HOV lane behavior...

"Garth Almgren" > wrote in message
...


>
>> Which basically reduces to: let 'em speed, right?
>
> Nope. It reduces to "Let them drive *legally* at a speed that most
> everyone finds to be a comfortable and safe speed."

.... And the speed they will drive regardless of what the number on the sign
says.

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:

> >And you are under no obligation to match the speed of the fastest
> >vehicle in the lane.
>
> CA VC 21654 says you're wrong.

"except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the
same direction"

You're passing a heluva lot of cars if the main lines are going 30 mph
slower. It never says anything about needing to excessively slow (or
stop) to let someone past.

And please, find one judge on earth who feels the fastest car on the
road is "the normal speed of traffic".

Since it's become an online ****ing match, I know you'll never admit
you're wrong about this one, but you are. The HOV lanes are not
considered part of the normal roadway, and the laws you've cited aren't
helping your case.

Dave

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> On 26 May 2005 09:59:37 -0700, wrote:
> >Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> >
> >> The purpose of the HOV lane is to reward drivers of low pollution/high
> >> efficiency vehicles by letting them travel on the highway unimpeded.
> >> Having some inconsiderate Sloth blocking the road defeats the whole
> >> purpose of having an HOV lane.
> >
> >Incorrect on its very face. HOV stands for "high occupancy vehicle."
> >Its purpose has nothing to do with rewarding drivers of low-polluting
> >or high efficiency vehicles. Its purpose is to give free-flowing capacity
> >to drivers who have two or sometimes three or more people per vehicle,
> >to reduce the number of vehicles on the system.
>
> WRONG.

Umm, Scott, *not* wrong. H-O-V. "High-Occupancy Vehicle." That *is*
the primary purpose of the facility, by its very name, funding and
usage. You can't deny this and think you will still be taken
seriously.

> The law also allows solo motorcyclists and solo drivers of
> electric or alternative fuel vehicles to use the HOV lanes.

And if you had not deleted the rest of my paragraph you quoted above,
your attempt at disingenuousness would have been only slightly more
bald-faced. I also wrote: "Rules in many places allow low-polluting
or hybrid type vehicles also to use them." Don't point out
something to me as if I hadn't already said it.

Besides, the incidental usage of the *HOV* lane by other permitted
vehicles does not negate the high-occupancy vehicle as the primary
usage. The state would not have built a special lane only for hybrid
cars or low-polluting vehicles or for motorcycles. C'mon. The fact
that the state allows the excess capacity of the *HOV* lane to be used
by non-HOV users does not elevate the hybrid to the level of primary
purpose of the lane.

> >And you are under no obligation to match the speed of the fastest
> >vehicle in the lane.
>
> CA VC 21654 says you're wrong.

Oh, really? Care to cite the language that you think would do that?
It's a classic KRETP law.

Your argument is wrong on three counts.

One, nothing in it requires every other driver to speed up to match the
fastest driver. Nothing. It says you have to move to the right lane if
you are not passing. It doesn't say you have to move to the right if
someone behind you wants to go faster.

Two, assuming for a second that this is still an HOV facility we're
talking about, unless its two lanes in the same direction, KRETP has no
application. Laws typically regard the left-most GP lane as the passing
lane; an HOV facility that might be to the left of that is a separate
roadway with its own rules. It is silly to assert, as your argument
leads to, that a car-pooler *must* exit the HOV lane and return to the
right GP lane if it so happens there are few cars to his right in the
GP lanes. Yet that is what you're saying by interpreting the CA
statute as affecting HOV lanes.

Three, in any case, you *are* in the act of passing almost continuously
in most HOV lanes I've seen. So KRETP isn't in play; you *are*
passing. And you are under no legal obligation to drive 90 if the guy
behind you wants to go 90.

> >If someone behind you wants to do 90, he just has
> >to wait until he can.
>
> That's a MFFY attitude.

Hardly. It's more obvious that your attitude is MFFY. You expect
people doing 75 to get out of your way if you want to do 90. World
don't work that way. If I'm already ahead of you, I am not MF; I
was already there in the normal course of driving. It's you who wants
to push your way ahead with a MFFY attitude.

> >Courtesy cuts both ways. An HOV driver is
> >entitled to use of the lane at 65 and doesn't have to bail out to let
> >you go 90.
>=20
> CA VC 21654 says you're wrong.

Nope. Says you're wrong.

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On 26 May 2005 10:19:38 -0700, wrote:
>
>>> Slower Traffic Keep Right still applies.
>>
>> Not in the case of an HOV lane. Statutes in my state, at least (and
>> this stuff is usually boilerplate from state to state) sets the
>> farthest left GP lane as the left-most lane, ignoring the HOV lane.
>> It operates as a separate system for purposes of KRETP.
>
> Cite.
>
> In CA, CVC 21654 makes no exceptions for users of the HOV lane.

Here are a couple pictures which clearly show that the HOV lanes on I-405
are a separate facility from the GP lanes. Yellow lines indicate separate
streams of traffic.

http://www.firstbaptistwestallis.org...040805-015.jpg
http://www.firstbaptistwestallis.org...040805-016.jpg

The HOV and GP lanes are two separate facilities. KRETP cannot be used
between the two. Motorists are NOT free to move right into the GP lanes
when they are done passing, the double yellow lines forbid this.

--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer; New Berlin, WI
www.midwestroads.com
*remove all numbers and caps to reply*

Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 23:27:52 -0500, "brink" >
> wrote:

>> that's why i don't think the "you must *always* let faster traffic
>> pass" mantra just can't apply so dogmatically in HOV lanes...
>> because in this scenario the guy who's doing 80 MPH needs to cut
>> into the 25 MPH traffic to let the 90 MPH guy by.
>
> So speed up to 90. What usually ends up happening is you catch up to
> the Sloth in front of you, forcing to to slow down anyway. However, at
> least YOU were not the asshole.

Here's a situation for you: The HOV lane is pretty much deserted. I'm
driving 100 mph. (which I would readily do, if not for fear of a speeding
ticket) I just pass one of the zones that allows crossovers between HOV and
GP lanes. The next one is in 3 miles. But little do I know, there is a
Lamborghini driving 200 mph in the HOV lane, but he's two miles behind me.
I could not see him because of the geometry of the road. So two miles
later, he catches me, but I'm still a mile from the next crossover. I'd
speed up, but 105 mph is the fastest my Cavalier will go. Was I wrong to be
in the HOV lane? Should I have left it clear in case someone doing 200 mph
needed to use it?

--
Craig Holl
Mechanical Engineer; New Berlin, WI
www.midwestroads.com
*remove all numbers and caps to reply*

Craig Holl wrote:
> Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 May 2005 23:27:52 -0500, "brink" >
> > wrote:
>
> >> that's why i don't think the "you must *always* let faster traffic
> >> pass" mantra just can't apply so dogmatically in HOV lanes...
> >> because in this scenario the guy who's doing 80 MPH needs to cut
> >> into the 25 MPH traffic to let the 90 MPH guy by.
> >
> > So speed up to 90. What usually ends up happening is you catch up to
> > the Sloth in front of you, forcing to to slow down anyway. However, at
> > least YOU were not the asshole.
>
> Here's a situation for you: The HOV lane is pretty much deserted. I'm
> driving 100 mph. (which I would readily do, if not for fear of a speeding
> ticket) I just pass one of the zones that allows crossovers between HOV =
and
> GP lanes. The next one is in 3 miles. But little do I know, there is a
> Lamborghini driving 200 mph in the HOV lane, but he's two miles behind me.
> I could not see him because of the geometry of the road. So two miles
> later, he catches me, but I'm still a mile from the next crossover. I'd
> speed up, but 105 mph is the fastest my Cavalier will go. Was I wrong to=
be
> in the HOV lane? Should I have left it clear in case someone doing 200 m=
ph
> needed to use it?

If it's a Countach I would pull off onto the shoulder, because only
posers drive Countaches, so the driver is probably an accident waiting
to happen. If it's a Miura SV, I would probably be too busy drooling
on my shirt and wetting myself to think clearly, so I can't tell you
what I'd do in that situation

nate

Craig Holl wrote:

> Here's a situation for you: The HOV lane is pretty much deserted. I'm
> driving 100 mph. (which I would readily do, if not for fear of a speeding
> ticket) I just pass one of the zones that allows crossovers between HOV and
> GP lanes. The next one is in 3 miles. But little do I know, there is a
> Lamborghini driving 200 mph in the HOV lane, but he's two miles behind me.

The problem with your scenario is that there is almost no chance of that
happening. What is far more common is someone driving 65 to 70 mph with
someone catching up to them with a 25 to 30 mph differential tops (the
differential will be typcially around 15 to 20 mph at most).

Given the road geometry of most interstates someone going 30 miles
faster than you will be spotted about 15 seconds in advance. Someone
going 15 mph faster will be spotted 30 seconds in advance. In either
case, it gives the person in front plenty of time to make a decision.

Many times, I'll hear the argument that the person in front is going as
fast as he feels safe to do. I don't believe that for a minute. I, for
one, rarely drive as fast as I possibly can on an interstate. Even if
I'm going 85 to 90 mph, I can speed up by 25 mph for short periods of
time if needed. This would indicate that I'm driving at least 25 mph
slower than I could be going if I was driving as fast as I possibly could.

This would indicate that someone going 70 mph could easily speed up to
85 mph for short periods of time when needed.

Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> On 26 May 2005 10:06:13 -0700, wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Scott en Aztl=E1n wrote:
> >> On 25 May 2005 21:26:19 -0700, "Dave" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >Keep right except to pass doesn't apply since its a special lane.
> >> >>
> >> >> I just *love* how people make up rules to suit themselves...
> >> >
> >> >How do you keep left in one lane?
> >>
> >> Slower Traffic Keep Right still applies. If you can't keep the pace,
> >> stay out of the race.
> >
> >Keep the pace with whom?
>
> With the normal speed of traffic, of course.

Normal speed of traffic is 25, or less.

In fact, in the HOV lane, normal speed is about 60-70mph.

> >If all the lanes to your right are fully of
> >25mph traffic, and some assclown rides up on you going 80 (in a 65,)
> >are you supposed to make way just because he's got a passenger?
>
> If you're blocking him, YOU are the assclown.

I'm passing. And since there's no room to get over, I'm not blocking
anything.

> >I'm passing. When there's a clear space to my right, and it's safe to
> >get over, I'll do it. But not at 80.
>
> MFFY.

Heh. I'm not going to be unsafe because someone else has decided to
run up on my tail.

> >> No, the best idea is for drivers to maintain the common speed of
> >> traffic. The pricks are the ones who drive slow and block everybody
> >> else.
> >
> >Common speed is 25.
>
> Not in the HOV lane it ain't, you disingenuous MFFY Sloth.

The use of the word disingenous is ironic, considering your partial
quote.

I'm passing. Which means I'm following the law.

E=2EP.

wrote:

> Heh. I'm not going to be unsafe because someone else has decided to
> run up on my tail.

Are you saying that you're driving so fast that you have no margin for
error and going any faster will result in an inevitable crash?

Arif Khokar wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Heh. I'm not going to be unsafe because someone else has decided to
> > run up on my tail.
>
> Are you saying that you're driving so fast that you have no margin for
> error and going any faster will result in an inevitable crash?

It has nothing to do with speed, but the spacing of traffic in the GP
lanes. Scott would have me speed up to find a spot to get over,
increasing the speed differential between me and cars to my right.
It's not like this has never happened to me before - I tried it his way
a few times. It's just plain doesn't work, and causes a dangerous
situation.

I am still complying with the law - I'm passing.

E.P.