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2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 11th 16, 01:31 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
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Posts: 82
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:49:28 PM UTC-10, wrote:
>> dsi1:
>>
>> Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
>> understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
>> were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
>> it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
>> used one with 30,000 miles.
>>
>> Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
>> steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
>> set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
>> dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
>> to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
>> a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
>> It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
>> full size models.
>>
>>
>> Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
>> feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
>> caster - within specs - would really ice the cake.

>
>Just tell the alignment guy your problem and he'll probably just change the toe-im. I don't know if they'll be in spec but that should improve straight line stability. The young alignment guy might not want to do it so find the oldest, most ornery-looking coot in the shop and ask him. The price you pay will be increased tire wear.


Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.
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  #12  
Old August 11th 16, 02:18 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Posts: 539
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range


Bill Vanek wrote: "Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
return to center are camber, caster"


Here are my last specs from the dealer:

*First sets of numbers are specs. "Mine" are what my car is
at as of time of reading by technician.

FRONT:
Camber: 0 to -1.0deg Mine: L= -.2deg R= -.8

Caster: -3.9 to -4.9deg Mine: L= -3.8 R= -3.9

Toe: -0.02 to +0.18deg Mine: L= +0.08 R= +0.03


REAR:
Camber: -0.5 to -1.5deg Mine(reduced from -1.5): L= -.9 R= -.7

Toe: -0.02 to +0.19deg Mine: L= +0.01 R= +0.45

Total Rear Toe: -0.03 to +0.37deg Mine: +0.46deg

Thrust: -0.22deg


See anything that pops your eyeballs?

  #13  
Old August 11th 16, 02:40 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
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Posts: 82
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>
>Bill Vanek wrote: "Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
>car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
>return to center are camber, caster"
>
>
>Here are my last specs from the dealer:
>
>*First sets of numbers are specs. "Mine" are what my car is
>at as of time of reading by technician.
>
>FRONT:
>Camber: 0 to -1.0deg Mine: L= -.2deg R= -.8
>
>Caster: -3.9 to -4.9deg Mine: L= -3.8 R= -3.9
>
>Toe: -0.02 to +0.18deg Mine: L= +0.08 R= +0.03
>
>
>REAR:
>Camber: -0.5 to -1.5deg Mine(reduced from -1.5): L= -.9 R= -.7
>
>Toe: -0.02 to +0.19deg Mine: L= +0.01 R= +0.45
>
>Total Rear Toe: -0.03 to +0.37deg Mine: +0.46deg
>
>Thrust: -0.22deg
>
>
>See anything that pops your eyeballs?


Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
wear.

If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience has been
that the recommended pressure is almost always the best.
  #14  
Old August 11th 16, 03:07 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
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Posts: 539
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

Bill Vanek wrote: "On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
- show quoted text -
"Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
wear. "

Yeah, didn't think about that front camber! It's 'in spec', but
cross camber is greater than half a degree.

As far as rear toe goes: The way it is now is countering
*some* of the left pull due to slightly less positive left
caster and significantly less negative left front camber.
That's probably why the alignment tech himself told me
he "wouldn't touch it".

Here's the issue: Both Hyundai dealers say there's nothing
that can be done about that camber. The "camber kit" available
early on in this run of Sonata is no longer available, so they say,
and I should just "live with it".

I don't believe them!


"If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience"
that the recommended pressure is almost always the best. "

Unsure?? LOL It is definitely a two-hand car, at 30 or 60mph.

We seem to agree on tire pressures. Hyundai's recommended
pressure is 33psi cold, all around. I keep it 35psi, as it firms up
the ride and handling a bit.

Vanek: This car is very 'busy' spec-wise: It has a lot of
counter-aligning going on: Negative rear thrust angle countering
the aforementioned caster and camber issues in the front.
It's like driving in a 'fog'.


What it really needs is a little more left-front negative camber,
and maybe a little less negative right-front camber. That is
actually more of an issue than the caster, now that you
pointed it out.


So my challenge is finding someone to go above and beyond,
even if there are just slightly bent parts up front causing it,
and nothing else.
  #15  
Old August 11th 16, 03:53 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
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Posts: 82
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:07:56 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Bill Vanek wrote: "On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT),
>wrote:
>- show quoted text -
>"Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
>rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
>wear. "
>
>Yeah, didn't think about that front camber! It's 'in spec', but
>cross camber is greater than half a degree.
>
>As far as rear toe goes: The way it is now is countering
>*some* of the left pull due to slightly less positive left
>caster and significantly less negative left front camber.
>That's probably why the alignment tech himself told me
>he "wouldn't touch it".


The rear end will not make the car pull. The thrust angle can make the
car move to one side, but that's not pull, it's simply where the car
is pointed. It's trivial to correct the rear toe, and that should
correct the thrust angle. Rear caster will do nothing, but rear camber
& toe will cause those tires to wear.

>Here's the issue: Both Hyundai dealers say there's nothing
>that can be done about that camber. The "camber kit" available
>early on in this run of Sonata is no longer available, so they say,
>and I should just "live with it".


>I don't believe them!


I don't think you should believe them. It's also possible that you
could shift the engine cradle, or whatever is used for the suspension
support, a little bit. Was the car ever in a collision? If not, there
must be a way to adjust the camber, at least with aftermarket parts.

>"If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
>try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
>It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience"
>that the recommended pressure is almost always the best. "
>
>Unsure?? LOL It is definitely a two-hand car, at 30 or 60mph.


Are your tires overinflated, or right at the recommended pressure for
the installed tires?

>We seem to agree on tire pressures. Hyundai's recommended
>pressure is 33psi cold, all around. I keep it 35psi, as it firms up
>the ride and handling a bit.


But do you have the original spec'd tires on the car? Are they good
tires? Tires can have a serious impact on road feel.

>Vanek: This car is very 'busy' spec-wise: It has a lot of
>counter-aligning going on: Negative rear thrust angle countering
>the aforementioned caster and camber issues in the front.
>It's like driving in a 'fog'.
>
>
>What it really needs is a little more left-front negative camber,
>and maybe a little less negative right-front camber. That is
>actually more of an issue than the caster, now that you
>pointed it out.
>
>
>So my challenge is finding someone to go above and beyond,
>even if there are just slightly bent parts up front causing it,
>and nothing else.


If you don't live in a big city area, you might have a problem finding
someone. Are there any racing shops, specialty shops, reputable tire
shops? I have to admit that even in bigger cities, it can be a
challenge finding someone. All you can do is drive around, talk to
different people, and hope to find someone who sounds like he knows
what he's talking about. For instance, if he tells you that toe can
make it pull to one side, or caster causes tire wear, he's not that
someone. And there are other commonly ignored specs that can help
point to bent parts, like toe-on-turns, and kingpin inclination.
  #16  
Old August 11th 16, 03:55 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
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Posts: 331
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:49:28 PM UTC-10, wrote:
> >> dsi1:
> >>
> >> Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
> >> understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
> >> were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
> >> it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
> >> used one with 30,000 miles.
> >>
> >> Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
> >> steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
> >> set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
> >> dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
> >> to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
> >> a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
> >> It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
> >> full size models.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
> >> feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
> >> caster - within specs - would really ice the cake.

> >
> >Just tell the alignment guy your problem and he'll probably just change the toe-im. I don't know if they'll be in spec but that should improve straight line stability. The young alignment guy might not want to do it so find the oldest, most ornery-looking coot in the shop and ask him. The price you pay will be increased tire wear.

>
> Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
> car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
> return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.


I believe that the OP is experiencing wandering back and forth.
  #17  
Old August 11th 16, 04:06 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 82
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:49:28 PM UTC-10, wrote:
>> >> dsi1:
>> >>
>> >> Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
>> >> understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
>> >> were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
>> >> it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
>> >> used one with 30,000 miles.
>> >>
>> >> Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
>> >> steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
>> >> set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
>> >> dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
>> >> to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
>> >> a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
>> >> It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
>> >> full size models.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
>> >> feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
>> >> caster - within specs - would really ice the cake.
>> >
>> >Just tell the alignment guy your problem and he'll probably just change the toe-im. I don't know if they'll be in spec but that should improve straight line stability. The young alignment guy might not want to do it so find the oldest, most ornery-looking coot in the shop and ask him. The price you pay will be increased tire wear.

>>
>> Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
>> car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
>> return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.

>
>I believe that the OP is experiencing wandering back and forth.


He is, but in a subsequent post we can see that the toe is okay. He
does have a thrust angle issue - it's non-zero, but I don't know how
far off is too far off.
  #18  
Old August 11th 16, 04:21 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
dsi1[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 5:06:51 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:49:28 PM UTC-10, wrote:
> >> >> dsi1:
> >> >>
> >> >> Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
> >> >> understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
> >> >> were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
> >> >> it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
> >> >> used one with 30,000 miles.
> >> >>
> >> >> Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
> >> >> steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
> >> >> set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
> >> >> dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
> >> >> to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
> >> >> a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
> >> >> It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
> >> >> full size models.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
> >> >> feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
> >> >> caster - within specs - would really ice the cake.
> >> >
> >> >Just tell the alignment guy your problem and he'll probably just change the toe-im. I don't know if they'll be in spec but that should improve straight line stability. The young alignment guy might not want to do it so find the oldest, most ornery-looking coot in the shop and ask him. The price you pay will be increased tire wear.
> >>
> >> Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
> >> car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
> >> return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.

> >
> >I believe that the OP is experiencing wandering back and forth.

>
> He is, but in a subsequent post we can see that the toe is okay. He
> does have a thrust angle issue - it's non-zero, but I don't know how
> far off is too far off.


If it wanders, doesn't that mean that the toe is not OK? You have to get an experienced alignment guy to adjust the toe-in based on the problem. The toe-in might not be to spec. If this is a common problem with these cars, then you'll have to go out of spec. Well that's my opinion anyway. If you're saying that he has to get the rear end squared away first well, yes, of course.
  #19  
Old August 11th 16, 05:17 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Bill Vanek[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 82
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 5:06:51 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 1:49:28 PM UTC-10, wrote:
>> >> >> dsi1:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
>> >> >> understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
>> >> >> were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
>> >> >> it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
>> >> >> used one with 30,000 miles.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
>> >> >> steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
>> >> >> set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
>> >> >> dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
>> >> >> to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
>> >> >> a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
>> >> >> It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
>> >> >> full size models.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
>> >> >> feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
>> >> >> caster - within specs - would really ice the cake.
>> >> >
>> >> >Just tell the alignment guy your problem and he'll probably just change the toe-im. I don't know if they'll be in spec but that should improve straight line stability. The young alignment guy might not want to do it so find the oldest, most ornery-looking coot in the shop and ask him. The price you pay will be increased tire wear.
>> >>
>> >> Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
>> >> car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
>> >> return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.
>> >
>> >I believe that the OP is experiencing wandering back and forth.

>>
>> He is, but in a subsequent post we can see that the toe is okay. He
>> does have a thrust angle issue - it's non-zero, but I don't know how
>> far off is too far off.

>
>If it wanders, doesn't that mean that the toe is not OK?


Not if it measures okay. Crappy tires, road surface, loose/worn parts
- including in the rear, probably other things I'm forgetting, those
will cause it. Also, it it's the toe, the car will tend to jump around
side to side, and in small amounts, as opposed to just slowly drifting
back and forth.

> You have to get an experienced alignment guy to adjust the toe-in based on the problem. The toe-in might not be to spec. If this is a common problem with these cars, then you'll have to go out of spec. Well that's my opinion anyway. If you're saying that he has to get the rear end squared away first well, yes, of course.

  #20  
Old August 11th 16, 11:55 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 539
Default 2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Rangel

Bill Vanek, dsi1:


Thank you for all of your well-thought out
insights!

Bill: The wander is gradual, over time, and
having both hands on the wheel at all times
seems to minimize it, but it is a tiring way to
have to drive.

The elephant in the room seems to be that
front cross camber, which my alignment
sheet seems to indicate equals negative 0.5.
I always thought the difference betwen -0.8
and -02. is 0.6. That is enough for concern,
and it seems correcting that alone would solve
my problem.

The excessive rear toe could be corrected
at some point in the future.

I actually prefer a *gradual* pull(or point) to
the right, for obvious safety reasons, and
that is what would happen once that front
neg camber is closer to equal. As it is now,
changes in local road crown and overall
road angle are producing gradual wander
either way, at local speeds and highway
speed. I read somewhere about 'camber
thrust' - and I believe that is what my front
cross camber is contributing to.

I just need to find someone who is willing
to do *whatever* it takes to fix it - replace
parts, slot something, whatever!

I have not made my first payment on this
car yet, and will return it if this issue
cannot be solved.
 




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