unless you know for a fact that the old part si
defective--that's the most expensive and fustrating method to diagnose
a problem.

Replies within..............
The year of your Fox would help but if you have a cold start valve then it
does not have the Digifant II system.
Does this have a mechanical fuel pressure regulator or an electronic one?

"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
...
> See prior posts regarding VW Fox wagon.
>
> The battery is holding a charge, and obviously, the alternator is doing
> its job. Car starts fine and quickly, no dim illumination of headlights
> or any other sign of poor charging.
>
> I continue to smell gasoline when exiting the car after traveling under
> the hood area. No visible gasoline leakage. My guesses a
> Fuel pressure regulator on the fuel distributor. $250 new.
> Fuel pressure regulator standalone, vacuum operated. $250 new.
> Cold start valve. $93 new.
> Fuel distributor. Comes with fuel pressure regulator attached. $500 new.
> Request suggestions on narrowing the field to a single unit for
> replacement.

Maybe the fuel injectors are not fully shutting off when the engine is off.
I have replaced a few under the car fuel lines on Jettas and Audi 4000s
In your case it might be the fuel evap system. So the fuel vapors might be
escaping through some of those hoses to the engine.

>
> Mileage has dropped from 32mpg to 24mpg. Acceleration and holding its own
> uphill has dropped as well at partial throttle.
> --
> Dave
>
>

88 Fox. CIS-E. Mechanical fuel injection aided by electronic sensor
devices and "brain box" for pollution control.

--
Dave
"dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
t...
> Replies within..............
> The year of your Fox would help but if you have a cold start valve then it
> does not have the Digifant II system.
> Does this have a mechanical fuel pressure regulator or an electronic one?
>
> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
> ...
>> See prior posts regarding VW Fox wagon.
>>
>> The battery is holding a charge, and obviously, the alternator is doing
>> its job. Car starts fine and quickly, no dim illumination of headlights
>> or any other sign of poor charging.
>>
>> I continue to smell gasoline when exiting the car after traveling under
>> the hood area. No visible gasoline leakage. My guesses a
>> Fuel pressure regulator on the fuel distributor. $250 new.
>> Fuel pressure regulator standalone, vacuum operated. $250 new.
>> Cold start valve. $93 new.
>> Fuel distributor. Comes with fuel pressure regulator attached. $500
>> new.
>> Request suggestions on narrowing the field to a single unit for
>> replacement.
>
> Maybe the fuel injectors are not fully shutting off when the engine is
> off.
> I have replaced a few under the car fuel lines on Jettas and Audi 4000s
> In your case it might be the fuel evap system. So the fuel vapors might
> be escaping through some of those hoses to the engine.
>
>>
>> Mileage has dropped from 32mpg to 24mpg. Acceleration and holding its
>> own uphill has dropped as well at partial throttle.
>> --
>> Dave
>>
>>
>
>

Ok I can see it now.
Did you look at the vacuum hoses yet?
Do you ever fill up the gas tank too full? Might have caused problems with
the charcoal cannister.
Might be a leak from one of the 5 injectors.
I don't think that you need to buy any expensive parts. :-)

"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
...
> 88 Fox. CIS-E. Mechanical fuel injection aided by electronic sensor
> devices and "brain box" for pollution control.
>
> --
> Dave
> "dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Replies within..............
>> The year of your Fox would help but if you have a cold start valve then
>> it does not have the Digifant II system.
>> Does this have a mechanical fuel pressure regulator or an electronic one?
>>
>> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> See prior posts regarding VW Fox wagon.
>>>
>>> The battery is holding a charge, and obviously, the alternator is doing
>>> its job. Car starts fine and quickly, no dim illumination of headlights
>>> or any other sign of poor charging.
>>>
>>> I continue to smell gasoline when exiting the car after traveling under
>>> the hood area. No visible gasoline leakage. My guesses a
>>> Fuel pressure regulator on the fuel distributor. $250 new.
>>> Fuel pressure regulator standalone, vacuum operated. $250 new.
>>> Cold start valve. $93 new.
>>> Fuel distributor. Comes with fuel pressure regulator attached. $500
>>> new.
>>> Request suggestions on narrowing the field to a single unit for
>>> replacement.
>>
>> Maybe the fuel injectors are not fully shutting off when the engine is
>> off.
>> I have replaced a few under the car fuel lines on Jettas and Audi 4000s
>> In your case it might be the fuel evap system. So the fuel vapors might
>> be escaping through some of those hoses to the engine.
>>
>>>
>>> Mileage has dropped from 32mpg to 24mpg. Acceleration and holding its
>>> own uphill has dropped as well at partial throttle.
>>> --
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Vacuum hoses all good. I checked all the first time you recommended it.

I've always maxxed out the gas when filling

I can see injector or injectors leaking by causing the severe gasoline odor
if it was external. Its not.

I do need help on the cold start valve. It does not leak when I remove it
from its normal location, turn the ignition key to on, and leave it that way
exposed to the elements. My guess is that the 5th injector you are being
mystical about on this 4 cylinder engine.
--
Dave
"dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
t...
> Ok I can see it now.
> Did you look at the vacuum hoses yet?
> Do you ever fill up the gas tank too full? Might have caused problems
> with the charcoal cannister.
> Might be a leak from one of the 5 injectors.
> I don't think that you need to buy any expensive parts. :-)
>
> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
> ...
>> 88 Fox. CIS-E. Mechanical fuel injection aided by electronic sensor
>> devices and "brain box" for pollution control.
>>
>> --
>> Dave
>> "dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> Replies within..............
>>> The year of your Fox would help but if you have a cold start valve then
>>> it does not have the Digifant II system.
>>> Does this have a mechanical fuel pressure regulator or an electronic
>>> one?
>>>
>>> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> See prior posts regarding VW Fox wagon.
>>>>
>>>> The battery is holding a charge, and obviously, the alternator is doing
>>>> its job. Car starts fine and quickly, no dim illumination of
>>>> headlights or any other sign of poor charging.
>>>>
>>>> I continue to smell gasoline when exiting the car after traveling under
>>>> the hood area. No visible gasoline leakage. My guesses a
>>>> Fuel pressure regulator on the fuel distributor. $250 new.
>>>> Fuel pressure regulator standalone, vacuum operated. $250 new.
>>>> Cold start valve. $93 new.
>>>> Fuel distributor. Comes with fuel pressure regulator attached. $500
>>>> new.
>>>> Request suggestions on narrowing the field to a single unit for
>>>> replacement.
>>>
>>> Maybe the fuel injectors are not fully shutting off when the engine is
>>> off.
>>> I have replaced a few under the car fuel lines on Jettas and Audi 4000s
>>> In your case it might be the fuel evap system. So the fuel vapors might
>>> be escaping through some of those hoses to the engine.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mileage has dropped from 32mpg to 24mpg. Acceleration and holding its
>>>> own uphill has dropped as well at partial throttle.
>>>> --
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
...
> Vacuum hoses all good. I checked all the first time you recommended it.

OK now what about the fuel vapor lines?

> I've always maxxed out the gas when filling

Possibly it has too much fuel in the system and gets into the charcoal
cannister or vent lines. And AFAIK you have to allow some air to remain in
the system.

> I can see injector or injectors leaking by causing the severe gasoline
> odor if it was external. Its not.

ON or IN a hot engine, the fuel injectors could leak a little fuel and that
fuel could hit the hot engine and vaporize coming out of any leaking hose or
maybe even the air filter box.
Just a wild and crazy hunch! :-)
I will assume that you checked the fuel tank, transfer pump/fuel level
sensor cap, all fuel lines, ALL of the EVAP system (hoses, tubes, cannister
and ???)

> I do need help on the cold start valve. It does not leak when I remove it
> from its normal location, turn the ignition key to on, and leave it that
> way exposed to the elements. My guess is that the 5th injector you are
> being mystical about on this 4 cylinder engine.

Injectors will have to be check for leaking with the ign on and the fuel
pump running (relay bypassed)

--
later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

"dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
> ...
>> Vacuum hoses all good. I checked all the first time you recommended it.
>
> OK now what about the fuel vapor lines?

There's only one. Goes to the charcoal canister under the hood left side.

>
>> I've always maxxed out the gas when filling
>
> Possibly it has too much fuel in the system and gets into the charcoal
> cannister or vent lines. And AFAIK you have to allow some air to remain
> in the system.

If the charcoal canister was lower than where I top the tank, possibly. But
its not.

>
>> I can see injector or injectors leaking by causing the severe gasoline
>> odor if it was external. Its not.
>
> ON or IN a hot engine, the fuel injectors could leak a little fuel and
> that fuel could hit the hot engine and vaporize coming out of any leaking
> hose or

Have to be a vacuum hose?
They are all good.

> maybe even the air filter box.

There's not many places for vaporized fuel to escape the intake and hit the
open air, is there?

> Just a wild and crazy hunch! :-)
> I will assume that you checked the fuel tank

for what?

> transfer pump

for what?

>fuel level sensor cap

Don't see that anywhere on the car?

>all fuel lines

Can see the return lines, but not the feed side?

ALL of the EVAP system (hoses, tubes, cannister
> and ???)
>

Doing that this morning per 2 checks noted in the Bentley, along with a
self-developed check for the diaphragm fuel regulator.

>> I do need help on the cold start valve. It does not leak when I remove
>> it from its normal location, turn the ignition key to on, and leave it
>> that way exposed to the elements. My guess is that the 5th injector you
>> are being mystical about on this 4 cylinder engine.
>
> Injectors will have to be check for leaking with the ign on and the fuel
> pump running (relay bypassed)

Don't hurt to pull the coil wire either among other things noted in the
Bentley. The injector leak test in the Bentley is part of the first test,
they call it the simple test. No special equipment needed. The singular
cold start valve is similar but in different location. Couldn't find in the
Bentley referring to the cold start valve as an injector any place.

--
Dave

"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
...
> "dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Vacuum hoses all good. I checked all the first time you recommended it.
>>
>> OK now what about the fuel vapor lines?
>
> There's only one. Goes to the charcoal canister under the hood left side.

That seems odd that there is only 1 fuel vapor line.
There should be two hoses/lines going to the gravity valve and the gas tank.
There should be 1 from the gas tank filler neck going to the charcoal
cannister, from the CC to maybe a valve and from the valve to the engine's
intake system. Not sure on this though.

>
>>
>>> I've always maxxed out the gas when filling
>>
>> Possibly it has too much fuel in the system and gets into the charcoal
>> cannister or vent lines. And AFAIK you have to allow some air to remain
>> in the system.
>
> If the charcoal canister was lower than where I top the tank, possibly.
> But its not.

Have you ever loosened your gas cap and heard hissing like it was
pressurized? You would be surprised that the fuel could make it up to the
charcoal cannister if the fuel was under some pressure. ;-)

>>> I can see injector or injectors leaking by causing the severe gasoline
>>> odor if it was external. Its not.
>>
>> ON or IN a hot engine, the fuel injectors could leak a little fuel and
>> that fuel could hit the hot engine and vaporize coming out of any leaking
>> hose or
>
> Have to be a vacuum hose?
> They are all good.

Did you do a vacuum or pressure test on all of the hoses/lines? Or how do
you know that they are good?


>> maybe even the air filter box.
>
> There's not many places for vaporized fuel to escape the intake and hit
> the open air, is there?

No not many places but vapor seems to have a way of escaping if it can!
Might even be around fuel injector seals. I have even seen intake manifolds
loose at the cylinder heads. 8^o

>
>> Just a wild and crazy hunch! :-)
>> I will assume that you checked the fuel tank fuel level sensor cap
> Don't see that anywhere on the car?

I am not sure where or how the fuel tank is set up in the VW Fox Wagon, but
on the Sedan you access the cap through the trunk. <:-)
That cap should be on top of the gas tank in your cargo area under a mat and
an access cover.
Your bayonet style cap might have a bad seal on it, but you don't smell raw
gas in the cabin do you. Well maybe you don't have to look there. <g>


>>all fuel lines
>
> Can see the return lines, but not the feed side?
>
> ALL of the EVAP system (hoses, tubes, cannister
>> and ???)
>>
>
> Doing that this morning per 2 checks noted in the Bentley, along with a
> self-developed check for the diaphragm fuel regulator.
>
>>> I do need help on the cold start valve. It does not leak when I remove
>>> it from its normal location, turn the ignition key to on, and leave it
>>> that way exposed to the elements. My guess is that the 5th injector you
>>> are being mystical about on this 4 cylinder engine.
>>
>> Injectors will have to be check for leaking with the ign on and the fuel
>> pump running (relay bypassed)
>
> Don't hurt to pull the coil wire either among other things noted in the
> Bentley. The injector leak test in the Bentley is part of the first test,
> they call it the simple test. No special equipment needed. The singular
> cold start valve is similar but in different location. Couldn't find in
> the Bentley referring to the cold start valve as an injector any place.

Same thing, different name but that Cold Start Valve IS an injector! ;-)

Simple test but if that proves nothing, then you might have to get more
involved and do a pressure test to see if the residual fuel pressure drops
too quickly.

Good luck with it!
BRW I still think those fuel lines might be leaking at a rusted spot!! 8^)

"dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
> ...
>> "dave AKA vwdoc1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Vacuum hoses all good. I checked all the first time you recommended
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> OK now what about the fuel vapor lines?
>>
>> There's only one. Goes to the charcoal canister under the hood left
>> side.
>
> That seems odd that there is only 1 fuel vapor line.
> There should be two hoses/lines going to the gravity valve and the gas
> tank.
> There should be 1 from the gas tank filler neck going to the charcoal
> cannister, from the CC to maybe a valve and from the valve to the engine's
> intake system. Not sure on this though.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> I've always maxxed out the gas when filling
>>>
>>> Possibly it has too much fuel in the system and gets into the charcoal
>>> cannister or vent lines. And AFAIK you have to allow some air to remain
>>> in the system.
>>
>> If the charcoal canister was lower than where I top the tank, possibly.
>> But its not.
>
> Have you ever loosened your gas cap and heard hissing like it was
> pressurized? You would be surprised that the fuel could make it up to the
> charcoal cannister if the fuel was under some pressure. ;-)
>
>>>> I can see injector or injectors leaking by causing the severe gasoline
>>>> odor if it was external. Its not.
>>>
>>> ON or IN a hot engine, the fuel injectors could leak a little fuel and
>>> that fuel could hit the hot engine and vaporize coming out of any
>>> leaking hose or
>>
>> Have to be a vacuum hose?
>> They are all good.
>
> Did you do a vacuum or pressure test on all of the hoses/lines? Or how do
> you know that they are good?
>
>
>>> maybe even the air filter box.
>>
>> There's not many places for vaporized fuel to escape the intake and hit
>> the open air, is there?
>
> No not many places but vapor seems to have a way of escaping if it can!
> Might even be around fuel injector seals. I have even seen intake
> manifolds loose at the cylinder heads. 8^o
>
>>
>>> Just a wild and crazy hunch! :-)
>>> I will assume that you checked the fuel tank fuel level sensor cap
>> Don't see that anywhere on the car?
>
> I am not sure where or how the fuel tank is set up in the VW Fox Wagon,
> but on the Sedan you access the cap through the trunk. <:-)
> That cap should be on top of the gas tank in your cargo area under a mat
> and an access cover.
> Your bayonet style cap might have a bad seal on it, but you don't smell
> raw gas in the cabin do you. Well maybe you don't have to look there.
> <g>
>
>
>>>all fuel lines
>>
>> Can see the return lines, but not the feed side?
>>
>> ALL of the EVAP system (hoses, tubes, cannister
>>> and ???)
>>>
>>
>> Doing that this morning per 2 checks noted in the Bentley, along with a
>> self-developed check for the diaphragm fuel regulator.
>>
>>>> I do need help on the cold start valve. It does not leak when I remove
>>>> it from its normal location, turn the ignition key to on, and leave it
>>>> that way exposed to the elements. My guess is that the 5th injector
>>>> you are being mystical about on this 4 cylinder engine.
>>>
>>> Injectors will have to be check for leaking with the ign on and the fuel
>>> pump running (relay bypassed)
>>
>> Don't hurt to pull the coil wire either among other things noted in the
>> Bentley. The injector leak test in the Bentley is part of the first
>> test, they call it the simple test. No special equipment needed. The
>> singular cold start valve is similar but in different location. Couldn't
>> find in the Bentley referring to the cold start valve as an injector any
>> place.
>
> Same thing, different name but that Cold Start Valve IS an injector! ;-)
>
> Simple test but if that proves nothing, then you might have to get more
> involved and do a pressure test to see if the residual fuel pressure drops
> too quickly.
>
> Good luck with it!
> BRW I still think those fuel lines might be leaking at a rusted spot!!
> 8^)
>

Found a fuel leak. Appears to be at fuel reservoir above primary fuel pump.
Entire area is fuel-wet, but no drips apparent on ground. Dropped holding
assy that holds fuel pump, accumulator, fuel filter (all is fuel-wet).
Return line from engine compartment connected at fuel reservoir can be moved
easily in circular fashion, but not removable by hand. Got 6 ft. of 1/4"
fuel line and clamps to replace all in the area.

Found a vacuum line that has a sliver line opening from end to about 2".
Located at charcoal canister. Doing similar with vacuum line replacements.
Speaking of that, local parts house sold me 1/4" fuel line for use as
vacuumm hose. Really tough to connect...

Charcoal canister clear of fuel. But, the bottom which the Bentley doesn't
mention, may be a problem. Disconnected bottom hose. Found debris at the
sharp corner of this line which is immediately adjacent to the connection to
the charcoal canister. Charcoal will exit the canister on the bottom with a
mediocre shake. Stainless steel hardware cloth adapted to the bottom
opening of the canister a solution?


Tough to find. Looking for the securing adaptor for the accelerator line to
gas pedal assy. It ain't there. Tied off literally with a shoestring now.
--
Dave