Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards OR Defying the Laws of Physics

In article >, Nate Nagel wrote:

> The truth, of course, is that I can drive my 19 year old car for a
> decade or more on the energy it would take to produce any new car,
> efficient or not. So this whole discussion is irrelevant to me anyway.

We may see a return of attempts to outlaw old cars and vehicle scrappage
programs to 'save the environment'. It doesn't have to make sense, it
only has to make someone money or make someone more powerful.

Nate Nagel wrote:

> Scott in SoCal wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:12:07 -0600,
> > (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article >,
> >>Scott in SoCal > wrote:
> >>
> >>>Also, if diesel fuel is so superior, how come nobody makes a
> >>>DIESEL-electric hybrid?
> >>
> >>They do. They put them in railroad locomotives.
> >
> >
> > Those aren't the same sort of hybrids. Diesel-electric locomotives
> > have no batteries; the diesel prime mover runs a generator which
> > directly powers the electric traction motors. There are plans,
> > however, to design a true hybrid locomotive with storage batteries and
> > regenerative braking.
> >
> > Adding batteries to locomotives will be a HUGE win, as they will be
> > able to take advantage of regenerative braking (right now, the kinetic
> > energy of a train going downhill is dissipated as waste heat). Dunno
> > why they waited so long to do it, but at least they're working on it
> > now.
>
> Really? I knew about the heat dissipation/electric braking, but the
> last time I took a serious look at railroads in an engineering sense was
> over a decade or so. I figured in the intervening years someone would
> have thought to incorporate regen braking as the weight issues due to
> the batteries would be much less serious than in a passenger car due to
> scaling and indeed, more weight over the drive wheels might actually be
> a plus in some situations.

It's easy to incorporate regenerative braking in electric trains by
returning the electricity generated to the supply. This is widely done in
Europe where many lines are electrified.

Graham

On Dec 30, 9:10*am, Nate Nagel > wrote:
> Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
> > In News ,, Eeyore at
> > , typed this:
>
> >>Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
>
> >>>Eeyore typed this:
>
> >>>>Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:
>
> >>>>>Eeyore at typed this:
>
> >>>>>>Kurt Lochner wrote:
>
> AKA sniveled ineptly:
>
> >>>>>>>>So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
> >>>>>>>>average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
> >>>>>>>>and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
> >>>>>>>>I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.
>
> >>>>>>I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> >>>>>>staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car
> >>>>>>that could happily tootle along at 80-90mph, nip past obstructive
> >>>>>>drivers in old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles
> >>>>>>on a gallon of diesel.
> >>>>>>http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
>
> >>>>>>OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
>
> >>>>>>Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an
> >>>>>>irrational fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine
> >>>>>>design is making even SPORTY diesels possible. They have
> >>>>>>exceptional torque which most drivers like too.
>
> >>>>>How well do they operate at -30 degrees Fahrenheit?
>
> >>>>I have NO idea.
>
> >>>That's rather important for people living in my area.
>
> >>>>How well do YOU work at -30 F ( -34C) ?
>
> >>>Not well, which is why I need a reliable car at that temperature.
> >>>In the past, Diesels have not proven reliable in the Winter.
>
> >>I've never experienced such temps but the Swedes for example use block
> >>warmers. I imagine you can have a fuel tank warmer too.
>
> >>Graham
>
> > Why would I go to that problem and added energy expense/expenditure when I
> > can just buy a reliable non-Diesel car?
>
> Because Graham is one of those arrogant Brits that has all the right
> answers, and anyone that disagrees with him is an idiot.
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hey, Nate.

These aren't your dads Diesels.
Also, gasoline engines can be more economical.
This seems to be just a rehash of the crap that came out of detroit
when CAFE came int exiastancde a couple of decades ago. Much of what
is being said is just a re-hash of what I heard / read back then -
before the went ahead and did what they said couldn't be done.
How much HP does a car AC compresor use? Ever hear of a Servel fridge?
They might adapt that system and save a bit during your hot summer.
AFAIK, it's never been tried. How many untried ideas are floating
around out there, waiting to be pulled out of the drawer?? KDH

On Dec 30, 6:33 am, Eeyore >
wrote:
> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> > Eeyore wrote:
> > > Kurt Lochner wrote:
> > > > AKA sniveled ineptly:
>
> > > > > So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
> > > > > average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
> > > > > and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
> > > > > I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.
>
> > > I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> > > staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car that
> > > could happily tootle along at 80-90mph, nip past obstructive drivers in
> > > old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a gallon of
> > > diesel.
> > >http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
>
> > > OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
>
> > > Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an irrational
> > > fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine design is making even
> > > SPORTY diesels possible. They have exceptional torque which most drivers
> > > like too.
>
> > In my area, finding a gas station where diesel is sold is a challenge.
>
> In the UK, typically all pumps deliver diesel. Our pumps are normally
> 'multi-fuel' types. You select which one you want by pressing a button or
> picking up the appropriate hose. This is simple stuff and has been do-able for
> decades. Indeed it HAS been done for decades in Europe and elsewhere.
>
> In this picture you can see 2 green hoses for example. One will be 95 octane
> unleaded and the other 98 octane. Diesel comes down a black hose.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7021021.stm
>
> In some European countries diesel cars represent the majority of new car
> sales. Their economy is undeniable. Their performance is daily improving.
>
> Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Once in a while I would have reason to say to myself,
"A Ford diesel passed through here recently."
Sure enough, in most cases I would come upon one soon thereafter. This
was only with Fords.
Did they ever crush those insult to Dr Diesel?

Have they ever fixed thoase critters?

On Dec 30, 10:36*am, Scott in SoCal > wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:33:41 +0000, Eeyore
>
> > wrote:
> >In some European countries diesel cars represent the majority of new car
> >sales. Their economy is undeniable. Their performance is daily improving.
>
> In the USA, diesel fuel costs more than gasoline. This wasn't always
> the case, which accounts for the initial surge of popularity for
> diesel-powered cars in the US back during the mid 1970s. Nowadays,
> diesel costs even more than premium gasoline, so where's the advantage
> of a diesel-powered car?
>
> Also, if diesel fuel is so superior, how come nobody makes a
> DIESEL-electric hybrid?

In the MPG rating, typically higher in Diesels.

On Dec 30, 10:53*am, Scott in SoCal > wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:23:12 -0800, The Ghost In The Machine
>
> > wrote:
> >The solution, of course, is to shrink the car and use
> >lighter materials. *Ideally, every family of 2 kids
> >under driving age (around 16-18 years) would have three
> >cars:
>
> >- his car, which would be a tiny 1-seater with very high
> > *fuel efficiency, optimized for commuting, and just
> > *big enough to hold a briefcase and a cup of coffee.[*]
>
> Even better, his car could be a commuter train. Having one fewer car
> would save the average family thousands of dollars per year in
> insurance, maintenance, and fuel costs.
>
> >- her car, which would be a 1 to 3-seater with not quite
> > *as high fuel efficiency but which can carry a week's
> > *worth of groceries; it can also be used to pick up
> > *and drop off kids from various functions, although
> > *ideally the kids would use bicycles instead or just walk,
> > *as both are healthier, if less safe in some neighborhoods,
> > *depending on the age of said kids (obviously babies
> > *crawling to the day care center or to Grandma gets
> > *ridiculous, but there's a line somewhere).
>
> For me the line was drawn the first day of Kindergarten. My Mom walked
> with me the first day to show me the route; I walked by myself from
> that day on. In 5th grade we moved and I started taking the "L" to
> school. Not until I was in high school and I bought my own car did I
> ever get a ride to school in an automobile.
>
> >- the family car, which would be a 4-seater primarily
> > *intended for long trips and family outings, and it
> > *sits in the garage most days.
>
> When I was growing up, the family car (a 4-door sedan) was our ONLY
> car. My dad took the train to work, I walked to school, and my Mom
> stayed home. Many things were within walking distance, including a
> small neighborhood grocery store, so unless it was the big weekly
> shopping trip the car sat unused most of the time.

I've always lived within an easy walk of the shops.
Even now, at 65++ / OAP, I enjoy walking the 1/2 mile or so to the
distress sale store. Unfortunatly no 99cent / pound shop nearby, but
everything else is. I use my 1964 car two or three times a week.
Picking the right home is also benificial to fuel saving.

V-for-Vendicar wrote:

> The claim was that 35 MPG would require a violation of thermodynamics.

By a complete IDIOT ?

Graham

What Me Worry? wrote:

> When gasoline hits $10/gallon, the market for SUV's will approach
> zero,

In Europe gasoline is already that price and 'SUVs' are still selling well.


> while buyers for the 300MPG hybrids (ready for production right now)
> will be on a 2-year waiting list.

There is no 300 mpg hybrid.

STOP LYING.

Graham

"Brent P" > wrote in message
...
> In article > , What Me
> Worry? wrote:
>>
>> "Brent P" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >, V-for-Vendicar
>>> wrote:
>>>>
> wrote
>>>>> "The efficiency of an internal combustion engine is
>>>>> based on total energy of the fuel and the amount of
>>>>> energy used to perform useful work. So by
>>>>> legislating a fuel efficiency increase of about 40%,
>>>>> our Congress Critters were attempting to rewrite Laws
>>>>> of Thermodynamics."
>>>>
>>>> Over 30 teams from the U.S., Canada, India and Bahrain participated in
>>>> the
>>>> SAE's annual mileage competition June 7-8, 2007 in Marshall, Michigan.
>>>> The
>>>> competition requires the development and construction of a single
>>>> person,
>>>> fuel efficient vehicle. All vehicles must be powered by a small
>>>> four-cycle
>>>> engine, have a minimum of three wheels, and the driver must be fully
>>>> enclosed to prevent contact with the ground. The winner is based on a
>>>> combination of best fuel economy and points from technical inspections
>>>> of
>>>> the vehicles. The 2006 winner, the University of British Columbia,
>>>> achieved
>>>> a record 3,145 miles per gallon!
>>>
>>> These vehicles are completely irrelevant to anything useful for
>>> transportation on public roads.
>>
>> The point is made: 40% increase in fuel efficiency standards isn't even
>> coming close to maximum theoretical efficiency. It's a pitiful increase,
>> which has already been achieved in production vehicles today (they'll
>> just
>> have to stop making the inefficient vehicles - problem solved).
>
> I'm sorry you don't understand basic engineering, but there is no such
> point to be made with that example.

See below where I **** all over your arrogance, asshole.

> These SAE supermilage vehicles
> represent nothing as far as hidden technology.

Hidden? Point to where anyone suggested "hidden" technologies in this
thread.

> They simply weigh very
> little, minimize drag in all forms, and are run in such a manner to
> maximize fuel economy

That is the formula for the 300 MPG hybrid that is in production *right
now*.

http://www.aptera.com/

Why not tell us how the Aptera guys "don't understand basic engineering."
That should be worth a laugh.

>>> They are as I recall a recombent bicycle with an ICE that runs at full
>>> throttle and then coasts, rinse and repeat.
>
>> Well, they sure as hell aren't Hummer H2's, that's for sure. So sorry if
>> that ****es off the irresponsible and the stupid; but automobiles are
>> gonna
>> change - finally - to MUCH more fuel-efficient designs. By orders of
>> magnitude. When gasoline hits $10/gallon, the market for SUV's will
>> approach
>> zero, while buyers for the 300MPG hybrids (ready for production right
>> now)
>> will be on a 2-year waiting list.
>
> I know you control freaks think that the only reason a honda civic
> doesn't get 5,000mpg is a lack of motivational legislation

You're quite obviously a raving conspiracist or something. We're talking
about engineering, and you're all "it's a liberal conspiracy."

> you're wrong. SAE supermilage competition has less to do with real life
> driving than me commuting to work on my bicycle.

I see. So you're saying that just because *those exact cars* on *that
particular course* aren't going into production at GM, that we can't learn
anything from the research. Isn't that what you're saying, loser?

Please respond so I can tear your argument limb from limb. Again. Asshole.

"Eeyore" > wrote in message
...
>
> What Me Worry? wrote:
>
>> When gasoline hits $10/gallon, the market for SUV's will approach
>> zero,
>
> In Europe gasoline is already that price and 'SUVs' are still selling
> well.

Is Europe the United States?

>> while buyers for the 300MPG hybrids (ready for production right now)
>> will be on a 2-year waiting list.

> There is no 300 mpg hybrid.

http://www.aptera.com/

Better tell Aptera that their car doesn't exist. They're already selling
'em!

> STOP LYING.

Apologize for being a f*cking moron.