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  #11  
Old June 25th 08, 09:09 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
Pszemol
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Posts: 400
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"Larry in AZ" > wrote in message .. .
> Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elle" >
> said:
>
>> "Pszemol" > wrote
>>> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
>>> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
>>> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
>>> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around for inspections
>>> spending money and time to find one.

>>
>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>> should not buy such old cars.
>>
>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
>> stand to save a lot of money.

>
> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let him fix it up for
> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver for anyone.


That was exactly my feeling about it.
I would not take my family for a ride in anything '89
especially if I did not owned it for the last 10 years
and I am not really sure what the previous owner did
to the car - this is the case when you BUY that old car.
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  #12  
Old June 25th 08, 09:16 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
Pszemol
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Posts: 400
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"Elle" > wrote in message ...
> "Larry in AZ" >
> Elle wrote
>>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>>> should not buy such old cars.
>>>
>>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on
>>> them
>>> stand to save a lot of money.

>>
>> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let
>> him fix it up for
>> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver
>> for anyone.

>
> For anyone who has taken their c. 1990 Honda beyond 200k
> miles, a second Honda with 120k miles original engine or
> 163k miles body and 70k mile engine can result in a daily
> driver.


I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
No head gasket problems or any other major things to worry.
But I KNOW THIS CAR! Every day of its history since May'98.
It does not mean I would seek a camry that old from a stranger.

No matter how much time you spend inspecting the car at the
seller location there will always be something that can
surprise you after the purchase and cost you in a long run...

Look yourself at your original post - how many cars you
have already seen and rejected? How much time and gas
you spent driving there to look for them? How long more
you are going to look for this crazy-cool'89 civic deal?

Is it really worth so much trouble? :-)
Maybe is not rational anymore but just emotional? ;-)
  #13  
Old June 25th 08, 09:39 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
Pszemol
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Posts: 400
Default Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"jim beam" > wrote in message t...
> rubbish. mine's a daily driver. and at 40mpg freeway, you can bet
> that's serious too.


Freeway 40mpg? I think it is just average for a small car like civic.
You should achive it easily with modern models of nissan sentra.

I make 32mpg easily on my 4-cyl 2004 accord coupe EX-L.
And it is not just freeway for me, its probably mixed 80/20.

My 1995 camry does not perform as good anymore @ 246k miles.
  #14  
Old June 26th 08, 06:54 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
jim beam
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Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> Pszemol wrote:
>>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in the
>>>> bay area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go nuts for
>>>> them. even harder to find now that gas prices are high.
>>>
>>>
>>> If this is true that this car is in demand beween ricing
>>> enthusiasts than it will be very hard to compete them
>>> for somebody who is looking for an economy car...

>>
>> the price is being bid up by people wanting gas sippers as well - even
>> more demand than usual. but you can still get a sedan for under $1k,
>> it's the hatchbacks that are in demand.

>
> I see...
>
>>> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
>>> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
>>> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
>>> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
>>> for inspections spending money and time to find one.
>>> Then, when you find one it will not be over...
>>> Is your main goal not to have montly payments? You
>>> *will* be paying montly (or weekly) payments anyway
>>> but to the local parts store instead to the bank and live
>>> in constant fear that the car will crap out on you in the
>>> middle of the trip spoiling a day and causing you some
>>> towing costs..

>>
>> eh? "constant fear"??? statistically, a new car has a greater
>> probability of failure than one that's in the middle of its life.
>> [bathtub curve]. at 176k miles, my civic is in the middle of its
>> life. there are certain weakness in this vintage civic, main relay
>> being the most notable, but it doesn't cost much to sort that stuff out.

>
> Main relay, or - bigger problem like head gasket.
> I am seeing blown head gasket the major fear of
> older civic owners compared to other japaneese cars.


in my experience, gasket only fails after the radiator cracks and the
motor cooks. the gasket goes about a year later. moral of the story,
replace the radiator every 10 years.



>
>>> Does not seem to be such a bargain to me,
>>> but you know, I am very spoiled ;-)

>>
>> as elle says, if you know these vehicles, you can save a bunch of
>> dough. my 2000 civic depreciated at about $1,100 per year that i
>> owned it. i couldn't spend that much a year in maintenance on my 89
>> if i wanted to. and the 89 has APpreciated in value since i bought
>> it, not DEpreciated.

>
> But compare the benefits of driving 2000 year model year with 89.
> Yes, it is more expensive but it is a better car overall.


i strongly disagree. my 89 is a much superior vehicle to the 2000.
better handling, better interior, better ergonomics, better power to
weight...

only thing going for the 2000 is full electronic control of the
automatic transmission, but the benefit of that is marginal, especially
if the mechanical auto transmission is properly adjusted and has the
right fluid.


>
>> and that's not accounting for the fact that certain models are better
>> than others. imo, the 88-91 civic/crx is about the best car honda
>> ever produced. i've tested/owned subsequent models of civic and they
>> neither handle as well, nor are as comfortable as these first "real
>> deal" 4-wheel wishbone civics. so that's why i drive them - they're
>> the best.

>
> I am glad you are so enthusiastic about this little car :-)

  #15  
Old June 26th 08, 07:12 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
jim beam
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Posts: 1,796
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Pszemol wrote:
> "Elle" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Larry in AZ" >
>> Elle wrote
>>>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>>>> should not buy such old cars.
>>>>
>>>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
>>>> stand to save a lot of money.
>>>
>>> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let him fix it
>>> up for
>>> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver for anyone.

>>
>> For anyone who has taken their c. 1990 Honda beyond 200k miles, a
>> second Honda with 120k miles original engine or 163k miles body and
>> 70k mile engine can result in a daily driver.

>
> I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
> Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
> No head gasket problems or any other major things to worry.
> But I KNOW THIS CAR! Every day of its history since May'98.
> It does not mean I would seek a camry that old from a stranger.
>
> No matter how much time you spend inspecting the car at the
> seller location there will always be something that can
> surprise you after the purchase and cost you in a long run...
>
> Look yourself at your original post - how many cars you
> have already seen and rejected? How much time and gas
> you spent driving there to look for them? How long more
> you are going to look for this crazy-cool'89 civic deal?
>
> Is it really worth so much trouble? :-)
> Maybe is not rational anymore but just emotional? ;-)


but that's exactly the situation with your rejection of the older
vehicle! it can be completely rational to purchase it if you know what
you're doing and the price is right!
  #16  
Old June 26th 08, 07:14 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
jim beam
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Posts: 1,796
Default Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Pszemol wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> rubbish. mine's a daily driver. and at 40mpg freeway, you can bet
>> that's serious too.

>
> Freeway 40mpg? I think it is just average for a small car like civic.
> You should achive it easily with modern models of nissan sentra.
>
> I make 32mpg easily on my 4-cyl 2004 accord coupe EX-L.
> And it is not just freeway for me, its probably mixed 80/20.
>
> My 1995 camry does not perform as good anymore @ 246k miles.


there's a bunch of things you can do that might help. egr valve, tw
sensor, valve lash... - it needs a little love.
  #17  
Old June 26th 08, 02:55 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
Elle[_2_]
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Posts: 81
Default Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Pszemol" > wrote
> I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
> Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
> No head gasket problems or any other major things to
> worry.
> But I KNOW THIS CAR!


Agreed, not knowing the history is one of the drawbacks of
buying a secondhand (or thirdhand or more) car. Carfax
helps a lot. I reject a car with too many owners in too
short a time, for example, of which there are many out
there, at least on Craigs List where I am.

I am seeing consistently that the little c. 1990 Civic
hatchbacks feel somewhat too much like a death trap. The DXs
and base model hatchbacks do not have power steering, plus
the suspension bushings generally seem worn (though I could
fix this), so the road feel is generally lousy. Then too
they are small and cramped. Great mileage, but I like
feeling a little more like I am not the smallest, most
vulnerable vehicle on the road.

Only one of the circa 1990 Civics I have seen had what I
would call very good a/c. It also had a great body and 166k
mileage, with only two owners. I made an offer on it, but as
JBeam observes, offering more than KBB was not quite enough,
and it got snatched at a significantly higher price before I
could counter. I was testing the waters. Now I am seeing
good, newer c. 1995 Civics sell within two hours on Craigs
List.

Having driven a few 95-97 Civics now, I am leaning towards
spending more and making this second car the one that will
replace my 91 Civic in a few years. Meanwhile my friend will
use the newer one for commuting in summer, then use my 91
Civic (no a/c) the rest of the year.

Like you were saying when comparing cars, the newer ones
have a much much better feel. I am not in a rush. Which
means I end up saving as much as a few thousand dollars.


  #18  
Old June 26th 08, 11:18 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
L Alpert[_1_]
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Posts: 92
Default Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org


"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> t...
>> i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in
>> the bay area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go
>> nuts for them. even harder to find now that gas prices are high.

>
>
> If this is true that this car is in demand beween ricing
> enthusiasts than it will be very hard to compete them
> for somebody who is looking for an economy car...
>
> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
> for inspections spending money and time to find one.
> Then, when you find one it will not be over...
> Is your main goal not to have montly payments? You
> *will* be paying montly (or weekly) payments anyway
> but to the local parts store instead to the bank and live
> in constant fear that the car will crap out on you in the
> middle of the trip spoiling a day and causing you some
> towing costs..
>
> Does not seem to be such a bargain to me,
> but you know, I am very spoiled ;-)


California cars rarely rust. There are many older vehicles available
that are in very good physical condition. If well maintained, they
can be fairly trouble free vehicles......


  #19  
Old June 27th 08, 03:15 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
jim beam
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Posts: 1,796
Default Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Elle wrote:
> "Pszemol" > wrote
>> I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
>> Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
>> No head gasket problems or any other major things to
>> worry.
>> But I KNOW THIS CAR!

>
> Agreed, not knowing the history is one of the drawbacks of
> buying a secondhand (or thirdhand or more) car. Carfax
> helps a lot. I reject a car with too many owners in too
> short a time, for example, of which there are many out
> there, at least on Craigs List where I am.
>
> I am seeing consistently that the little c. 1990 Civic
> hatchbacks feel somewhat too much like a death trap.


what an odd statement! they're only 27cm shorter than your 4-door
sedan, and they both have an identical wheelbase. the only reason they
could feel worse is if something is wrong.

> The DXs
> and base model hatchbacks do not have power steering,


the automatics have power steering.


> plus
> the suspension bushings generally seem worn


that may be a valid point. i forget that i replaced the bushings and
the shocks on both my current cars as soon as i got them, so they both
drive like new.


> (though I could
> fix this), so the road feel is generally lousy. Then too
> they are small and cramped.


how are they different to your sedan? and i can tell you for fact,
there is more interior room in my 89 than there in in the subsequent
generations. get a tape measure out.


> Great mileage, but I like
> feeling a little more like I am not the smallest, most
> vulnerable vehicle on the road.
>
> Only one of the circa 1990 Civics I have seen had what I
> would call very good a/c. It also had a great body and 166k
> mileage, with only two owners. I made an offer on it, but as
> JBeam observes, offering more than KBB was not quite enough,
> and it got snatched at a significantly higher price before I
> could counter. I was testing the waters. Now I am seeing
> good, newer c. 1995 Civics sell within two hours on Craigs
> List.
>
> Having driven a few 95-97 Civics now, I am leaning towards
> spending more and making this second car the one that will
> replace my 91 Civic in a few years. Meanwhile my friend will
> use the newer one for commuting in summer, then use my 91
> Civic (no a/c) the rest of the year.
>
> Like you were saying when comparing cars, the newer ones
> have a much much better feel. I am not in a rush. Which
> means I end up saving as much as a few thousand dollars.
>
>

  #20  
Old June 27th 08, 10:26 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.honda,alt.autos.honda
Dave Garrett
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Posts: 73
Default Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

In article >,
says...

> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:
>
> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for 30
> days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked, it
> revealed: (a)
> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a third;
> it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports attest to
> how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure saved me some
> trouble.


[...]

> Though oddly, on my Carfax checks, there's always an
> advertisement by dealers for a 199- Civic, complete with
> VIN. Then I call the dealer, and the car is not there. Maybe
> when a car is traded in, carfax automatically retrieves it
> and its filter puts the ad up? But in fact most of these
> cars are sold at auction?


I've found Carfax to be quite useful on several occasions in the past.
The $35 30-day membership is cheap compared to the cost of a car, and
the Carfax data isn't always 100% accurate or complete, but as long as
you recognize that, it works pretty well for a quick-and-dirty
assessment of past problems.

One of those Carfax dealer ads is how I recently acquired my '00 Civic
Si. I'd been looking for a clean, unmolested '99-'00 Si for a couple of
months with limited results - most of the ones I ran across via
Craigslist or another local forum were either ragged out from rough
treatment, had high mileage with no way to verify the service history
(or lack thereof), or had modifications I wasn't thrilled about. I'm not
entirely averse to modded cars when they're well thought out and done to
a professional standard, but those kinds of cars tend to be the
exception rather than the rule.

Anyway, I was checking the VIN on Carfax for an Si I was considering
going to check out, when an ad popped up stating something like "you
might also be interested in this vehicle" for an '00 Civic Si with only
53K miles. It was at a local dealer, so I got on the phone and called
them immediately. The salesdroid sounded confused initially when I asked
about the car, then after looking it up, hesitantly offered that they
still had the car. I went out to look at it, and it turned out that
they'd just gotten it as a trade-in a couple of days previously. It was
still in the service bay awaiting cleanup and servicing, was filthy
inside and out, and they wouldn't let me drive it until they'd checked
it out. But it appeared to be solid, no evidence of ever having been
wrecked (confirmed by Carfax, for what that's worth), and the interior
was in really good shape for an 8-year-old car. It cleaned up quite
nicely, and I wound up buying it before it ever hit the lot. The only
flaw I've been able to find is that 5th gear grinds slightly. There's a
TSB for this which recommends replacing the 5th-reverse gear cluster
(and probably the synchros), but given how much that's likely to cost,
I'll probably just live with it unless it gets worse.

Anyway, your supposition about Carfax automatically finding cars like
this is probably correct - it certainly hadn't been advertised anywhere
by the dealer, and the various salespeople I talked to were all
mystified as to how I'd found out about it. This particular dealer
claimed that their policy was to never buy cars at auction, but they
didn't say whether that policy also extended to selling cars at auction.

Dave

 




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