sim racing is dead

NR2003 still has 200-400 players on weeknights, and weekends are a
little busier. I can always find good, fun and competitive races with
that game whenever I hook up the wheel.

Yup David, no shortage of hits and downloads at rFactorcentral . com


Everyone please DONATE if you can
(before you ask, yes every month or two)

==--==

"Dave F" > wrote in message
. ..
> "timmy thompson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> that is a sad fact
>
> www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual
> visitors every day.
>
>
> --
> David G Fisher
>
>

> LSI

You later explained you meant ISI. The basis for most of the current sims.
My biggest complaint is the lack of tire noises in the replays. Even
budget arcade racers like Ford Racing 2 have tire noises in their replays.

> ok, I was joking around but you pretty much disquallified yerself from having any rational posts about if NR guys have
> a jobs or life, as you have conceeded that by your terms, nobody online gaming has a life except Quake gamers (LOL).

rFactor online races normally don't take 1/2 hour per race, at least the few
races I've done online. That's the issue with ovals, it takes a lot of laps
before differences in talent show up, which is time consuming.

Then again, there were a few years where they ran a once a year event with
Grand Prix Legends, 1000km at NordSchleife in Grand Prix Legends, that's
44 laps at around 8 minutes per lap (for the fast guys), with a required total
of 40 minutes of break time, so the event lasted almost 7 hours even for the
better players. It was reported that no divorces occurred from this event.

> Ok I know NR doesnt need a defender... So I wont jump on and stop you with the parrotheaded thoughts of "ARCADE"
> goddam if that dont = DEGATONA aids enabled racing as you can get...

When I did check out NR2003 online open servers, most of the 300 or so players
were running DEGATONA events, 1/2 hour per race, and with assists on, the
key was qualifying, avoiding wrecks, and working with a group or getting
lucking on pit exits to end up getting back into the draft. Personally I
would prefer the other players to be using assists, to reduce the crash
fest factor.

It's my opinion that the DEGATONA with assists on, no talent required, a
chance that almost anyone can win is what draws the most of the 300 players
I saw online. There were very few running Watkins Glen, and fewer still
that could run 1:14's (if I'm remembering the times correctly).

> arcade

OK, someone has to defend the arcade racers games.

I play both arcade and simulation type racing game and enjoy both. Few players
complain about reality with first person shooter games, and I feel the
same way about racing games, I like both types. Realism is limited as there
is no feel. If I want realisim, I can head down to a local indoor gokart
track (k1speed). Those karts pull well over 1 g in the turns, the pace is
very quick, and drifting them is key to getting good lap times, and a lot of
fun, but's it cost more than a buck a lap, and the laps go quick, about
22 to 23 seconds per lap (for me, the top guys are about 1 second faster).
Still it's cheaper than taking a real car to a track and having to buy
a second set of wheels and tires.

> Especially when you download step by step cheats or books that have these
> cheats placed there by the authors that NOBODY knows about until they tell
> you...

The cheat codes aren't used for online racing. Some players use trainers,
but this is outright cheating, as with any game.

The arcade games require skill, but a different kind of skill. The
main differences are that it's impossible or nearly so to power oversteer
a car in most of the arcade racers, although some of them (like
Ford Racing 2 in advanced mode), are more realistic, and you can spin
the cars, and lock up the brakes. It's really not much diferent than sim
games with some or most assists on. The other difference for some arcade
games is the grip level (high), and the pace (quick).

Note that the go-karts at that indoor track have similar limitations.
If you hang out the rear end too far, the computer in the kart cuts
out power to the engine, to prevent a full power head on into a barrier
after a spin. To avoid heavy collisions from getting rear ended, the
brakes are limited to about 1/3rd g, (note that the cars pull well
over 1 g in the turns).

Some of the Need For Speed games do involve shortcuts. Introduced with
NFS3 - Hot Pursuit, and a big part of NFS4 - High Stakes, it was a key
part of those games. Considering the track shorcuts are described in the track
presentation, (when's the last time a game included track presentations?),
people knew of them. For example, this description of Celtic Ruins
for NFS4 - High Stakes, and a lap.

http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4pcr.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4crcl.wmv

The physics of High Stakes was absurd. There was more lateral grip than
longitudinal grip, and it seemed that both worked independently, as
you could steer hard and brake for a insanely rapid decrease in speed.
Then there were aspects that made NFS3 and the faster NFS4 challenging.
Going airborne for even an instant would slow down a car. Brushing any
object would slow down a car. This game was all about timing, since
you spent most of the time in turns with the steering pegged, so timing
the turn in so you could get through narrow shortcuts while at full
throttle with the steering pegged did require skill, but a different
kind of skill than real racing. Some of the cars required some time
to setup for a turn, (similar to GPL). You had to run clean laps with
precise speed over rises (to avoid going airborne), to achieve top lap
times. NFS4 also had features that are sorely lacking in many other racing
games. A ghost car feature where you could save a run, and then run against
it. A controller based replay system, that could be interchanged with other
players, proving that the game played the same on all PC's since it
was controller input based (meaning that when watching a replay, it
was really watching a race using the stored controller inputs from the
originator), and proving that a lap record run was done legally.
Day / night / weather settings for all tracks. For variety, online
racing included knockout mode: 8 players, 7 races, the "loser" of each
race drove a truck (usually in reverse direction) to crash into the
remaining racers, ending up with 6 trucks and 2 racers. It was a fun
diversion. Track presentations as already mentioned.

http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4kpcl.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4raf1.wmv

I never owned NFS1 or NFS1SE, but NFS2 and NFS2SE had the most realistic
physics of the series when run in "simulation" mode. Braking distances
were resonably long, and driving lines were similar to what you'd normally
use for a racing sim. The difference is that there was no power oversteer,
just brake induced understeer that would send you off track if you braked
too late. The tracks were fantasy tracks, and the graphics are dated, but
for my first PC based racing game, it was fun. This is from a 1997 game:

http://jeffareid.net/nfs2/n2sempd.wmv

The underground games (1 and 2) jumped in on the fast and furious fad.
U1 had limited tracks with short lap times, 40 to 60 seconds, and bouncing
off walls.

http://jeffareid.net/nfs7/n7os.wmv

U2 was a better, with a huge range. Street X was like indor go-kart racing,
lap times from 9 seconds to 30 seconds, while normal circuit tracks ranged
from 50 seconds to over 3 minutes per lap. There was also a outrun mode
which was just humorous, as the game designers intended for a player to
slowly pull away from the AI car, but the players figured out a few
alternatives that were a lot more fun:

http://jeffareid.net/nfs8/n8sx.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/nfs8/n8or.wmv

Most wanted went back to daytime and brought back the pursuits. What better
way to teach responsible driving than stuff like this?

http://jeffareid.net/nfs9/n9fprw.wmv

The lastest version, NFS Carbon, went back to the shortcuts, but these aren't
the narrow ones like with NFS4, and you can use a "scout" driver to show
a player where all the shortcuts are.

http://jeffareid.net/nfsc/nccraq1.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/nfsc/ncctcx.wmv

I like the racing sims as well, but realize that my skills limit me to only
getting within 5% to 7% of the expert racers.

http://jeffareid.net/gpl/gplkllt.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/gtr/gtrspa.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/rfr/rfrnrd2005f1.wmv

Plowboy wrote:

> Tim Wheatley enlightened us with:
> > Plowboy wrote:
> >
> >> Only genre in Simulations that is dead, is SODa Offroad.
> >> (technically CORR now http://www.corracing.com/). How hard would it
> >> be to get the code from the guys that developed SODA? probably hard
> >> as hell now...
> >
> > The guy who developed SODA now works with iRacing.com.
>
> Oh shee ***...t that is neat to know, hmmm hear anything?
> Now you got my attention, but probably not in the plans, huh?

It's no accident that he is on the team, obviously.

Anyway, I feel I am being off topic... So I'm stop talking. ;-)

That's true Uwe, I love the 79's (can't wait for final) and there are not a
lot of public servers running it. Have you considered joining a league that
races 'one of them' regularly?
I race Sunday and Thursday nites in leagues running the 79 F1's
(( great fun ))

I can post a link if you're interested.. or should be listing at RSC rFactor
Leagues board.

Cheers
==--==


"Uwe Schürkamp" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:34:25 -0500, Dave F wrote:
>> "timmy thompson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> that is a sad fact
>>
>> www.rfactorcentral.com receives 6,000 (or is it 16,000?) individual
>> visitors
>> every day.
>>
>>
>
> Hm, I'd be wary of web statistics, those numbers don't put bums in race
> seats I'd say ;-) I've been having trouble finding decently populated
> online servers running the mods I like at the moment (most F1 1979 and
> Proton / Demon).
>
> Cheers, uwe
>
>
> --
> GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Oh gil...

I quite agree, Jeff n I are still talking down through this thread...
Gil enlightened us with:
> NR2003 still has 200-400 players on weeknights, and weekends are a
> little busier. I can always find good, fun and competitive races with
> that game whenever I hook up the wheel.

I honestly think the #1 problem with sim racing (in general) on the most
basic terms is car or Mod compatability/capability.

Ok what the heck did I mean by that? here is my take.

except for the hard core guys, and the aliens; IMHO the more adept yet more
casual gamer, with too many choices to get proficient let alone comfortable
on. No I dont mean 2 many games or publishers, I mean choices of mod or
heck even cars to drive.

In nascar racing, the coding of the game pretty much makes mute yet keeps
the spirit of the actual intent of "nascar," that all cars be within a
certain % equal. I know there're arguing in real life about trunklid
allowances etc etc, but in the sim you are given the same car I give myself,
with the same potential to be the winning car everytime you drive. the
playing field was preset, you could pick (previously pontiac, olds) dodge,
chevy or ford but that choice meant diddly about the outcome of the race, if
all else was equal (meaning driven and setup with same skills).

Last weekend I drove the Escorts & capris with some other guys, we had a
huge good time because the skills were close, everyone else was in the same
or close cars... IMHO and we raced close, the fun ended because it was an
open server and guys came in with the pantera's and the 906's and hell we
were no longer a really a match...

I guess my mistake is not "getting into" the 906 until I love it, that way
when everyone is running the 906, I could too but I just dont, so how many
others are like me? I think a decent portion are.


Snipped...

Well first off - to each his own - I always say

Secondly... I race the cars I like to race - period.
So for me, I get a great choice of different rides from F1 79 through ETCC -
I love having those choices. On the otherhand, I don't race the karts, or
off-road, or nascar (much), or Bugs, or or or ....

I would hope that most are like me and love the diversity.

Find a group that likes the rides you like and race with them. Don't worry
about the 906 and the PCC, just pick one and get good at it Joking
Later you will feel like a change and there will be the other waiting for
you

Cheers
==--==
( IMHO - ofcourse )


"Plowboy" > wrote in message
...
>I honestly think the #1 problem with sim racing (in general) on the most
>basic terms is car or Mod compatability/capability.
>
> Ok what the heck did I mean by that? here is my take.
>
> except for the hard core guys, and the aliens; IMHO the more adept yet
> more casual gamer, with too many choices to get proficient let alone
> comfortable on. No I dont mean 2 many games or publishers, I mean choices
> of mod or heck even cars to drive.
>
> In nascar racing, the coding of the game pretty much makes mute yet keeps
> the spirit of the actual intent of "nascar," that all cars be within a
> certain % equal. I know there're arguing in real life about trunklid
> allowances etc etc, but in the sim you are given the same car I give
> myself, with the same potential to be the winning car everytime you drive.
> the playing field was preset, you could pick (previously pontiac, olds)
> dodge, chevy or ford but that choice meant diddly about the outcome of the
> race, if all else was equal (meaning driven and setup with same skills).
>
> Last weekend I drove the Escorts & capris with some other guys, we had a
> huge good time because the skills were close, everyone else was in the
> same or close cars... IMHO and we raced close, the fun ended because it
> was an open server and guys came in with the pantera's and the 906's and
> hell we were no longer a really a match...
>
> I guess my mistake is not "getting into" the 906 until I love it, that way
> when everyone is running the 906, I could too but I just dont, so how many
> others are like me? I think a decent portion are.
>
>
> Snipped...
>
>
>
>

>> I hope the full release manages to rectify this situation, though ;-)
>> <<

Hear, Hear.

I hope so to Uwe ... I hope the full mod comes sooooooooon!!!! LOL

Season's Best
==--==


"Uwe Schürkamp" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:19:00 GMT, ==--== wrote:
>> That's true Uwe, I love the 79's (can't wait for final) and there are not
>> a
>> lot of public servers running it. Have you considered joining a league
>> that
>> races 'one of them' regularly?
>> I race Sunday and Thursday nites in leagues running the 79 F1's
>> (( great fun ))
>>
>> I can post a link if you're interested.. or should be listing at RSC
>> rFactor
>> Leagues board.
>
> Actually I run in league on a bi-weekly basis, but every once in a while
> I check the public servers for 79 races, too, and while this mod
> dominated the public servers shortly after the demo was released, the
> excitement seems to have come down a bit.
>
> I hope the full release manages to rectify this situation, though ;-)
>
> Cheers & happy holidays, uwe
>
> --
> GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article >,
(Jeff Reid) wrote:

> *From:* "Jeff Reid" >
> *Date:* Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:15:37 -0800

I disagree that sim racing is dead, the response to the original
post in this thread goes soem way to prove that....

> Racing sims have been around since 1999.

Hmm, they have been around a lot longer than that?

Anyone remember Grand Prix by Geoff Crammond? that must have been
released around the late 80's or early 90's, or what about his even
earlier offerings "Revs" for the BBC micro? that must have been
around in the early to mid 80's.

And what about programs like stunt car racer? even earlier (82? 83?)

8-)

*Peter* - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/