Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

jim beam wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> 8<
>
>>
>> But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the bolts
>> through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod
>> knock that actually did throw a rod.
>
>
> no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was gone,
> the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem.
>

Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem, as it was a 3.5l straight
six, which "never go" so junkyard motors were readily available. And
the car wasn't worth more than a junkyard motor.

>
> 8<
>
>>
>> But you can tell easily when the OP is different than you've been lead
>> to expect from previous use of the car, especially when it's
>> significantly lower. Whether or not that actually means that the oil
>> film is compromised is irrelevant,
>
>
> "irrelevant"??? dude, that is /so/ wrong.

That's where you're just not getting it - *any* anomaly is relevant.
When you see an anomaly, you need to figure out why the anomaly
occurred, *before* you have an actual failure.

>
> 8<
>
>>
>> Easy. I look at the gauge and see if the temperature is above or below
>> the temperature at which the fan is supposed to activate.
>
>
> but it doesn't show anything until it's /way/ above activation. that
> doesn't help you per your argument.


What do you mean? I can sit there at a stop light, watch the gauge
creep up to about 210-ish, fan kicks in, temp quickly drops back to
195ish. That's the difference between 3/4 of the way through the
"normal" bar and 1/4 of the "normal" bar on my 944. If it ever creeps
over 3/4 without the fan kicking in, that's an issue. And yes, I *did*
detect a bad fan thermoswitch that way, before the car ever actually
overheated. Was maybe $20 and some coolant to fix, as opposed to an
expensive head gasket job.

>
> 8<
>
>>
>> Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about
>> sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At
>> some point you should hear a "click" from the relay box, and the cooling
>> fan should come on. Without a gauge, however, if you don't hear that
>> click/whir, you don't have a clue as to whether the engine simply hasn't
>> heated up to the point where the fan should come on yet, or if it's
>> getting good and hot and there's an actual fault, either in the
>> thermostat or the cooling fan control circuit. *WITH* a gauge, you
>> aren't guessing; you KNOW.
>
>
> absolutely not - the gauge stays rock steady during the whole on-off delta.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2445120839/

No it doesn't. Not with a finely calibrated gauge. What you show is
not the behavior of a real gauge. I don't deny that some mfgrs. may
adopt that strategy to avoid extraneous comments from idiots, but that
is a failure of education and IMHO the wrong way to handle the issue.
Apparently Porsche does not subscribe to this philosophy, which is one
of many reasons that I remain partial to their cars.

>
>
>
> 8<
>
>>
>> No, I fixed an old car that according to you probably needed a full
>> engine rebuild.
>
>
> no, you wasted money on band-aiding something that probably failed at
> the same point as it would have anyway.

That explains why it was driven for 4-5 years afterwards as primary
transportation.

>
> 8<
>
>>
>> No, as I said, I FIXED an old car that according to you needed a new
>> engine.
>
>
> you band-aided, you didn't fix.

See above.

>
>
> 8<
>
> >
>
>> It most certainly does. Regrinding a usable crank is cheaper than
>> buying a new one or paying to have one welded up. Resizing your
>> existing con rods is cheaper than buying new ones. Reboring a block is
>> cheaper than buying a new one. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
>
>
> dude, labor is expensive. it takes many hours to rebuild a motor. to
> get it done to a high standard is going to cost you thousands. a new
> one, factory new, for my car, is $3,640. once you factor in time to
> replace, and down time, - i.e. you get the new motor shipped in, take
> the old one out, fit the new one, and drive away vs. having the vehicle
> occupy shop space stripped down for a few weeks while the motor gets
> done, then replacing new - it becomes much more economic. factor in
> superior reliability and longevity, and it becomes more economic still.

Depends on what car we're talking about. For some older vehicles, your
options may be "junkyard" (either in the sense of "roll the dice and
acquire used engine from" or "start searching the classifieds and send
what's left of car to") or "rebuild."

>
> or you can pay ~$300 for jdm.

That's all well and good, *if* you have a popular Japanese car and *if*
it is new enough that there's still a good supply of JDM engines.

> 8<
>
>>
>> Again, I think you're being deliberately dumb to keep this conversation
>> going, for what purpose, I don't know.
>
>
> dude, i'm serious. how can a gauge /prevent/ a bearing going? it
> can't. all it does is give you an increased chance of seeing that it's
> about to go, but it can't prevent it.

And that's not important? Say, if you're planning a long road trip
halfway across the country, wouldn't it be nice to have that information
*before* you left, rather than discover it the hard way halfway between
Cleveland and Toledo?

Heck, I had an alternator fail on me once in just such a situation. It
was a royal PITA and quite expensive to boot. Had I a proper voltmeter
in that car, I might have seen some signs of that before I took off from
Detroit heading to Annapolis, and saved me an expen$ive tow, repair
bill, and hotel room by having the issue rectified before I left.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the bolts
>>> through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod
>>> knock that actually did throw a rod.
>>
>>
>> no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was gone,
>> the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem.
>>
>
> Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem, as it was a 3.5l straight
> six, which "never go" so junkyard motors were readily available. And
> the car wasn't worth more than a junkyard motor.
>
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> But you can tell easily when the OP is different than you've been lead
>>> to expect from previous use of the car, especially when it's
>>> significantly lower. Whether or not that actually means that the oil
>>> film is compromised is irrelevant,
>>
>>
>> "irrelevant"??? dude, that is /so/ wrong.
>
> That's where you're just not getting it - *any* anomaly is relevant.
> When you see an anomaly, you need to figure out why the anomaly
> occurred, *before* you have an actual failure.
>
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> Easy. I look at the gauge and see if the temperature is above or below
>>> the temperature at which the fan is supposed to activate.
>>
>>
>> but it doesn't show anything until it's /way/ above activation. that
>> doesn't help you per your argument.
>
>
> What do you mean? I can sit there at a stop light, watch the gauge
> creep up to about 210-ish, fan kicks in, temp quickly drops back to
> 195ish. That's the difference between 3/4 of the way through the
> "normal" bar and 1/4 of the "normal" bar on my 944. If it ever creeps
> over 3/4 without the fan kicking in, that's an issue. And yes, I *did*
> detect a bad fan thermoswitch that way, before the car ever actually
> overheated. Was maybe $20 and some coolant to fix, as opposed to an
> expensive head gasket job.
>
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about
>>> sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At
>>> some point you should hear a "click" from the relay box, and the cooling
>>> fan should come on. Without a gauge, however, if you don't hear that
>>> click/whir, you don't have a clue as to whether the engine simply hasn't
>>> heated up to the point where the fan should come on yet, or if it's
>>> getting good and hot and there's an actual fault, either in the
>>> thermostat or the cooling fan control circuit. *WITH* a gauge, you
>>> aren't guessing; you KNOW.
>>
>>
>> absolutely not - the gauge stays rock steady during the whole on-off
>> delta.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2445120839/
>
> No it doesn't. Not with a finely calibrated gauge. What you show is
> not the behavior of a real gauge. I don't deny that some mfgrs. may
> adopt that strategy to avoid extraneous comments from idiots, but that
> is a failure of education and IMHO the wrong way to handle the issue.
> Apparently Porsche does not subscribe to this philosophy, which is one
> of many reasons that I remain partial to their cars.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> No, I fixed an old car that according to you probably needed a full
>>> engine rebuild.
>>
>>
>> no, you wasted money on band-aiding something that probably failed at
>> the same point as it would have anyway.
>
> That explains why it was driven for 4-5 years afterwards as primary
> transportation.
>
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> No, as I said, I FIXED an old car that according to you needed a new
>>> engine.
>>
>>
>> you band-aided, you didn't fix.
>
> See above.
>
>>
>>
>> 8<
>>
>> >
>>
>>> It most certainly does. Regrinding a usable crank is cheaper than
>>> buying a new one or paying to have one welded up. Resizing your
>>> existing con rods is cheaper than buying new ones. Reboring a block is
>>> cheaper than buying a new one. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
>>
>>
>> dude, labor is expensive. it takes many hours to rebuild a motor. to
>> get it done to a high standard is going to cost you thousands. a new
>> one, factory new, for my car, is $3,640. once you factor in time to
>> replace, and down time, - i.e. you get the new motor shipped in, take
>> the old one out, fit the new one, and drive away vs. having the
>> vehicle occupy shop space stripped down for a few weeks while the
>> motor gets done, then replacing new - it becomes much more economic.
>> factor in superior reliability and longevity, and it becomes more
>> economic still.
>
> Depends on what car we're talking about. For some older vehicles, your
> options may be "junkyard" (either in the sense of "roll the dice and
> acquire used engine from" or "start searching the classifieds and send
> what's left of car to") or "rebuild."

Or, buy a rebuilt engine. People in Mexico have been rebuilding for
cheap for decades. Labor is cheap there. They buy bearings, rings, etc.,
in bulk. And they have a pretty good warranty. Just buy the engine, swap
it out when it comes, and return the old one.

You can also buy a rebuilt engine at AutoZone and other retailers,
although I would be leary of the quality.

Jeff

>>
>> or you can pay ~$300 for jdm.
>
> That's all well and good, *if* you have a popular Japanese car and *if*
> it is new enough that there's still a good supply of JDM engines.
>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> Again, I think you're being deliberately dumb to keep this conversation
>>> going, for what purpose, I don't know.
>>
>>
>> dude, i'm serious. how can a gauge /prevent/ a bearing going? it
>> can't. all it does is give you an increased chance of seeing that
>> it's about to go, but it can't prevent it.
>
> And that's not important? Say, if you're planning a long road trip
> halfway across the country, wouldn't it be nice to have that information
> *before* you left, rather than discover it the hard way halfway between
> Cleveland and Toledo?
>
> Heck, I had an alternator fail on me once in just such a situation. It
> was a royal PITA and quite expensive to boot. Had I a proper voltmeter
> in that car, I might have seen some signs of that before I took off from
> Detroit heading to Annapolis, and saved me an expen$ive tow, repair
> bill, and hotel room by having the issue rectified before I left.
>
> nate
>

Nate Nagel wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>>
>>> But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the bolts
>>> through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod
>>> knock that actually did throw a rod.
>>
>>
>> no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was gone,
>> the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem.
>>
>
> Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem,

ok, let's get this straight:

i. your experience count is 1.
ii. you didn't determine the cause of failure.

but you still feel qualified to lecture on bearing failure? i'm done -
this thread is a ****ing joke.

jim beam wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>> 8<
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the
>>>> bolts
>>>> through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod
>>>> knock that actually did throw a rod.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was gone,
>>> the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem,
>
>
> ok, let's get this straight:
>
> i. your experience count is 1.
> ii. you didn't determine the cause of failure.
>
> but you still feel qualified to lecture on bearing failure? i'm done -
> this thread is a ****ing joke.

I'm not lecturing on bearing failure at all. Simply pointing out
various situations that I've been in where either gauges have helped me
or, if they'd been present (but they weren't) *could* have helped me.
Why you can't seem to understand that they are valuable tools that give
you important information on the health of your car's engine is beyond
me, even though we both can at least agree that many drivers do treat
them as if they're simply wallpaper.

Door, butt, etc.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 8<
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the
>>>>> bolts
>>>>> through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod
>>>>> knock that actually did throw a rod.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was
>>>> gone, the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem,
>>
>>
>> ok, let's get this straight:
>>
>> i. your experience count is 1.
>> ii. you didn't determine the cause of failure.
>>
>> but you still feel qualified to lecture on bearing failure? i'm done
>> - this thread is a ****ing joke.
>
> I'm not lecturing on bearing failure at all. Simply pointing out
> various situations that I've been in where either gauges have helped me
> or, if they'd been present (but they weren't) *could* have helped me.
> Why you can't seem to understand that they are valuable tools that give
> you important information on the health of your car's engine is beyond
> me, even though we both can at least agree that many drivers do treat
> them as if they're simply wallpaper.

keep on deluding yourself. fact: no gauge can /prevent/ bearing
failure. it can [debateably] offer you the opportunity to stop driving
it, but the value of that is questionable. and you still need to
undertake expensive surgery, regardless.



>
> Door, butt, etc.

get some more schooling and experience kiddo.

jim beam wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 8<
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the
>>>>>> bolts
>>>>>> through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod
>>>>>> knock that actually did throw a rod.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was
>>>>> gone, the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ok, let's get this straight:
>>>
>>> i. your experience count is 1.
>>> ii. you didn't determine the cause of failure.
>>>
>>> but you still feel qualified to lecture on bearing failure? i'm done
>>> - this thread is a ****ing joke.
>>
>>
>> I'm not lecturing on bearing failure at all. Simply pointing out
>> various situations that I've been in where either gauges have helped
>> me or, if they'd been present (but they weren't) *could* have helped
>> me. Why you can't seem to understand that they are valuable tools that
>> give you important information on the health of your car's engine is
>> beyond me, even though we both can at least agree that many drivers do
>> treat them as if they're simply wallpaper.
>
>
> keep on deluding yourself. fact: no gauge can /prevent/ bearing
> failure. it can [debateably] offer you the opportunity to stop driving
> it, but the value of that is questionable. and you still need to
> undertake expensive surgery, regardless.

Not just bearing failure. Also other kinds of failures that may be
positively inexpensive and easy to rectify that could *lead to* the
expensive kind of failures if left as is.

>>
>> Door, butt, etc.
>
>
> get some more schooling and experience kiddo.

I may not be the oldest guy on this group, but I've logged lots of miles
driving cars that many people would consider well past their "best
before" date and/or were self-assembled, so I have a pretty good handle
on what I want to see on a dashboard to feel comfortable with a machine.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>
>>I may not be the oldest guy on this group, but I've logged lots of miles
>>driving cars that many people would consider well past their "best
>>before" date and/or were self-assembled, so I have a pretty good handle
>>on what I want to see on a dashboard to feel comfortable with a machine.
>
>
> Now we get to the crux of the matter: you're driving older cars, in
> some cases seriously older cars, and you know that as cars age they
> develop quirks.
>
> And you know that to keep driving them as they age, you need a 747
> cockpit full of instrumentation.
>
> That's way, WAY different than the original proposition that "cars need
> gauges". That's way, WAY different than the neighbor's ditzy 16yo
> daughter driving the new Rabbit convertible that daddy just bought her.
>
> Way, WAY different.
>

As I recall, the Wabbit 'verts came with the usual Wabbit gauge package
(speedo, tach, fuel, water temp,) plus a voltmeter, oil pressure, and
oil temp gauge in front of the shifter. Even better than the A1 GTI
which got a damn clock instead of the oil pressure gauge. So I'm not
sure where you're going with this :P

nate

(if I were a real jerk, I'd point out that the last Wabbit was made in
1984, and the last A1 chassis Cabby was made in 1993, so the newest car
you could call a "Rabbit Convertible" probably falls into the category
of "well past their best before date" <G> but if you know of any you
want to get rid of, I still have a good sized stash of cool VW parts
looking for a builder chassis... Why the hell did I sell my Scirocco?)

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Elmo P. Shagnasty > wrote:
>In article >,
> (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> >If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow
>> >the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow
>> >the lights on the dash that say "take the car in for service A"--then
>> >the gauges are a complete waste of money and dash real estate.
>>
>> Probably, but so is much of the rest of the car.
>
>The original claim was that most people can't maintain their cars
>halfway decently.
>
>And yet, the sales of cars seems to be through the roof--even high end
>cars.

Yes, that's true. If you don't maintain your car properly, you have to
buy a new one long before you would if you were more careful. Poor
maintenance _increases_ auto sales.

>Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste of
>money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars are
>buying Lexus cars hand over fist.

If you don't do regular maintenance, any car is a complete waste of money,
because it won't be worth much for long.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Elmo P. Shagnasty > wrote:
>In article >,
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>> > rubbish!!! the gauges actually in cars don't give you detailed info.
>>
>> this may be true. However, that doesn't negate the usefulness of
>> proper, calibrated gauges.
>
>See my comment elsewhere in this thread. A properly crafted computer
>program can do a much better job watching a MUCH wider range of
>measurements and integrate those measurements into a program that knows
>what to look out for.

This is true.

>It is doing more things faster than the human could do.

This is not true. Just because it CAN do a better job doesn't mean anyone
is bothering to make it do so.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Elmo P. Shagnasty > wrote:
>In article >,
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>> > fan operation doesn't show on the gauge.
>>
>> Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about
>> sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At
>> some point you should hear a "click" from the relay box, and the cooling
>> fan should come on.
>
>Are you honestly telling me that the car buying public operates their
>cars on this basis?
>
>Fact: they don't.

That's not my fault.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."