A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto newsgroups » General
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

battery question



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 1st 04, 07:00 AM
Jim Beaver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default battery question

I've got a '02 Jeep Grand Cherokee. About three weeks ago, it suddenly
failed to start -- no lights, no chimes, no meters -- this just an hour or
so after driving it without a hint of battery problem. The battery (which
came with the car) has one of those little windows in it, showing green
(which I presume to mean charged). But putting a charger on the battery
showed (on the charger's meter) that the battery was dead. I put another a
new battery in the car, the car started fine, and has run without incident
for three weeks now. The old battery I charged overnight. The charger
meter read fully charged. I unplugged the charger (still connected to the
battery) and left it for several days. I plugged the charger back in and
quickly the meter showed the battery to still be fully charged. I've done
this several times over three weeks. The old battery is clearly holding the
charge. The new battery (in the car) is clearly holding a charge.

My questions: why would a battery that continually holds a charge suddenly
go dead like that one time, but then easily continue to hold a charge when
recharged? And, why would one battery that holds a charge continue to
function well in a car when another battery that holds a charge suddenly
lost that charge in the same car? Connections were always tight and solid
(I tested).

Bottom line: is the old battery likely to flunk out again once I put it in
one of my cars? Is there a difference between holding a charge sitting on
my garage floor and holding one while hooked up to my engine (when a
different battery is maintaining its charge in the same location)?

Jim Beaver


Ads
  #2  
Old November 1st 04, 07:24 AM
Jeff Wisnia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim Beaver wrote:
> I've got a '02 Jeep Grand Cherokee. About three weeks ago, it suddenly
> failed to start -- no lights, no chimes, no meters -- this just an hour or
> so after driving it without a hint of battery problem. The battery (which
> came with the car) has one of those little windows in it, showing green
> (which I presume to mean charged). But putting a charger on the battery
> showed (on the charger's meter) that the battery was dead. I put another a
> new battery in the car, the car started fine, and has run without incident
> for three weeks now. The old battery I charged overnight. The charger
> meter read fully charged. I unplugged the charger (still connected to the
> battery) and left it for several days. I plugged the charger back in and
> quickly the meter showed the battery to still be fully charged. I've done
> this several times over three weeks. The old battery is clearly holding the
> charge. The new battery (in the car) is clearly holding a charge.
>
> My questions: why would a battery that continually holds a charge suddenly
> go dead like that one time, but then easily continue to hold a charge when
> recharged? And, why would one battery that holds a charge continue to
> function well in a car when another battery that holds a charge suddenly
> lost that charge in the same car? Connections were always tight and solid
> (I tested).
>
> Bottom line: is the old battery likely to flunk out again once I put it in
> one of my cars? Is there a difference between holding a charge sitting on
> my garage floor and holding one while hooked up to my engine (when a
> different battery is maintaining its charge in the same location)?
>
> Jim Beaver
>
>

It's unlikely a two year old battery would fail in the fashion you reported.

I suspect that when the problem first occurred you may have found the
battery terminal connections "tight", but that didn't mean they were
"clean". It's not uncommon for battery terminal connections to develop
an insulating oxide film which prevents current flow even though they
feel mechanically tight.

The simple act of removing the "dirty" terminal from the battery and
replacing it will often make the problem go away, which might be what
happened when you installed a new battery.

The correct fix is to clean the contacting surfaces of the battery and
cable terminals by wire brushing them and then put a film of anti-oxide
coating on them. (I like Thomas and Betts' "Kopper-Shield" for that
purpose, it contains a very fine coper powder which enhances contact.

The other possibility is that your old battery has a broken internal
strap between two cells which sometimes makes contact and sometimes
doesn't, but that's a long shot.

Finally, remember that your battery charger is only reporting the
voltage of the battery, not it's ability to deliver current. Eight AAA
batteries in series will give you twelve volts, but they darned well
won't crank over yout engine.

Find someplace with a "battery load tester" (and someone who knows how
to use it) and check your old battery with it. That'll give you your answer.

HTH,

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"
  #3  
Old November 1st 04, 03:40 PM
Tim Wright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hactar wrote:
> In article >,
> Jeff Wisnia > wrote:
>
>>Jim Beaver wrote:
>>
>>>I've got a '02 Jeep Grand Cherokee. About three weeks ago, it suddenly
>>>failed to start -- no lights, no chimes, no meters -- this just an hour or
>>>so after driving it without a hint of battery problem. The battery (which
>>>came with the car) has one of those little windows in it, showing green
>>>(which I presume to mean charged). But putting a charger on the battery
>>>showed (on the charger's meter) that the battery was dead. I put another a
>>>new battery in the car, the car started fine, and has run without incident
>>>for three weeks now. The old battery I charged overnight. The charger
>>>meter read fully charged. I unplugged the charger (still connected to the
>>>battery) and left it for several days. I plugged the charger back in and
>>>quickly the meter showed the battery to still be fully charged. I've done
>>>this several times over three weeks. The old battery is clearly holding the
>>>charge. The new battery (in the car) is clearly holding a charge.

>>
>>I suspect that when the problem first occurred you may have found the
>>battery terminal connections "tight", but that didn't mean they were
>>"clean". It's not uncommon for battery terminal connections to develop
>>an insulating oxide film which prevents current flow even though they
>>feel mechanically tight.
>>
>>The simple act of removing the "dirty" terminal from the battery and
>>replacing it will often make the problem go away, which might be what
>>happened when you installed a new battery.
>>
>>The correct fix is to clean the contacting surfaces of the battery and
>>cable terminals by wire brushing them and then put a film of anti-oxide
>>coating on them. (I like Thomas and Betts' "Kopper-Shield" for that
>>purpose, it contains a very fine coper powder which enhances contact.
>>
>>The other possibility is that your old battery has a broken internal
>>strap between two cells which sometimes makes contact and sometimes
>>doesn't, but that's a long shot.
>>
>>Finally, remember that your battery charger is only reporting the
>>voltage of the battery, not it's ability to deliver current. Eight AAA
>>batteries in series will give you twelve volts, but they darned well
>>won't crank over yout engine.

>
>
> Some act that way. The one here has a current meter, 0-6A. OTOH,
> unplugging the AC without disconnecting it from the battery means the
> battery current flows through the charger, at a rate that can discharge
> a battery in one night.
>
> As a third option, maybe your ignition switch is flaky, and sometimes
> engages the starter motor and sometimes doesn't. But I vote for the "bad
> electrical contact to terminal" option.
>

Here's an old used car dealer trick. If it acts like you describe, pour
a warm Coca-Cola on the battery terminals. Let it sit for about 10
minutes then try it. The carbonic acid helps penetrate the grunge, and
the carbon in the sugar helps restore conductivity.

Tim

--
Remove "nospam" from return address to reply.
  #4  
Old November 1st 04, 05:55 PM
Jim Beaver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jeff Wisnia" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Beaver wrote:
>> I've got a '02 Jeep Grand Cherokee. About three weeks ago, it suddenly
>> failed to start -- no lights, no chimes, no meters -- this just an hour
>> or so after driving it without a hint of battery problem. The battery
>> (which came with the car) has one of those little windows in it, showing
>> green (which I presume to mean charged). But putting a charger on the
>> battery showed (on the charger's meter) that the battery was dead. I put
>> another a new battery in the car, the car started fine, and has run
>> without incident for three weeks now. The old battery I charged
>> overnight. The charger meter read fully charged. I unplugged the
>> charger (still connected to the battery) and left it for several days. I
>> plugged the charger back in and quickly the meter showed the battery to
>> still be fully charged. I've done this several times over three weeks.
>> The old battery is clearly holding the charge. The new battery (in the
>> car) is clearly holding a charge.
>>
>> My questions: why would a battery that continually holds a charge
>> suddenly go dead like that one time, but then easily continue to hold a
>> charge when recharged? And, why would one battery that holds a charge
>> continue to function well in a car when another battery that holds a
>> charge suddenly lost that charge in the same car? Connections were
>> always tight and solid (I tested).
>>
>> Bottom line: is the old battery likely to flunk out again once I put it
>> in one of my cars? Is there a difference between holding a charge
>> sitting on my garage floor and holding one while hooked up to my engine
>> (when a different battery is maintaining its charge in the same
>> location)?
>>
>> Jim Beaver

> It's unlikely a two year old battery would fail in the fashion you
> reported.
>
> I suspect that when the problem first occurred you may have found the
> battery terminal connections "tight", but that didn't mean they were
> "clean". It's not uncommon for battery terminal connections to develop an
> insulating oxide film which prevents current flow even though they feel
> mechanically tight.
>
> The simple act of removing the "dirty" terminal from the battery and
> replacing it will often make the problem go away, which might be what
> happened when you installed a new battery.
>
> The correct fix is to clean the contacting surfaces of the battery and
> cable terminals by wire brushing them and then put a film of anti-oxide
> coating on them. (I like Thomas and Betts' "Kopper-Shield" for that
> purpose, it contains a very fine coper powder which enhances contact.
>
> The other possibility is that your old battery has a broken internal strap
> between two cells which sometimes makes contact and sometimes doesn't, but
> that's a long shot.
>
> Finally, remember that your battery charger is only reporting the voltage
> of the battery, not it's ability to deliver current. Eight AAA batteries
> in series will give you twelve volts, but they darned well won't crank
> over yout engine.
>
> Find someplace with a "battery load tester" (and someone who knows how to
> use it) and check your old battery with it. That'll give you your answer.


Thanks a lot. I'll do that. I've got some doubts about it being a
connection problem, as I did some (not all) of the stuff you suggested. But
nothing else seems to fit. Thanks again.

Jim Beaver


  #5  
Old November 1st 04, 06:14 PM
Bill Turlock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
>
> Jim Beaver wrote:
> > I've got a '02 Jeep Grand Cherokee. About three weeks ago, it suddenly
> > failed to start -- no lights, no chimes, no meters -- this just an hour or
> > so after driving it without a hint of battery problem. The battery (which
> > came with the car) has one of those little windows in it, showing green
> > (which I presume to mean charged). But putting a charger on the battery
> > showed (on the charger's meter) that the battery was dead. I put another a
> > new battery in the car, the car started fine, and has run without incident
> > for three weeks now. The old battery I charged overnight. The charger
> > meter read fully charged. I unplugged the charger (still connected to the
> > battery) and left it for several days. I plugged the charger back in and
> > quickly the meter showed the battery to still be fully charged. I've done
> > this several times over three weeks. The old battery is clearly holding the
> > charge. The new battery (in the car) is clearly holding a charge.
> >
> > My questions: why would a battery that continually holds a charge suddenly
> > go dead like that one time, but then easily continue to hold a charge when
> > recharged? And, why would one battery that holds a charge continue to
> > function well in a car when another battery that holds a charge suddenly
> > lost that charge in the same car? Connections were always tight and solid
> > (I tested).
> >
> > Bottom line: is the old battery likely to flunk out again once I put it in
> > one of my cars? Is there a difference between holding a charge sitting on
> > my garage floor and holding one while hooked up to my engine (when a
> > different battery is maintaining its charge in the same location)?
> >
> > Jim Beaver
> >
> >

> It's unlikely a two year old battery would fail in the fashion you reported.
>
> I suspect that when the problem first occurred you may have found the
> battery terminal connections "tight", but that didn't mean they were
> "clean". It's not uncommon for battery terminal connections to develop
> an insulating oxide film which prevents current flow even though they
> feel mechanically tight.
>
> The simple act of removing the "dirty" terminal from the battery and
> replacing it will often make the problem go away, which might be what
> happened when you installed a new battery.
>
> The correct fix is to clean the contacting surfaces of the battery and
> cable terminals by wire brushing them and then put a film of anti-oxide
> coating on them. (I like Thomas and Betts' "Kopper-Shield" for that
> purpose, it contains a very fine coper powder which enhances contact.
>
> The other possibility is that your old battery has a broken internal
> strap between two cells which sometimes makes contact and sometimes
> doesn't, but that's a long shot.
>
> Finally, remember that your battery charger is only reporting the
> voltage of the battery, not it's ability to deliver current. Eight AAA
> batteries in series will give you twelve volts, but they darned well
> won't crank over yout engine.
>
> Find someplace with a "battery load tester" (and someone who knows how
> to use it) and check your old battery with it. That'll give you your answer.
>
> HTH,
>
> Jeff



I wanna get some of that!
But...

http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...&subgroupId=65

http://tinyurl.com/3kbnf

reports that it's supposed to be used for copper only.

Battery contacts are usually lead, IIRC

Bill "QCWA a/o '99 " Turlock
  #6  
Old November 1st 04, 06:36 PM
Charles Bishop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, Tim Wright
> wrote:


>Here's an old used car dealer trick. If it acts like you describe, pour
>a warm Coca-Cola on the battery terminals. Let it sit for about 10
>minutes then try it. The carbonic acid helps penetrate the grunge, and
>the carbon in the sugar helps restore conductivity.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^

You sure about this?

Click and Clack got a phone call from a woman in Texas wondering whether,
since she didn't have any coke, she could use Dr. Pepper.

charles
  #7  
Old November 1st 04, 06:38 PM
Nate Nagel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Charles Bishop wrote:

> In article >, Tim Wright
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>Here's an old used car dealer trick. If it acts like you describe, pour
>>a warm Coca-Cola on the battery terminals. Let it sit for about 10
>>minutes then try it. The carbonic acid helps penetrate the grunge, and
>>the carbon in the sugar helps restore conductivity.

>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You sure about this?
>
> Click and Clack got a phone call from a woman in Texas wondering whether,
> since she didn't have any coke, she could use Dr. Pepper.
>
> charles


I think it's the phosphoric acid that does the trick, and anything with
phosphoric acid will work.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
  #8  
Old November 1st 04, 07:12 PM
Jeff Wisnia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Charles Bishop wrote:
>
>> In article >, Tim Wright
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Here's an old used car dealer trick. If it acts like you describe,
>>> pour a warm Coca-Cola on the battery terminals. Let it sit for about
>>> 10 minutes then try it. The carbonic acid helps penetrate the
>>> grunge, and the carbon in the sugar helps restore conductivity.

>>
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> You sure about this?
>> Click and Clack got a phone call from a woman in Texas wondering whether,
>> since she didn't have any coke, she could use Dr. Pepper.
>>
>> charles

>
>
> I think it's the phosphoric acid that does the trick, and anything with
> phosphoric acid will work.
>
> nate
>



Yeah, and when I was a kid you'd shake up a glass bottle of Coke with
your thumb over the open top and spray some of it it on the windshield
while it was raining to "cut the grease" and keep the wiper blades from
streaking.

Then you'd toss down the remainder...

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"
  #9  
Old November 1st 04, 07:20 PM
Jeff Wisnia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Turlock wrote:

> Jeff Wisnia wrote:
>
>>Jim Beaver wrote:
>>
>>>I've got a '02 Jeep Grand Cherokee. About three weeks ago, it suddenly
>>>failed to start -- no lights, no chimes, no meters -- this just an hour or
>>>so after driving it without a hint of battery problem. The battery (which
>>>came with the car) has one of those little windows in it, showing green
>>>(which I presume to mean charged). But putting a charger on the battery
>>>showed (on the charger's meter) that the battery was dead. I put another a
>>>new battery in the car, the car started fine, and has run without incident
>>>for three weeks now. The old battery I charged overnight. The charger
>>>meter read fully charged. I unplugged the charger (still connected to the
>>>battery) and left it for several days. I plugged the charger back in and
>>>quickly the meter showed the battery to still be fully charged. I've done
>>>this several times over three weeks. The old battery is clearly holding the
>>>charge. The new battery (in the car) is clearly holding a charge.
>>>
>>>My questions: why would a battery that continually holds a charge suddenly
>>>go dead like that one time, but then easily continue to hold a charge when
>>>recharged? And, why would one battery that holds a charge continue to
>>>function well in a car when another battery that holds a charge suddenly
>>>lost that charge in the same car? Connections were always tight and solid
>>>(I tested).
>>>
>>>Bottom line: is the old battery likely to flunk out again once I put it in
>>>one of my cars? Is there a difference between holding a charge sitting on
>>>my garage floor and holding one while hooked up to my engine (when a
>>>different battery is maintaining its charge in the same location)?
>>>
>>>Jim Beaver
>>>
>>>

>>
>>It's unlikely a two year old battery would fail in the fashion you reported.
>>
>>I suspect that when the problem first occurred you may have found the
>>battery terminal connections "tight", but that didn't mean they were
>>"clean". It's not uncommon for battery terminal connections to develop
>>an insulating oxide film which prevents current flow even though they
>>feel mechanically tight.
>>
>>The simple act of removing the "dirty" terminal from the battery and
>>replacing it will often make the problem go away, which might be what
>>happened when you installed a new battery.
>>
>>The correct fix is to clean the contacting surfaces of the battery and
>>cable terminals by wire brushing them and then put a film of anti-oxide
>>coating on them. (I like Thomas and Betts' "Kopper-Shield" for that
>>purpose, it contains a very fine coper powder which enhances contact.
>>
>>The other possibility is that your old battery has a broken internal
>>strap between two cells which sometimes makes contact and sometimes
>>doesn't, but that's a long shot.
>>
>>Finally, remember that your battery charger is only reporting the
>>voltage of the battery, not it's ability to deliver current. Eight AAA
>>batteries in series will give you twelve volts, but they darned well
>>won't crank over yout engine.
>>
>>Find someplace with a "battery load tester" (and someone who knows how
>>to use it) and check your old battery with it. That'll give you your answer.
>>
>>HTH,
>>
>>Jeff

>
>
>
> I wanna get some of that!
> But...
>
> http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...&subgroupId=65
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3kbnf
>
> reports that it's supposed to be used for copper only.
>
> Battery contacts are usually lead, IIRC
>
> Bill "QCWA a/o '99 " Turlock



Copper, schmopper! I read that when I got the brush top tin can I still
have (about 30 years ago). Apparently it does it's thing on lead as well
as the "white metal" electroplatings they put on various electrical
contacts, cause I've used it on automotive stuff many times over the
years and I've never noticed any deliterious effects.

But, I'll stand corrected if someone can tell me why they say "copper only".

The only thing I can think of is that under wet conditions the copper in
it might tend to cause galvanic corrosion when used with dissimilar
metals, if water can squeeze in in spite of the grease base the stuff has.

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"
  #10  
Old November 1st 04, 09:10 PM
Steve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nate Nagel wrote:

> Charles Bishop wrote:
>
>> In article >, Tim Wright
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Here's an old used car dealer trick. If it acts like you describe,
>>> pour a warm Coca-Cola on the battery terminals. Let it sit for about
>>> 10 minutes then try it. The carbonic acid helps penetrate the
>>> grunge, and the carbon in the sugar helps restore conductivity.

>>
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> You sure about this?
>> Click and Clack got a phone call from a woman in Texas wondering whether,
>> since she didn't have any coke, she could use Dr. Pepper.
>>
>> charles

>
>
> I think it's the phosphoric acid that does the trick, and anything with
> phosphoric acid will work.
>
> nate
>


Sorry, but my BS detector has ALWAYS made beeping sounds when someone
brings up using the "acid" in Coke (or Dr. Pepper :-) to clean the
battery terminals. Why would an acid be effective on terminals that are
corroded because they're constantly bathed in sulfuric ACID fumes from
the battery? If anything is going to clean the terminals, it would be
something alkaline. Like baking soda in water. If the Coke treatment
does anything, it simply provides water which the H+ions on the
terminals due to acids can then dissolve into, which makes the water
conductive, which (temporarily) allows a corroded connection to work
better than when it was dry.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Battery durability/generator question Braukuche VW air cooled 5 November 23rd 04 05:36 PM
Battery and Alternator question Wurm Saturn 8 November 11th 04 05:18 AM
84 Vette battery question Jon Smith Corvette 6 October 7th 04 03:39 PM
84 Vette battery question Jeff & Missy Corvette 0 October 7th 04 05:17 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.