Clutch bolts and locktite

On 26 Jul 2018 16:51:31 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
> before assembly?

Ah. No. I didn't even think of that.
Luckily it must fit - but that is a GREAT idea as a double check!

> If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
> shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.

I jiggled with my head by the differential and my feet up on the
transmission (boy am I glad I removed the crossmember!) and jiggled that
transmission like it was a bowl of jelly. Something in all that jiggling
worked!

> Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
> Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.

Thanks for that idea of the drive shaft. It's right here, but it never
occurred to me to use it. Now I know! Thanks.

I wonder if it's normal to have to move the transmission front shaft by
about 1/16 of an inch or so to make sure the splines line up with those
inside the pressure plate and clutch disc?

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

On 26 Jul 2018 17:50:07 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

>>I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
>>How do you rotate it?
>
> Stick the driveshaft in.

Hi Clare,
I didn't think of that!

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

Anyway, yet again, your answer came too late, but it's good to know as I
would have asked why on earth people said to put the transmission in the
high (fifth) gear, since that's the *only* step where it's needed (any gear
works fine for the rest of the transmission job).

I tried to use pliers on the shaft on the back of the transmission but
there's absolutely zero chance you'll spin it that way.

What I ended up doing was loosening the straps on the transmission jack and
then putting my head way back at the differential, and my feet on the back
of the transmission and I jiggled the transmission like it was a bowl of
jello.

When I went forward to look at the effect, voila, the bolts were lined up
and slid onto my two 17mm diameter threaded 3-inch dowels (which were a
Godsend, where I'm super happy that I machined them!).

I didn't use any loctite because I want to put all the bolts in first, and
then snug them up, and then remove one by one, to loctite blue when I'm
actually ready to torque them.

At this point, I don't have any questions as I'm just at the stage of
putting back the myriad bolts and sensors and fluid.

I have two now-old questions that I would love more detail on, both of
which are about "alignment" of the transmission shaft.

1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

2. When I got stuck in the last inch or two on the transmission, I didn't
know why it wouldn't go that last inch. I thought of what it could be and
the most likely was that I was off center with the flywheel but it could
also have been maybe that the splines weren't lined up? If the splines
weren't lined up, would that stop the clutch from going in, or, would they
just line themselves up while I jiggled (something in that jiggling worked,
but what)?

I must repeat that neither of those two questions is critical because I'm
past that stage, but I'm curious about what exactly is aligned by the
plastic tool, and whether the splines in the end will line up on their own
with just jiggling or if the drive shaft is needed.

If the drive shaft is needed, it must only twist a teeny tiny amount,
because how much twisting could it take to align those splines (1/16th
inch?).

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

On 07/26/2018 07:51 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> 1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
> alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
> transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
> notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
> what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

If the clutch plate was aligned with the pilot bushing when you bolted
down the pressure plate you would know what the tool was for. How would
you align it without the tool?

On 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Which is best for dropping the transmission?

SOLVED!

It's done. I am gonna take it for a smoke test.

The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),
and the alignment tool that came with the clutch kit, and the assortment of
extension bars, and the two M12x1.25 3-inch threaded dowels.

In the end, I removed more than is necessary, but I'm glad I did remove the
front wheels (particularly the driver side), the front sway bar, the entire
harness (every bolt and every sensor), and the cross member.

The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people. I did
everything else alone. The second hardest task was lining up the
transmission to go in because you're staring at a hunk of aluminum not
knowing why it won't move forward.

The top two 17mm bell housing bolts were not easy, but not all that
difficult with 30 inches of extensions and swivels.

Pouring the new Redline MT-90 into the conning tower turns out to be the
*easiest* way to refill a transmission, bar none.

Having four 15-inch jack stands was instrumental, as I needed at least 23
inches of clearance from the frame to get the transmission in and out.

The actual transmission work was easy, including the diaphragm, the pilot
bearing, the throwout bearing, and the fork, but I would have liked thicker
grease on the fork (but I only had Mobil 1 bearing grease).

I wrote up a detailed DIY so that others could benefit from all the work,
and I took hundreds of pictures. I don't know if I'll ever associate the
pictures with each task, but I'll try to help others.

Thanks for all your advice and help. If there is a bedding procedure, now
is the time to let me know! Pictures later.

I very much appreciate you help, because it's my first clutch job ever and
I have nobody around me who knows anything about cars - so your advice was
instrumental!

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:
>
>> Which is best for dropping the transmission?
>
> SOLVED!
>
> It's done. I am gonna take it for a smoke test.
>
> The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),
> and the alignment tool that came with the clutch kit, and the assortment of
> extension bars, and the two M12x1.25 3-inch threaded dowels.
>
> In the end, I removed more than is necessary, but I'm glad I did remove the
> front wheels (particularly the driver side), the front sway bar, the entire
> harness (every bolt and every sensor), and the cross member.
>
> The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
> back in, which is the only job that really required two people. I did
> everything else alone. The second hardest task was lining up the
> transmission to go in because you're staring at a hunk of aluminum not
> knowing why it won't move forward.
>
> The top two 17mm bell housing bolts were not easy, but not all that
> difficult with 30 inches of extensions and swivels.
>
> Pouring the new Redline MT-90 into the conning tower turns out to be the
> *easiest* way to refill a transmission, bar none.
>
> Having four 15-inch jack stands was instrumental, as I needed at least 23
> inches of clearance from the frame to get the transmission in and out.
>
> The actual transmission work was easy, including the diaphragm, the pilot
> bearing, the throwout bearing, and the fork, but I would have liked thicker
> grease on the fork (but I only had Mobil 1 bearing grease).
>
> I wrote up a detailed DIY so that others could benefit from all the work,
> and I took hundreds of pictures. I don't know if I'll ever associate the
> pictures with each task, but I'll try to help others.
>
> Thanks for all your advice and help. If there is a bedding procedure, now
> is the time to let me know! Pictures later.
>
> I very much appreciate you help, because it's my first clutch job ever and
> I have nobody around me who knows anything about cars - so your advice was
> instrumental!
>

Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
for a while before you lean hard on it.

On 27 Jul 2018 17:20:42 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

> Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
> for a while before you lean hard on it.

Thanks for that advice. I took it on a flat road and up a hill but not yet
on the highway as it's kind of far so I'll let the driver do that.

I did stall it a couple of times when I was doing a first and reverse K
turn, which is strange but that's because it used to grab almost at the top
of the clutch pedal return, and even then, it had grabbed smoothly (since
it was super worn).

Now it grabs much earlier and very firmly on the pedal uplift. Much earlier
than it did before. But that old clutch had something like 90K miles on it,
and about 10 years of driving, so a difference in feel is to be expected.

It's a self-adjusting (so to speak, but really that just means it's
hydraulic) so there's nothing to adjust but pedal play to the master
cylinder.

I'll deal with that adjustment later, as I've done it before and it's
really not a hard science it seems, as there's nothing but a bit of free
play to measure (you can't really measure it ... you just feel for it).

BTW, it's a stock 1:1 replacement for the 900 foot pound original clutch,
where the Marlin Crawler outfit sells a 1200 pound clutch that they 'say'
is better but I can't imagine what more foot pounds will do for a clutch
since the engine only develops something like 250 foot pounds (which may
not be the same type since one is angular and the other maybe not).

Anyway, everything is working - where I appreciate the help because it was
my first clutch, which took more than twice as long as I had thought it
would take and where, with your help, I did everything alone except for the
starter motor replacement - where a friend helped me.

It feels good to finally know what a pilot bearing is, and where it goes,
and how it goes in, and how it comes out. Likewise with the throwout
bearing.

I did test Clare's suggestion on the old clutch plate and diaphragm where I
can see now that gravity will pull it down off center which will then be
bolted off center if I don't use the alignment tool. With the alignment
tool, there was no alignment problem (other than having to jiggle the
bejesus out of the transmission to get the splines to line up).

Another thing Clare and others suggested was to spin the transmission
through the driveshaft, which turned out to be very easy when I tried it.


Overall, I'm glad I did it, as there are some jobs that are too big to do
at home, where lots of people consider this one of them. I feel like I
graduated, a bit, into an elite group, who has done a clutch at least once.

On 07/27/2018 06:13 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),

I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor. Then I found you
could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
going back in that way.

> The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
> back in, which is the only job that really required two people.

https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-...nch-JDE80.html

Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
shove it into the body.

On 07/27/2018 06:20 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
> Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
> for a while before you lean hard on it.

Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

Or there is the other school of break-in -- drive it like you stole it.

On 27 Jul 2018 18:08:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor.

I have heard of that, and, truth be told, this transmission was light
enough for me to move around in my hands, but, I'd *never* do the job
without that transmission jack. Too much chance of getting tired and
getting hurt if it doesn't go in or out on schedule.

I admire anyone who has removed a transmission without a jack!

> Then I found you
> could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
> pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
> got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
> going back in that way.

Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.

I don't like the jack I got, but it did the job. It could adjust side to
side and up and down, but not much on the down because the handle hit the
bottom of the transmission (poor design). I had to bolt on a piece of 3/4
inch scrap to raise the transmission away from the knob.

>
>> The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
>> back in, which is the only job that really required two people.
>
> https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-...nch-JDE80.html

Something like that wrench might have worked. I tried every 14mm tool in my
repertoire, and finally I got it. There's no way I was gonna get a torque
wrench on it though, so, at 30 pounds, I just guessed.

> Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
> photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
> wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
> the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
> shove it into the body.

The problem was that the two bolts were blocked by almost everything no
matte rwhat direction you came at them.

If you tried from above, you could barely put a fingertip on the upper
bolt. If you tried from the wheel well, you could get only one hand. And
if you tried from below, you couldn't see what you're doing.

It was horrid.
But that part is over thank God.

Really - the hardest part, in hindsight, other than not knowing what to do,
was that starter motor. I'm glad it's over with. (It's my first starter
motor too.)

If I do it again, I'd pick up all the shapes of 14mm wrenches that God has
designed, hoping that one of them would be the perfect shape!

On 07/27/2018 07:23 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
> all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
> wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.

The 3 and 4 speed transmissions with aluminum housings don't weigh that
much. Particularly when you're twenty.

The Chrysler otoh was a piece of work. It was very early in the
development of automatics so it had both a clutch and a fluid coupling.

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/m6.html

The moment of truth was when I took the whole weight and realized I
might be going for a personal best bench press.

The rest of the car followed suit. It was a straight 8, cast iron block
of course. No power steering. It was pleasant on the highway but my wife
used words I didn't think she knew trying to parallel park the beast.

They don't make cars like that anymore. Thank the Gods. At about 4500
pounds 0 to 60 took a while. My '62 Continental weighed in over 5000
pounds but it had a modern 430 ci V-8 and was a supercar compared to a
flat head straight 8 that was designed in the early '30s.