This one has several good mechanics stumped

1995 Mitsubishi Galant, 2.4L inline 4-banger, 5-speed manual tranny
66,000 miles, one owner, one driver, always garaged
Not a commuter car until 2005. Was used mostly as a weekend runabout and a
few long-distance road trips here and there. Often sat unused for weeks at
a time. (Owner always drove company vehicles during the week . . . and
often the weekends, also)

Looks and runs like new still, except it suddenly started losing oil about a
month ago. This vehicle was extremely well maintained, well beyond
manufacturer recommendations. For just one example, oil changes were always
at (not exceeding) 3,000 miles. For the first ~10 years (weekend runabout)
conventional oil was used, 5W30 or 10W30. For the last year, it has been a
commuter, and oil is still changed every 3,000 miles, but now synthetic
blend 5W30 is used. Other maintenance done has all been expected,
"scheduled" stuff like tires, a battery, air filters, spark plugs, a couple
brake jobs, stuff like that.

EVERY 3,000 miles, the engine would "use" about 1/2 to 3/4 quart of oil
between 3,000 mile oil changes. (nothing odd)

Around mid-February, I checked the oil at around 1500 miles past last oil
change (synthetic blend 5W30) It was a half quart low. That didn't bother
me. The fact that it was PITCH BLACK did. That was unusual for this car.
Oil does get darker/discolored, but I've never seen it black before. Didn't
think too much about it. Dumped a half-quart of regular 10W30 in (what I
had handy). A week later (and another ~300 miles), I checked the oil again
and it was A FULL QUART LOW. Since that time, it has lost (for lack of a
better word) a full quart of oil every 250 miles.

Obviously there's a problem. Now here is what has the mechanics stumped.
Several good mechanics have looked at this car. These are the facts known
so far:

1) There are NO oil leaks. I confirmed this myself, but several mechanics
have had it up on the lift and can not find even a minor oil leak. I would
expect the underside of the car to be covered in oil if oil was leaking at a
rate of 1QT/250miles , but there's no oil at all down there, that anyone can
find. My garage floor is oil free. My parking spot at work is oil free.
2) There are no problem codes in the computer.
3) Car starts easily and runs well, but sometimes hesitates on acceleration
above about 2000RPM or so (that started around the same time that the
excessive oil consumption started)
4) Engine easily passed emissions test while losing oil. In fact, the
mechanic who tested emissions noticed the engine was again a full quart low,
and added oil.
5) Several (dry) compression tests have been run since oil started
disappearing. Numbers on all cylinders on all tests range from 190 - 195 (a
couple of 200 readings in there somewhere also). According to Mitsubishi,
this is good. According to all mechanics I have consulted, this is very
good. The last compression test done, I witnessed myself. I read the
gauges as (cylinders 1 - 4) 195 - 195 - 190 - 190. A "wet" compression test
was also done at one point, and I was told that it was GOOD, but don't
remember the readings. Other mechanics have told me that the wet test was
redundant anyway. (because the dry test looked good)
6) One mechanic told me that there's no oil inside the tailpipe. I guess
that's good?
7) Car has sat for several days (once) after excessive oil consumption
started. While sitting (not driven), it apparently lost no oil.
8) In desperation, one mechanic drained out the synthetic blend 5W30,
changed the oil filter, then refilled the engine with * 15W40 *
conventional oil. According to the Mitsubishi service manual, that is OK
for the engine (it'll take from 5W30 up to 20W50?, or somewhere there).
But, the thicker oil made no difference. The car still loses a quart of oil
every 250 miles, when driven.

To put it bluntly, where the HELL is the oil going? I'm kind of attached to
the car, so I'll throw money at it. But first I need to know what the
problem IS. I'm stumped. Several good mechanics are stumped. No rings or
valve problems, no oil leak, emissions good, exhaust not discolored, but oil
is disappearing at rate of 1 Quart every 250 miles. Is this a wierd
Mitsubishi quirk that none of my mechanics have heard of? That is, makes
oil disappear without burning it or leaking it???

Possibly leaking into the torque convertor or tranny?
What was the mechanics' take on the black oil?


"George K" > wrote in message
reenews.net...
> 1995 Mitsubishi Galant, 2.4L inline 4-banger, 5-speed manual tranny
> 66,000 miles, one owner, one driver, always garaged
> Not a commuter car until 2005. Was used mostly as a weekend runabout and
a
> few long-distance road trips here and there. Often sat unused for weeks
at
> a time. (Owner always drove company vehicles during the week . . . and
> often the weekends, also)
>
> Looks and runs like new still, except it suddenly started losing oil about
a
> month ago. This vehicle was extremely well maintained, well beyond
> manufacturer recommendations. For just one example, oil changes were
always
> at (not exceeding) 3,000 miles. For the first ~10 years (weekend
runabout)
> conventional oil was used, 5W30 or 10W30. For the last year, it has been
a
> commuter, and oil is still changed every 3,000 miles, but now synthetic
> blend 5W30 is used. Other maintenance done has all been expected,
> "scheduled" stuff like tires, a battery, air filters, spark plugs, a
couple
> brake jobs, stuff like that.
>
> EVERY 3,000 miles, the engine would "use" about 1/2 to 3/4 quart of oil
> between 3,000 mile oil changes. (nothing odd)
>
> Around mid-February, I checked the oil at around 1500 miles past last oil
> change (synthetic blend 5W30) It was a half quart low. That didn't
bother
> me. The fact that it was PITCH BLACK did. That was unusual for this car.
> Oil does get darker/discolored, but I've never seen it black before.
Didn't
> think too much about it. Dumped a half-quart of regular 10W30 in (what I
> had handy). A week later (and another ~300 miles), I checked the oil
again
> and it was A FULL QUART LOW. Since that time, it has lost (for lack of a
> better word) a full quart of oil every 250 miles.
>
> Obviously there's a problem. Now here is what has the mechanics stumped.
> Several good mechanics have looked at this car. These are the facts known
> so far:
>
> 1) There are NO oil leaks. I confirmed this myself, but several
mechanics
> have had it up on the lift and can not find even a minor oil leak. I
would
> expect the underside of the car to be covered in oil if oil was leaking at
a
> rate of 1QT/250miles , but there's no oil at all down there, that anyone
can
> find. My garage floor is oil free. My parking spot at work is oil free.
> 2) There are no problem codes in the computer.
> 3) Car starts easily and runs well, but sometimes hesitates on
acceleration
> above about 2000RPM or so (that started around the same time that the
> excessive oil consumption started)
> 4) Engine easily passed emissions test while losing oil. In fact, the
> mechanic who tested emissions noticed the engine was again a full quart
low,
> and added oil.
> 5) Several (dry) compression tests have been run since oil started
> disappearing. Numbers on all cylinders on all tests range from 190 - 195
(a
> couple of 200 readings in there somewhere also). According to Mitsubishi,
> this is good. According to all mechanics I have consulted, this is very
> good. The last compression test done, I witnessed myself. I read the
> gauges as (cylinders 1 - 4) 195 - 195 - 190 - 190. A "wet" compression
test
> was also done at one point, and I was told that it was GOOD, but don't
> remember the readings. Other mechanics have told me that the wet test was
> redundant anyway. (because the dry test looked good)
> 6) One mechanic told me that there's no oil inside the tailpipe. I guess
> that's good?
> 7) Car has sat for several days (once) after excessive oil consumption
> started. While sitting (not driven), it apparently lost no oil.
> 8) In desperation, one mechanic drained out the synthetic blend 5W30,
> changed the oil filter, then refilled the engine with * 15W40 *
> conventional oil. According to the Mitsubishi service manual, that is OK
> for the engine (it'll take from 5W30 up to 20W50?, or somewhere there).
> But, the thicker oil made no difference. The car still loses a quart of
oil
> every 250 miles, when driven.
>
> To put it bluntly, where the HELL is the oil going? I'm kind of attached
to
> the car, so I'll throw money at it. But first I need to know what the
> problem IS. I'm stumped. Several good mechanics are stumped. No rings
or
> valve problems, no oil leak, emissions good, exhaust not discolored, but
oil
> is disappearing at rate of 1 Quart every 250 miles. Is this a wierd
> Mitsubishi quirk that none of my mechanics have heard of? That is, makes
> oil disappear without burning it or leaking it???
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

George K wrote:
> 1995 Mitsubishi Galant, 2.4L inline 4-banger, 5-speed manual tranny
> 66,000 miles, one owner, one driver, always garaged
> Not a commuter car until 2005. Was used mostly as a weekend runabout and a
> few long-distance road trips here and there. Often sat unused for weeks at
> a time. (Owner always drove company vehicles during the week . . . and
> often the weekends, also)
>
> Looks and runs like new still, except it suddenly started losing oil about a
> month ago. This vehicle was extremely well maintained, well beyond
> manufacturer recommendations. For just one example, oil changes were always
> at (not exceeding) 3,000 miles. For the first ~10 years (weekend runabout)
> conventional oil was used, 5W30 or 10W30. For the last year, it has been a
> commuter, and oil is still changed every 3,000 miles, but now synthetic
> blend 5W30 is used. Other maintenance done has all been expected,
> "scheduled" stuff like tires, a battery, air filters, spark plugs, a couple
> brake jobs, stuff like that.
>
> EVERY 3,000 miles, the engine would "use" about 1/2 to 3/4 quart of oil
> between 3,000 mile oil changes. (nothing odd)
>
> Around mid-February, I checked the oil at around 1500 miles past last oil
> change (synthetic blend 5W30) It was a half quart low. That didn't bother
> me. The fact that it was PITCH BLACK did. That was unusual for this car.
> Oil does get darker/discolored, but I've never seen it black before. Didn't
> think too much about it. Dumped a half-quart of regular 10W30 in (what I
> had handy). A week later (and another ~300 miles), I checked the oil again
> and it was A FULL QUART LOW. Since that time, it has lost (for lack of a
> better word) a full quart of oil every 250 miles.
>
> Obviously there's a problem. Now here is what has the mechanics stumped.
> Several good mechanics have looked at this car. These are the facts known
> so far:
>
> 1) There are NO oil leaks. I confirmed this myself, but several mechanics
> have had it up on the lift and can not find even a minor oil leak. I would
> expect the underside of the car to be covered in oil if oil was leaking at a
> rate of 1QT/250miles , but there's no oil at all down there, that anyone can
> find. My garage floor is oil free. My parking spot at work is oil free.
> 2) There are no problem codes in the computer.
> 3) Car starts easily and runs well, but sometimes hesitates on acceleration
> above about 2000RPM or so (that started around the same time that the
> excessive oil consumption started)
> 4) Engine easily passed emissions test while losing oil. In fact, the
> mechanic who tested emissions noticed the engine was again a full quart low,
> and added oil.
> 5) Several (dry) compression tests have been run since oil started
> disappearing. Numbers on all cylinders on all tests range from 190 - 195 (a
> couple of 200 readings in there somewhere also). According to Mitsubishi,
> this is good. According to all mechanics I have consulted, this is very
> good. The last compression test done, I witnessed myself. I read the
> gauges as (cylinders 1 - 4) 195 - 195 - 190 - 190. A "wet" compression test
> was also done at one point, and I was told that it was GOOD, but don't
> remember the readings. Other mechanics have told me that the wet test was
> redundant anyway. (because the dry test looked good)
> 6) One mechanic told me that there's no oil inside the tailpipe. I guess
> that's good?
> 7) Car has sat for several days (once) after excessive oil consumption
> started. While sitting (not driven), it apparently lost no oil.
> 8) In desperation, one mechanic drained out the synthetic blend 5W30,
> changed the oil filter, then refilled the engine with * 15W40 *
> conventional oil. According to the Mitsubishi service manual, that is OK
> for the engine (it'll take from 5W30 up to 20W50?, or somewhere there).
> But, the thicker oil made no difference. The car still loses a quart of oil
> every 250 miles, when driven.
>
> To put it bluntly, where the HELL is the oil going? I'm kind of attached to
> the car, so I'll throw money at it. But first I need to know what the
> problem IS. I'm stumped. Several good mechanics are stumped. No rings or
> valve problems, no oil leak, emissions good, exhaust not discolored, but oil
> is disappearing at rate of 1 Quart every 250 miles. Is this a wierd
> Mitsubishi quirk that none of my mechanics have heard of? That is, makes
> oil disappear without burning it or leaking it???
========
========
When was the last time the spark plugs were changed?
Before or after you started to notice the oil consumption?


My suspicion...........
the oil is going out through the exhaust. The catalytic convertor
has so far
been able to contain the oil and burn it off without allowing it to
show up at
the tail pipe. If the compression tests are showing good, and the
techs doing
the tests haven't mentioned wet or fouled spark plugs,........I would
suspect
that the oil is going out through the vacume system, likely a PCV
concern.


My suggestion........
check the PCV valve.......see if the hose is oil soaked on the
inside. I would
also suggest pulling the induct hose off the throttle plate and see if
there's any
oil up around the throttle plate.


other than that.......I'm admitting I'm stumped too if your techs have
checked
everything else and it's all coming up good.



hopefully helpfull,
let us know.


~:~
MarshMonster
~tech~

ks wrote:
Possibly leaking into the torque convertor or tranny?
What was the mechanics' take on the black oil?

=====
=====
KS,
please detail how in the world the oil is going to leak into the
tranny?

(we'll let you slide on the torque convertor part......it's a manual
ks)


any whoooooo.......

would be interesting to here yer take on how the oil is getting in the
tranny.




~:~
MarshMonster
~:~

"George K" > wrote in message
reenews.net...
> 1995 Mitsubishi Galant, 2.4L inline 4-banger, 5-speed manual tranny
> 66,000 miles, one owner, one driver, always garaged
> Not a commuter car until 2005. Was used mostly as a weekend runabout and
> a few long-distance road trips here and there. Often sat unused for weeks
> at a time. (Owner always drove company vehicles during the week . . . and
> often the weekends, also)
>
> Looks and runs like new still, except it suddenly started losing oil about
> a month ago. This vehicle was extremely well maintained, well beyond
> manufacturer recommendations. For just one example, oil changes were
> always at (not exceeding) 3,000 miles. For the first ~10 years (weekend
> runabout) conventional oil was used, 5W30 or 10W30. For the last year, it
> has been a commuter, and oil is still changed every 3,000 miles, but now
> synthetic blend 5W30 is used. Other maintenance done has all been
> expected, "scheduled" stuff like tires, a battery, air filters, spark
> plugs, a couple brake jobs, stuff like that.
>
> EVERY 3,000 miles, the engine would "use" about 1/2 to 3/4 quart of oil
> between 3,000 mile oil changes. (nothing odd)
>
> Around mid-February, I checked the oil at around 1500 miles past last oil
> change (synthetic blend 5W30) It was a half quart low. That didn't
> bother me. The fact that it was PITCH BLACK did. That was unusual for
> this car. Oil does get darker/discolored, but I've never seen it black
> before. Didn't think too much about it. Dumped a half-quart of regular
> 10W30 in (what I had handy). A week later (and another ~300 miles), I
> checked the oil again and it was A FULL QUART LOW. Since that time, it
> has lost (for lack of a better word) a full quart of oil every 250 miles.
>
> Obviously there's a problem. Now here is what has the mechanics stumped.
> Several good mechanics have looked at this car. These are the facts known
> so far:
>
> 1) There are NO oil leaks. I confirmed this myself, but several
> mechanics have had it up on the lift and can not find even a minor oil
> leak. I would expect the underside of the car to be covered in oil if oil
> was leaking at a rate of 1QT/250miles , but there's no oil at all down
> there, that anyone can find. My garage floor is oil free. My parking
> spot at work is oil free.
> 2) There are no problem codes in the computer.
> 3) Car starts easily and runs well, but sometimes hesitates on
> acceleration above about 2000RPM or so (that started around the same time
> that the excessive oil consumption started)
> 4) Engine easily passed emissions test while losing oil. In fact, the
> mechanic who tested emissions noticed the engine was again a full quart
> low, and added oil.
> 5) Several (dry) compression tests have been run since oil started
> disappearing. Numbers on all cylinders on all tests range from 190 - 195
> (a couple of 200 readings in there somewhere also). According to
> Mitsubishi, this is good. According to all mechanics I have consulted,
> this is very good. The last compression test done, I witnessed myself. I
> read the gauges as (cylinders 1 - 4) 195 - 195 - 190 - 190. A "wet"
> compression test was also done at one point, and I was told that it was
> GOOD, but don't remember the readings. Other mechanics have told me that
> the wet test was redundant anyway. (because the dry test looked good)
> 6) One mechanic told me that there's no oil inside the tailpipe. I guess
> that's good?
> 7) Car has sat for several days (once) after excessive oil consumption
> started. While sitting (not driven), it apparently lost no oil.
> 8) In desperation, one mechanic drained out the synthetic blend 5W30,
> changed the oil filter, then refilled the engine with * 15W40 *
> conventional oil. According to the Mitsubishi service manual, that is OK
> for the engine (it'll take from 5W30 up to 20W50?, or somewhere there).
> But, the thicker oil made no difference. The car still loses a quart of
> oil every 250 miles, when driven.
>
> To put it bluntly, where the HELL is the oil going? I'm kind of attached
> to the car, so I'll throw money at it. But first I need to know what the
> problem IS. I'm stumped. Several good mechanics are stumped. No rings
> or valve problems, no oil leak, emissions good, exhaust not discolored,
> but oil is disappearing at rate of 1 Quart every 250 miles. Is this a
> wierd Mitsubishi quirk that none of my mechanics have heard of? That is,
> makes oil disappear without burning it or leaking it???
>
>
Most likely cause of the oil consumption is worn valve seals. You can try
this easy test. With the engine fully warmed up let it idle for around 15 -
20 minutes, then bring the rpm's up quickly ( around 3000 rpm ) and look for
blue smoke from the exhaust. If blue smoke is present in the exhaust you
need to replace the leaking valve seals. This is a common problem on Mitsu's
but usually occurs around the 100,000 mile mark. I would suspect the valve
seals are dried out from the car sitting for so long.

Mike wrote:

> Most likely cause of the oil consumption is worn valve seals. You can try
> this easy test. With the engine fully warmed up let it idle for around 15 -
> 20 minutes, then bring the rpm's up quickly ( around 3000 rpm ) and look for
> blue smoke from the exhaust. If blue smoke is present in the exhaust you
> need to replace the leaking valve seals. This is a common problem on Mitsu's
> but usually occurs around the 100,000 mile mark. I would suspect the valve
> seals are dried out from the car sitting for so long.

Or start it cold in the morning and look for same bluish smoke after
reving the engine once quickly. Smoke should go away well within a
half minute if the culprit is valve seals.

Mike, do you find specifically that the exaust valve seals deteriorate
in the area of the rubber coating inside the seal that make them fit
snug over the valve guide (i.e. not the seal lip)?

Toyota MDT in MO

"Comboverfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mike wrote:
>
>> Most likely cause of the oil consumption is worn valve seals. You can
>> try
>> this easy test. With the engine fully warmed up let it idle for around
>> 15 -
>> 20 minutes, then bring the rpm's up quickly ( around 3000 rpm ) and look
>> for
>> blue smoke from the exhaust. If blue smoke is present in the exhaust you
>> need to replace the leaking valve seals. This is a common problem on
>> Mitsu's
>> but usually occurs around the 100,000 mile mark. I would suspect the
>> valve
>> seals are dried out from the car sitting for so long.
>
> Or start it cold in the morning and look for same bluish smoke after
> reving the engine once quickly. Smoke should go away well within a
> half minute if the culprit is valve seals.
>
> Mike, do you find specifically that the exaust valve seals deteriorate
> in the area of the rubber coating inside the seal that make them fit
> snug over the valve guide (i.e. not the seal lip)?
>
> Toyota MDT in MO
>

No, they are still a tight fit over the guide. The seal lip hardens and
loses it's elasticity, sometimes even cracking. From my experience this is
almost always caused by lack of oil changes when it occurs at such a low
mileage. If the vehicle is well maintained they generally last well over
100,000 miles.

In article ews.net>,
"George K" > wrote:

>To put it bluntly, where the HELL is the oil going? I'm kind of attached to
>the car, so I'll throw money at it. But first I need to know what the
>problem IS. I'm stumped. Several good mechanics are stumped. No rings or
>valve problems, no oil leak, emissions good, exhaust not discolored, but oil
>is disappearing at rate of 1 Quart every 250 miles. Is this a wierd
>Mitsubishi quirk that none of my mechanics have heard of? That is, makes
>oil disappear without burning it or leaking it???

Wild guess: check the radiator for oil.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

"ks" > wrote in message news:0a1Wf.15245$K11.541@clgrps12...
> Possibly leaking into the torque convertor or tranny?
> What was the mechanics' take on the black oil?
>

One mechanic thought that gasoline was in the oil, but that was just one
opinion, and contradicted by other mechanics. I'm not a mechanic. But, if
oil was leaking into torque converter or tranny, wouldn't either place be
over full by now? At some point, I imagine that the oil would escape the
car completely, or the car would stop "losing" oil. I forgot to mention
earlier that two new PCV valves have been installed since the engine started
losing oil. The PCV valve was probably good to begin with, but it was
changed a couple times anyway.

>> To put it bluntly, where the HELL is the oil going? I'm kind of attached
>> to
>> the car, so I'll throw money at it. But first I need to know what the
>> problem IS. I'm stumped. Several good mechanics are stumped. No rings
>> or
>> valve problems, no oil leak, emissions good, exhaust not discolored, but
>> oil
>> is disappearing at rate of 1 Quart every 250 miles. Is this a wierd
>> Mitsubishi quirk that none of my mechanics have heard of? That is, makes
>> oil disappear without burning it or leaking it???
> ========
> ========
> When was the last time the spark plugs were changed?
> Before or after you started to notice the oil consumption?
>
>
> My suspicion...........
> the oil is going out through the exhaust. The catalytic convertor
> has so far
> been able to contain the oil and burn it off without allowing it to
> show up at
> the tail pipe. If the compression tests are showing good, and the
> techs doing
> the tests haven't mentioned wet or fouled spark plugs,........I would
> suspect
> that the oil is going out through the vacume system, likely a PCV
> concern.
>
>
> My suggestion........
> check the PCV valve.......see if the hose is oil soaked on the
> inside. I would
> also suggest pulling the induct hose off the throttle plate and see if
> there's any
> oil up around the throttle plate.
>
>
> other than that.......I'm admitting I'm stumped too if your techs have
> checked
> everything else and it's all coming up good.
>

I forgot to mention earlier . . . since the oil started disappearing (for
lack of a better word), the PCV valve has been checked a few times. It was
apparently good, but it was replaced anyway (twice), because the mechanics
were desperate to try anything. The spark plugs were changed JUST before
the car started losing oil (about a week or two before, roughly). They've
been inspected a few times since the oil loss started. The plugs are not
wet or fouled. I don't know if the throttle plate has been checked.