How would you store a mildly used electric fuel pump?

At Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:14:23 -0700, uncle_vito rearranged some electrons
to write:

> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>> news:ae951d8e-7aa2-4315-b365-
...
>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>
>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or
>> 15 years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes
>> the same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>
>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>> tank full.
>>
>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there
>> is no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>> shortens its life.
>>
>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>> will have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>
>>
>>
> Electric fuel pumps are DC since they are run off the 12 v battery and
> there is no external electronic circuitry to perform AC switching.
> That means there must be brushes and slip rings. I have always
> wondered how sparking does not ignite the fuel. Perhaps all is OK if
> the pump is totally submerged, but how about if you are running out of
> fuel. How do you prevent the pump from igniting the gas in the tank?

You would need to have oxygen in order to start a fire.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/23/2013 10:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 03/22/2013 12:47 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or
>>>> 15
>>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes
>>>> the
>>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>>
>>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>>> tank full.
>>>>
>>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there
>>>> is
>>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>>> shortens its life.
>>>>
>>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>>> will have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>>
>>> urban legend. when early fuel injection pumps failed, it was because
>>> they were cheap carp, not because they weren't getting any cooling.
>>> fuel circulates through the pump. as long as it's pumping, it's
>>> getting "cooled". [and why "cooling" is considered so important is a
>>> complete mystery. windshield wiper motors can run indefinitely
>>> "uncooled".]
>>>
>>
>>
>> Windshield wiper motors can be internally lubricated, this is a
>> difficult accomplishment in an environment that by it's very nature
>> destroys the lubracative qualities of oil and grease.
>
> you said "...no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs
> hot which shortens its life...", so i pointed out that windshield wiper
> motors run indefinitely without cooling. you didn't say anything about
> lubrication, which is an entirely different topic.
>
> if you're trying to say that fuel pumps are not lubricated, then you're
> wrong there too - they use polymer bushings [like delrin] that are
> sufficiently lubricated by the fuel that fills the pump when it's used for
> the first time.
>
>
>>
>> In nearly every case on the discussion forums that I participate in, the
>> people that need to replace fuel pumps report habitually driving around
>> in the sub-1/4 tank range and buying just enough gas to get to the next
>> day or the day after. The common thread among this group is low fuel and
>> the need for a fuel pump. In all of my years, the only time I replaced a
>> fuel pump was a year os so after buying a used car that I don't know the
>> previous history of. But, of all the cars that I have owned, only one
>> has needed a fuel pump. Granted, many of them were not fuel injected, so
>> the fuel pump was mechanical and mounted to the side of the engine
>> block. But, I've owned a fair share of fuel injected cars and trucks,
>> and only one fuel pump. I always fill the tank.
>>
>> You can drive around with an empty gas tank if you want, but I'll
>> continue to be happy in the thought that a habitually full tank is
>> better than an habitually empty one when the fuel pumkp life is in
>> question. I'll not lose any sleep telling people to lean to keeping the
>> tank filled rather than to allow it to run on empty for extended periods.
>
> you can go ahead and believe in urban legend all you want, but the fact is
> that fuel pumps are fully internally saturated with fuel. any time
> they're working and generating heat, they're circulating that liquid and
> the heat is being carried away. [not that it's even an issue in the first
> place, but hey.] if there's insufficient fuel to circulate, the car's not
> going to work, and even if the ignition is left on, the pump will be
> switched off after two seconds by the engine computer if the engine stops
> running. thus, there is no situation in which heat can possibly be a
> failure mode for the typical modern fuel pump.
>
> early fuel injection pumps did indeed fail regularly, but they were not
> the impeller types we see today. impellers don't have any touching parts
> and have nothing to wear - they are as reliable as the electric motor that
> drives them, and /that/ is reliable as its manufacturer wants it to be -
> you don't have any influence over it.
>

Be that as it is, I drive a 20-year old car with the original fuel pump, and
lots of people that have cars half the age of mine have already replace the
fuel pump on the same make of car, and they report driving around for days
upon days, weeks on end for some, and the pump ultimately fails. Did the low
fuel level cause the demise of the fuel pump? Who knows. But the very small
data pool that I have says that habitual low fuel and fuel pump failures are
related.

If you can avoid a $150-ish part by doing nothing more than filling the gas
tank, why not do that?

If you are in the habit of driving around with the fuel level very low, then
don't be alarmed that the pump fails. Just make the necessary repair and
move on.

But the OP should sell the pump he has, and wait for the day that he needs
to replace a fuel pump and then go out and buy one.

A windshield wiper motor and a fuel pump motor have little resembelence to
one another after you get past the motor part. A fuel pump is a low torque,
high speed motor. The windshield wipers use a high torque, low speed motor.
A fuel pump directly pumps fuel, the windshield has a reduction gear to
mechanically increase the power of the mechanism. The fuel pump runs as
long as the car is on, more or less, the wiper motor runs much less. Apples
and oranges....

On 03/25/2013 10:22 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 03/23/2013 10:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On 03/22/2013 12:47 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10
>>>>> or 15
>>>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that
>>>>> takes the
>>>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>>>> tank full.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>>>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then
>>>>> there is
>>>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>>>> shortens its life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>>>> will have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>>>
>>>> urban legend. when early fuel injection pumps failed, it was because
>>>> they were cheap carp, not because they weren't getting any cooling.
>>>> fuel circulates through the pump. as long as it's pumping, it's
>>>> getting "cooled". [and why "cooling" is considered so important is a
>>>> complete mystery. windshield wiper motors can run indefinitely
>>>> "uncooled".]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Windshield wiper motors can be internally lubricated, this is a
>>> difficult accomplishment in an environment that by it's very nature
>>> destroys the lubracative qualities of oil and grease.
>>
>> you said "...no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor
>> runs hot which shortens its life...", so i pointed out that windshield
>> wiper motors run indefinitely without cooling. you didn't say
>> anything about lubrication, which is an entirely different topic.
>>
>> if you're trying to say that fuel pumps are not lubricated, then
>> you're wrong there too - they use polymer bushings [like delrin] that
>> are sufficiently lubricated by the fuel that fills the pump when it's
>> used for the first time.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In nearly every case on the discussion forums that I participate in, the
>>> people that need to replace fuel pumps report habitually driving around
>>> in the sub-1/4 tank range and buying just enough gas to get to the next
>>> day or the day after. The common thread among this group is low fuel and
>>> the need for a fuel pump. In all of my years, the only time I replaced a
>>> fuel pump was a year os so after buying a used car that I don't know the
>>> previous history of. But, of all the cars that I have owned, only one
>>> has needed a fuel pump. Granted, many of them were not fuel injected, so
>>> the fuel pump was mechanical and mounted to the side of the engine
>>> block. But, I've owned a fair share of fuel injected cars and trucks,
>>> and only one fuel pump. I always fill the tank.
>>>
>>> You can drive around with an empty gas tank if you want, but I'll
>>> continue to be happy in the thought that a habitually full tank is
>>> better than an habitually empty one when the fuel pumkp life is in
>>> question. I'll not lose any sleep telling people to lean to keeping the
>>> tank filled rather than to allow it to run on empty for extended
>>> periods.
>>
>> you can go ahead and believe in urban legend all you want, but the
>> fact is that fuel pumps are fully internally saturated with fuel. any
>> time they're working and generating heat, they're circulating that
>> liquid and the heat is being carried away. [not that it's even an
>> issue in the first place, but hey.] if there's insufficient fuel to
>> circulate, the car's not going to work, and even if the ignition is
>> left on, the pump will be switched off after two seconds by the engine
>> computer if the engine stops running. thus, there is no situation in
>> which heat can possibly be a failure mode for the typical modern fuel
>> pump.
>>
>> early fuel injection pumps did indeed fail regularly, but they were
>> not the impeller types we see today. impellers don't have any
>> touching parts and have nothing to wear - they are as reliable as the
>> electric motor that drives them, and /that/ is reliable as its
>> manufacturer wants it to be - you don't have any influence over it.
>>
>
> Be that as it is, I drive a 20-year old car with the original fuel pump,
> and lots of people that have cars half the age of mine have already
> replace the fuel pump on the same make of car, and they report driving
> around for days upon days, weeks on end for some, and the pump
> ultimately fails. Did the low fuel level cause the demise of the fuel
> pump? Who knows. But the very small data pool that I have says that
> habitual low fuel and fuel pump failures are related.
>
> If you can avoid a $150-ish part by doing nothing more than filling the
> gas tank, why not do that?
>
> If you are in the habit of driving around with the fuel level very low,
> then don't be alarmed that the pump fails. Just make the necessary
> repair and move on.
>
> But the OP should sell the pump he has, and wait for the day that he
> needs to replace a fuel pump and then go out and buy one.
>
> A windshield wiper motor and a fuel pump motor have little resembelence
> to one another after you get past the motor part.

since the fuel pump doesn't have wearing parts other than the motor
component, the resemblance between both motor units is 100% relevant.


> A fuel pump is a low
> torque, high speed motor. The windshield wipers use a high torque, low
> speed motor. A fuel pump directly pumps fuel, the windshield has a
> reduction gear to mechanically increase the power of the mechanism.

reduction gears mean that you can [and do] use a high speed low torque
electric motor for the wipers.


> The
> fuel pump runs as long as the car is on, more or less, the wiper motor
> runs much less. Apples and oranges....

you've never been to oregon or washington state in the winter then - in
their rainy season, there is 100% correlation between fuel pump hours
and wiper motor hours.


--
fact check required

On 3/25/2013 19:33, jim beam wrote:

>> A windshield wiper motor and a fuel pump motor have little resembelence
>> to one another after you get past the motor part.
>
> since the fuel pump doesn't have wearing parts other than the motor
> component, the resemblance between both motor units is 100% relevant.
>

Nope, I disagree. There is a big difference between different types
of electric motors, if not I'd be out a side gig. Fuel pumps spin much
faster and always. Wiper motor not so much.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> On 03/25/2013 10:22 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 03/23/2013 10:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On 03/22/2013 12:47 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10
>>>>>> or 15
>>>>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that
>>>>>> takes the
>>>>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>>>>> tank full.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>>>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>>>>> shortens its life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>>>>> will have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>>>>
>>>>> urban legend. when early fuel injection pumps failed, it was because
>>>>> they were cheap carp, not because they weren't getting any cooling.
>>>>> fuel circulates through the pump. as long as it's pumping, it's
>>>>> getting "cooled". [and why "cooling" is considered so important is a
>>>>> complete mystery. windshield wiper motors can run indefinitely
>>>>> "uncooled".]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Windshield wiper motors can be internally lubricated, this is a
>>>> difficult accomplishment in an environment that by it's very nature
>>>> destroys the lubracative qualities of oil and grease.
>>>
>>> you said "...no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor
>>> runs hot which shortens its life...", so i pointed out that windshield
>>> wiper motors run indefinitely without cooling. you didn't say
>>> anything about lubrication, which is an entirely different topic.
>>>
>>> if you're trying to say that fuel pumps are not lubricated, then
>>> you're wrong there too - they use polymer bushings [like delrin] that
>>> are sufficiently lubricated by the fuel that fills the pump when it's
>>> used for the first time.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In nearly every case on the discussion forums that I participate in,
>>>> the
>>>> people that need to replace fuel pumps report habitually driving around
>>>> in the sub-1/4 tank range and buying just enough gas to get to the next
>>>> day or the day after. The common thread among this group is low fuel
>>>> and
>>>> the need for a fuel pump. In all of my years, the only time I replaced
>>>> a
>>>> fuel pump was a year os so after buying a used car that I don't know
>>>> the
>>>> previous history of. But, of all the cars that I have owned, only one
>>>> has needed a fuel pump. Granted, many of them were not fuel injected,
>>>> so
>>>> the fuel pump was mechanical and mounted to the side of the engine
>>>> block. But, I've owned a fair share of fuel injected cars and trucks,
>>>> and only one fuel pump. I always fill the tank.
>>>>
>>>> You can drive around with an empty gas tank if you want, but I'll
>>>> continue to be happy in the thought that a habitually full tank is
>>>> better than an habitually empty one when the fuel pumkp life is in
>>>> question. I'll not lose any sleep telling people to lean to keeping the
>>>> tank filled rather than to allow it to run on empty for extended
>>>> periods.
>>>
>>> you can go ahead and believe in urban legend all you want, but the
>>> fact is that fuel pumps are fully internally saturated with fuel. any
>>> time they're working and generating heat, they're circulating that
>>> liquid and the heat is being carried away. [not that it's even an
>>> issue in the first place, but hey.] if there's insufficient fuel to
>>> circulate, the car's not going to work, and even if the ignition is
>>> left on, the pump will be switched off after two seconds by the engine
>>> computer if the engine stops running. thus, there is no situation in
>>> which heat can possibly be a failure mode for the typical modern fuel
>>> pump.
>>>
>>> early fuel injection pumps did indeed fail regularly, but they were
>>> not the impeller types we see today. impellers don't have any
>>> touching parts and have nothing to wear - they are as reliable as the
>>> electric motor that drives them, and /that/ is reliable as its
>>> manufacturer wants it to be - you don't have any influence over it.
>>>
>>
>> Be that as it is, I drive a 20-year old car with the original fuel pump,
>> and lots of people that have cars half the age of mine have already
>> replace the fuel pump on the same make of car, and they report driving
>> around for days upon days, weeks on end for some, and the pump
>> ultimately fails. Did the low fuel level cause the demise of the fuel
>> pump? Who knows. But the very small data pool that I have says that
>> habitual low fuel and fuel pump failures are related.
>>
>> If you can avoid a $150-ish part by doing nothing more than filling the
>> gas tank, why not do that?
>>
>> If you are in the habit of driving around with the fuel level very low,
>> then don't be alarmed that the pump fails. Just make the necessary
>> repair and move on.
>>
>> But the OP should sell the pump he has, and wait for the day that he
>> needs to replace a fuel pump and then go out and buy one.
>>
>> A windshield wiper motor and a fuel pump motor have little resembelence
>> to one another after you get past the motor part.
>
> since the fuel pump doesn't have wearing parts other than the motor
> component, the resemblance between both motor units is 100% relevant.
>
>
>> A fuel pump is a low
>> torque, high speed motor. The windshield wipers use a high torque, low
>> speed motor. A fuel pump directly pumps fuel, the windshield has a
>> reduction gear to mechanically increase the power of the mechanism.
>
> reduction gears mean that you can [and do] use a high speed low torque
> electric motor for the wipers.
>
>
>> The
>> fuel pump runs as long as the car is on, more or less, the wiper motor
>> runs much less. Apples and oranges....
>
> you've never been to oregon or washington state in the winter then - in
> their rainy season, there is 100% correlation between fuel pump hours and
> wiper motor hours.
>

There is nowhere on earth that a windshield wiper motor runs anywhere near
the duty cycle of a fuel pump motor. And, setting a windshield wiper motor
under a panel where it remains dry, filling it with grease where it remains
lubricated, and putting it behind a reduction gear where the mechanical
advantage can be leveraged makes it entirely different than a motor that is
submerged in gasoline where the lubricant is compromised, and the power of
the motor is not leveraged with reduction gears.

A wiper motor is mucl closer to a window motor than to a fuel pump motor,
although these motors are also quite different. The operating environment is
similar, although the duty cycle is not even close. Lots of stuff is
different, but the idea that the motors are located in dry locations instead
of wet ones is the same, the lubrication lasts for decades is the same,
there are reduction gear mechanisms which are similar, and so on.

The point being, a fuel pump motor lives in a hostile environment, and some
of the hostility is used to the benefit of the motor if the fuel levels are
kept high instead of being held low. The external presence of fuel
surrounding the motor has a cooling influence. If the fuel level is held low
for extended periods, the impact is that the motor runs hotter than it has
to if it is submerged, and this additional heat shortens the life of the
motor.

Perhaps the motor lasts 15 years instead of 20, or 7 years instead of 15,
whatever. I'm driving a car that was built 19 years ago, has 150,000 miles
on it, and the pump is the original. I keep the tank filled -- rather, when
the tank gets to E, I fill it instead of just putting in a few dollars-worth
of gas. In EVERY instance of fuel pump failure in cars of similar age as
mine, or younger, the drivers report they let the tank remain below 1/4 for
extended periods -- they drop in a few dollars-worth of gas to get to the
next day or day after then repeat.

Is keeping the tank filled a guarantee that the pump will never fail?
Probably not. But, why not fill the tank hoping to avoid early replacement
of a part that is typically $150-ish to purchase, and often requires the gas
tank to be removed from the car to replace?

On 03/24/2013 02:13 PM, uncle_vito wrote:
> "Paul Hovnanian P.E." > wrote in message
> ...
>> uncle_vito wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "muzician21" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Wondering what considerations there would be in storing a used
>>>>> electric fuel pump that likely has a fair number of miles left in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Wrap it in a plastic bag and put it in a box. Then hope that in 10 or 15
>>>> years, the next time you need a fuel pump, you have a car that takes the
>>>> same one that you wrapped in plastic and put in a box.
>>>>
>>>> You can get the longest life out of your fuel pump by keeping the gas
>>>> tank full.
>>>>
>>>> Gasoline acts as a heat sink, so if the tank runs to E and you put in
>>>> five-bucks, whatever, just to hold you till tomorrow, then tomorrow do
>>>> the same thing, and keep the tank near E most of the time, then there is
>>>> no gasoline to act as a heat sink, and the pump motor runs hot which
>>>> shortens its life.
>>>>
>>>> Keep the tank filled more than driving around with it empty, and you
>>>> will
>>>> have a fuel pump that lasts almost as long as the car.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Electric fuel pumps are DC since they are run off the 12 v battery and
>>> there
>>> is no external electronic circuitry to perform AC switching. That means
>>> there must be brushes and slip rings. I have always wondered how
>>> sparking
>>> does not ignite the fuel. Perhaps all is OK if the pump is totally
>>> submerged, but how about if you are running out of fuel. How do you
>>> prevent the pump from igniting the gas in the tank?
>>
>> Gasoline only ignites within a limited air-fuel mixture ratio. Too lean
>> or,
>> more likely in the fuel tank, too rich and it won't ignite.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Flammability
>>
>> This is even more the case in modern cars, where the fuel tank is not
>> vented
>> to the atmosphere but is a part of the vapor recovery system. There is
>> very
>> little oxygen in there. This is also good because gas goes bad faster
>> exposed to air (oxygen).
>>
>> --
>> Paul Hovnanian
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Time's fun when you're having flies. -- Kermit the Frog
>
> I hear all this reasoning but I also know that welders are very reluctant to
> weld fuel tanks. I had a tank out of a motor home and they insisted it be
> washed out completely with soapy water before he would weld on it.
>
> I also know of a person that was going to weld on a fuel tanker truck at a
> shop next door to where I was working. He put dry ice ( or something
> similar) in the tank the night before to remove all the oxygen. The tank
> blew up the next day as he was welding. He was instantly killed and body
> parts were found over at our place of business. Perhaps a welding torch is
> different that fuel pump commutation sparks, but why take any chance at
> creating a fire or explosion?
>
>

I've never heard of the dry ice trick, but I have seen people fill tanks
mostly full of water to displace all the vapor before welding. Seems
like a reasonable precaution, especially given your anecdote above.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 03/24/2013 06:32 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:33:53 -0500, AMuzi > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> If it's absolutely necessary, turn the thing so your work
>> area is up, fill with water as far as practicable, flash the
>> remainder with your torch before starting to clean or work
>> the area. Even soap or detergent with hot water will leave a
>> dangerous amount of flammable material in a tank and that is
>> effectively a bomb.
>>
>> I have leaded in a new bottom panel on a gas tank and that
>> was the excellent advice I was given by a guy who grew old
>> without blowing one up. That said, a new tank, where readily
>> available, is a very good idea.
>
> Just get a new tank. I had a '76 Impala with a leaky seam due to
> rust. I filled it with water and detergent 3 times, agitating and
> sloshing it pretty good. Probably spent a couple hours just doing
> that. Filled it a fourth time and had to tilt it to keep water from
> the seam. As soon I put torch and solder to it damn near blew my head
> off with the burst from the pump opening.
> Went to the boneyard and got a perfect tank for 25 bucks, already
> parted out.
> Bought a new Lumina tank last year due to rust.
> $99.99 at Autozone. I don't even think about putting heat on a gas
> tank anymore. I count that as one of my all-time stupid moves.
>
>

Good advice, but some of us still have cars where old parts are the only
parts available.

That said, when a better used or new part is available, replacement is
the sane choice.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:06:38 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
> wrote:


>
>Perhaps the motor lasts 15 years instead of 20, or 7 years instead of 15,
>whatever. I'm driving a car that was built 19 years ago, has 150,000 miles
>on it, and the pump is the original. I keep the tank filled -- rather, when
>the tank gets to E, I fill it instead of just putting in a few dollars-worth
>of gas. In EVERY instance of fuel pump failure in cars of similar age as
>mine, or younger, the drivers report they let the tank remain below 1/4 for
>extended periods -- they drop in a few dollars-worth of gas to get to the
>next day or day after then repeat.
>
>Is keeping the tank filled a guarantee that the pump will never fail?
>Probably not. But, why not fill the tank hoping to avoid early replacement
>of a part that is typically $150-ish to purchase, and often requires the gas
>tank to be removed from the car to replace?
>

Higher static head pressure probably eases the work the pump has to
do, and more gas in the tank provides a bigger heat sink.
So why not fill your tank when it hits 3/4 or 1/2 full?
In the end it probably won't make a difference that can be measured.
I don't buy the idea that running a car all the time with 1/4 tank is
the main cause of pump failure. They just wear out, and some are
built better than others, even the same pump model from the same
manufacturer. Lemons, or almost lemons.
First off, not many people don't fill up at the gas station. It's a
big waste of time continually putting only a few gallons in a gas
tank. I don't know anybody who does that. My son does, and in fact
he's put new pumps on their cars. But they were high mileage cars
anyway.
Secondly, I've had 2 pumps fail on GM cars at about 120k miles,
and the Lumina I'm junking has the original pump with 180k miles.
All were gassed up the same - basically when it falls below 1/4 tank,
fill it up. It's just initial quality of the pump.
Not saying to run the pump dry, but how much gas you keep in your tank
isn't something I'd ever worry about.
BTW, a typical GM pump runs about 2.5-3 bills at auto parts stores.
It's modular and comes with sending unit. You don't want to cheap out
and try replacing only the pump. High hassle and high failure rate.
Think I paid close to 5 bills when I had one replaced by a shop.
The ones I've done myself took 4-5 hours to do, steady, careful and
somewhat leisurely since there was no clock.
That's with jackstands and creeper.

"Vic Smith" > wrote in message
...
> The ones I've done myself took 4-5 hours to do, steady, careful and
> somewhat leisurely since there was no clock.
> That's with jackstands and creeper.
>
>

I like the redneck way. If you can do it, cut a hole in the trunk with a
jig saw, replace pump and put a piece of tin back over the hole with pop
rivits. Used to work on the freeze plugs also. Just use a hole saw from
the inside on the firewall.

"Ralph Mowery" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Vic Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The ones I've done myself took 4-5 hours to do, steady, careful and
>> somewhat leisurely since there was no clock.
>> That's with jackstands and creeper.
>>
>>
>
> I like the redneck way. If you can do it, cut a hole in the trunk with a
> jig saw, replace pump and put a piece of tin back over the hole with pop
> rivits. Used to work on the freeze plugs also. Just use a hole saw from
> the inside on the firewall.
>

just use a large jug for gasoline on the dash board with a rubber hose that
go to the carbo-rator, all gravity feed, no need for a stinkin pump anyway.

you guys.

store it in WD40...... like Grandma's undies......