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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Practical advice (helpful hints & suggestions) requested from those of you
who have successfully checked camber at home (to sufficient accuracy). If you have never checked your automotive alignment camber at home, you probably won't be able to add much practical value to this thread; however if you have actually measured your wheel camber with sufficient accuracy at home, you almost certainly can add valuable pragmatic hints to this thread (such that we'll all learn from your experience). I am researching whether automotive alignment camber quick checks are yet possible to a reasonable degree of accuracy using a free app on a common mobile device (either iOS or Android, both of which I own). A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home: https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home where some of those articles used mobile phone apps (e.g., XXXXXX) Here I am just asking for advice from those of you who have successfully checked your camber at home using your smartphone to measure the angles to sufficient accuracy. To find apps which measure angles to sufficient accuracy, I have already run a variety of Google searches of the general form: 1. review best ios free app angle automotive alignment camber accurate 2. review best android free app angle automotive alignment camber accurate Some hits from the iOS searches are as follows: A. Wheel Align for ALiSENSOR Wheel By Gloi AB https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/whee...or/id513879710 B. iHandy Level Free By iHandy Inc. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ihan...ee/id299852753 C. Clinometer + bubble level + slope finder (3 in 1) By Peter Breitling https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clin...el/id286215117 Some hits from the Android searches are as follows: A. Clinometer + bubble level By plaincode https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ode.clinometer B. iHandy Level Free By iHandy Ltd. https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...arpenter.level C. Angle Meter PRO By nakhon phagdeechat https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....anglemeterpro The amount of useless responses to this thread can be minimized simply by asking those who don't care to or who haven't ever successfully checked their camber at home to NOT respond (they're not going to be able to tell us anything we don't already know - all they're going to do is clutter up this thread to make it harder to be useful to others). However, if you have ever attempted to check your camber at home using a smart phone angle measuring tool, your insight, hints, and advice would be greatly appreciated (and would be generally useful to many people). |
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#2
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Ooooops.
> A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home: > https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home > where some of those articles used mobile phone apps I had forgotten to link to a descriptive photo of the desired task: http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg I'm sure there are gotchas (e.g., is the garage floor really flat?), but it seems doable to measure camber at home if we can answer the main obvious questions which are (I think): Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home? Q: What accuracy can be *attained* with a typical mobile device? Q: Is the repeatability sufficient in a typical home measurement setup? Q: How do we compensate for typical errors (e.g., ride height, flat floor)? What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup? |
#3
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
John Harmon wrote:
> Ooooops. >> A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home: >> https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home >> where some of those articles used mobile phone apps > > I had forgotten to link to a descriptive photo of the desired task: > http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg > > I'm sure there are gotchas (e.g., is the garage floor really flat?), but it > seems doable to measure camber at home if we can answer the main obvious > questions which are (I think): > > Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home? ..01 degree or better. > Q: What accuracy can be *attained* with a typical mobile device? ?????????? don't use one myself > Q: Is the repeatability sufficient in a typical home measurement setup? > Q: How do we compensate for typical errors (e.g., ride height, flat floor)? Same way you do with the machines, Measure the floor and level the machine prior to use. Using an app you could check the floor span where you plan to do the work and zero it out. > > What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel > camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup? How to attach the device to the wheel/hub. -- Steve W. |
#4
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
actually said:
> 0.01deg ?? I don't think so... We really must know to what accuracy we need the measurements to be becuase every measurement tool ever made has this as its basic issue. Do you think it's less, or more accurate that we need for camber measurement? As just one reference, page 8 of this document says that camber (and toe) measurements must be accurate to "2 angular minutes". http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/s...tem%5B1%5D.pdf The question then becomes how to translate 2 angular minutes into inch measurements. On page 10 of that document it says the camber tolerance of another vehicle model is ? 10' (plus or minus 10 minutes). So what is 10 minutes in inches? > If your car doesn't pull to one side and the tire is not wearing un-evenly, > the camber is fine. I realize there are many ways to measure things, and I understand that you're using the tire wear and handling to measure camber, but I would like to try to get a bit finer in granularity (especially since lots of other things can cause both those issues). > I have used an ordinary carpenters bubble level to check it. I have plenty of carpenters bubble levels, one with digital output, so that's also another option. > If it is within 1/4 bubble it should be OK. I understand what you're saying which is that the negative camber on my rear tires can be anywhere between 0 and minus 2 degrees. But I would like to get a bit more accurate than 1/4 bubble! One of my cars specifies the following static camber range, for example: Front (non-adjustable) camber = -0.7? minimum, 0.3? maximum Rear (adjustable) camber = -2.2 ?mimimum, -2.0? maximum ( http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html ) > Most roads have crown so the camber is not as critical as you might think. Some cars compensate for that by specificying cross camber specs, but mine are symmetric. The static negative camber is "supposed" to increase lateral grip. At the same time, it certainly increases inner tire edge wear and decreases straight-line braking traction. On uneven road surfaces, you can get camber thrust (where the tire moves toward the camber). > Problems with this method a > 1 ground where the car is parked needs to be both flat and level Yup. That's a measurement and calibration issue for sure, but luckily, my garage is extremely flat (I measured it once long ago). > 2 ordinary tire bulges out on the bottom, need to set the level > against the tire away from the buldge That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to? > > Sometimes you can simply compare the reading on the front wheels > to the back wheels. This is a good hint, which is that we can just note what the *delta* is between the front and back, and measure that delta, over time, with a handy instrument. > Also note many cars are designed to have the front wheels tilted > inward at the top slightly for stability Mine has negative camber on both front and rear, but front isn't adjustable without adding camber plates. > Unless you like this as a hobby, it probably doesn't pay to DIY. I disagree but I understand your point. On sheer economy, there are only 3 measurements I need for my sedan: 1. toe front 2. toe rear 3. camber rear So all I need, to do a "pragmatic" alignment check, is to check those three. A. If they're off, then I can get the car aligned for $100 or more. B. If they're on target, then I save $100 each time I measure them. > > Measuring toe in is much more fun. On page 14 of the document above, it tells me that the static toe and camber accuracy needs to be: Toe measuring accuracy ?2' in measuring range ?2? in total range ?18? Camber measuring accuracy ?1' in measuring range ?3? in total range ?10? http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches? |
#5
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Steve W. actually said:
>> Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home? > .01 degree or better. Thanks for that answer because this is a critical number we must know to do any aligment reasonably well. If everyone concurs that 0.01 (one hundredth) of a degree is the desired accuracy, I can work with that. One problem with alignment is that we have to be intelligent about converting units because I found this document where, on page 11, it says: Quote:
But I don't (yet) know how to convert 1 minute to inches. Does anyone want to take a stab at how to run that conversion? >> What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel >> camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup? > > How to attach the device to the wheel/hub. It seems to me that a "jig" of some sort needs to be made so that there is a plane on the wheel that is (very precicely) parallel to the wheel to the same 0.01 inches that we need for accuracy. My initial idea is to take this concept to that 0.01 degree: http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg Maybe bolt a flat steel plate to the wheel lugs (luckily, one of my cars uses lug bolts so I can just use longer bolts but my other car uses lug nuts which may make that flat plate bolting on more difficult). |
#6
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On 12/8/2016 11:23 AM, John Harmon wrote:
> Ooooops. >> A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home: >> https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home >> where some of those articles used mobile phone apps > > I had forgotten to link to a descriptive photo of the desired task: > http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg > > I'm sure there are gotchas (e.g., is the garage floor really flat?), but it > seems doable to measure camber at home if we can answer the main obvious > questions which are (I think): > > Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home? > Q: What accuracy can be *attained* with a typical mobile device? > Q: Is the repeatability sufficient in a typical home measurement setup? > Q: How do we compensate for typical errors (e.g., ride height, flat floor)? > > What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel > camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup? > I assume that is the wheel and not a hub cap. I'm guessing your looking for something between 0.5* and 2*, but I want to know. Someone said you need accuracy within .01 degrees, that's 1% of 1 degree. Good luck getting the 18 year old at the tire shop to do that. I'd be happy with 10%, being that it is an adjustable characteristic that can depend on how you want to drive the car, comfort or cornering. I don't have a clue about phone app accuracy, but you can check it. But hey, I've never done it, so don't read my response. Mikek |
#7
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
amdx actually said:
> I assume that is the wheel and not a hub cap. The car I will test this out first on is a bimmer with alloy wheels and lug bolts so both those traits make the task of bolting on a jig easier than if it were a steel wheel with lug nuts. > I'm guessing your looking for something between 0.5* and 2*, but I want > to know. I later found this BMW spec which shows that I need accuracy in 1 or 2 minutes ( http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg ) but how do I convert that 1 and 2 minutes to inches? > Someone said you need accuracy within .01 degrees, that's 1% of 1 > degree. I think he meant inches though. > Good luck getting the 18 year old at the tire shop to do that. > I'd be happy with 10%, being that it is an adjustable characteristic > that can depend on how you want to drive the car, comfort or cornering. I understand that the alignment shop guy might not care all that much to get as accurate as he can. Right now, I think the accuracy needs to be plus or minus one minute for toe and 2 minutes for camber. I just don't know how to convert minutes to inches. |
#8
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
Tekkie? actually said:
>> Measuring toe in is much more fun. > > +1 at least According to this graphic, I need to repeatably measure toe to plus or minus 2 minutes of accuracy and camber to plus or minus 1 minute of accuracy: http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg Static camber will be measured in degrees, so the plus or minus 1 minute of accuracy is easy enough for me to understand. But sttic toe is usually measured in inches, so a problem is how do I convert the 2 minutes of accuracy to a plus or minus inch figure? |
#9
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home
"John Harmon" > > I just don't know how to convert minutes to inches. You can't. Minutes of angle are a function of a triangle. Inches are simply a scalar measurement of distance. |
#10
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Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checkedcamber at home
On 12/8/2016 2:12 PM, John Harmon wrote:
> actually said: > >> 0.01deg ?? I don't think so... > > We really must know to what accuracy we need the measurements to be becuase > every measurement tool ever made has this as its basic issue. > > Do you think it's less, or more accurate that we need for camber > measurement? > > As just one reference, page 8 of this document says that camber (and toe) > measurements must be accurate to "2 angular minutes". > http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/s...tem%5B1%5D.pdf > > The question then becomes how to translate 2 angular minutes into inch > measurements. > > On page 10 of that document it says the camber tolerance of another vehicle > model is ? 10' (plus or minus 10 minutes). > > So what is 10 minutes in inches? > >> If your car doesn't pull to one side and the tire is not wearing un-evenly, >> the camber is fine. > > I realize there are many ways to measure things, and I understand that > you're using the tire wear and handling to measure camber, but I would like > to try to get a bit finer in granularity (especially since lots of other > things can cause both those issues). > >> I have used an ordinary carpenters bubble level to check it. > > I have plenty of carpenters bubble levels, one with digital output, so > that's also another option. > >> If it is within 1/4 bubble it should be OK. > I understand what you're saying which is that the negative camber on my > rear tires can be anywhere between 0 and minus 2 degrees. > > But I would like to get a bit more accurate than 1/4 bubble! > > One of my cars specifies the following static camber range, for example: > Front (non-adjustable) camber = -0.7? minimum, 0.3? maximum > Rear (adjustable) camber = -2.2 ?mimimum, -2.0? maximum > ( http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html ) > >> Most roads have crown so the camber is not as critical as you might think. > > Some cars compensate for that by specificying cross camber specs, but mine > are symmetric. > > The static negative camber is "supposed" to increase lateral grip. At the > same time, it certainly increases inner tire edge wear and decreases > straight-line braking traction. On uneven road surfaces, you can get camber > thrust (where the tire moves toward the camber). > >> Problems with this method a >> 1 ground where the car is parked needs to be both flat and level > > Yup. That's a measurement and calibration issue for sure, but luckily, my > garage is extremely flat (I measured it once long ago). > >> 2 ordinary tire bulges out on the bottom, need to set the level >> against the tire away from the buldge > > That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best > to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to? A jig, if you can't use the actual wheel. >> >> Sometimes you can simply compare the reading on the front wheels >> to the back wheels. > > This is a good hint, which is that we can just note what the *delta* is > between the front and back, and measure that delta, over time, with a handy > instrument. > >> Also note many cars are designed to have the front wheels tilted >> inward at the top slightly for stability > > Mine has negative camber on both front and rear, but front isn't adjustable > without adding camber plates. > >> Unless you like this as a hobby, it probably doesn't pay to DIY. > > I disagree but I understand your point. > On sheer economy, there are only 3 measurements I need for my sedan: > 1. toe front > 2. toe rear > 3. camber rear > > So all I need, to do a "pragmatic" alignment check, is to check those > three. > A. If they're off, then I can get the car aligned for $100 or more. > B. If they're on target, then I save $100 each time I measure them. >> >> Measuring toe in is much more fun. > > On page 14 of the document above, it tells me that the static toe and > camber accuracy needs to be: > Toe measuring accuracy ?2' in measuring range ?2? in total range ?18? > Camber measuring accuracy ?1' in measuring range ?3? in total range ?10? > http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg > > Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches? > No, But 30 min is equal to 0.5 degrees. Mikek |
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