Trip and hmmmmm......

If you are used to driving at 80 mph or below, running autobahn speeds above
100 will make you very nervious.
It's best to start out a little below 100, say 90-95 to get used to the
speed, then increase it to what you and the car seem to like.
I used to driver the autobahn in the late seventies. We always rented
Mercedes if we had a choice. My personal car was a 76 Buick
Regal 2dht-- Red with Hurst hatches that i had brought from the states. It
was comfortable to drive for extended periods up to 100. Past that, tires
and handling became a concern. (OEM TPC spec tires) It really was a pain to
drive on the twisty back highways.

The germans always stopped and looked at the car when it was parked in large
retail store parking lots. The front bumper was massive, with shocks and a U
shaped beam that reinforced the front bumper. Plastic trim normally covered
a gap between the bumper and grille. This was removed to mount fog and
driving lights, making the size and mass of the bumper more obvious.


"Marc Gerges" > wrote in message
...
> Chris D'Agnolo > wrote:
> >>
> >> If you ever get a chance then make a road trip in Germany they have
> >> amazing free ways and on some parts there are no speed limits.
> >>
> > Don't rub it in Bruno ;-) We can afford the petrol but can't (legally)
> > drive fast, you guys can go fast but if you do, you'll go broke fast!
> >
>
> Where exactly is the point in going fast in a Miata? Mine's happiest on
> twisty country roads, doing 50 or 60 mph. Was on the german autobahn a
week
> ago and let it run a bit. Yes, it could go 110 mph and felt safe and
> stable. Fun, it was not.
>
> > Actually, with so much of the world paying a Bush's ransom for gas I
find it
> > hard to believe the manufacturers continued heavy slant toward
performance.
> > Don't get me wrong, I love performance but when even hybrids are doing 0
to
> > 60 times 7.5 seconds (maybe some even less), it seems a bit odd! I know
us
> > crazy Americans may be a bit slow coming around to the world reality but
> > isn't the rest of the world looking for serious mileage #'s. Maybe those
> > models just aren't being shipped across the sea? I'm not talking about
micro
> > cars really, more like full size cars and SUV's. The Honda Accord and
the
> > Lexus 300 SUV hybrid, both are like performance versions. Why don't they
> > make a great mileage version and a high performance version? Sorry,
> > rambling.
>
> Europe has decided some weeks ago that by 2012 new cars will have to
> emit a maximum of 130 g of CO2 per kilometer in average. That's around 5
> l/100 km petrol, a bit more for diesel (no idea on what it means in
> mpg). I am looking forward to see how that turns out. But you'll find
> that when you take an Audi A4 or similar equipped with the base Diesel
> engine, you can do that already today, and have a car perfectly capable
> of 100mph+.
>
> Obviously for every SUV sold you'll need to sell 5 Priuses to keep the
> average in check :-)
>
> cu
> .\\arc

Chuck > wrote:
> If you are used to driving at 80 mph or below, running autobahn speeds above
> 100 will make you very nervious.
> It's best to start out a little below 100, say 90-95 to get used to the
> speed, then increase it to what you and the car seem to like.

Chuck, I do not feel uncomfortable with high speed driving. I have done
around 100000 km autobahn, most of them in cars capable of 110 mph or
more. I remember a late evening trip back home from Frankfurt (around
300 km) with an average speed of 120 mph.

It's just that I think the Miata is no fun at these speeds. It is very
noisy and a bit jiggly, you can't really drop the top, and there's an
annoying absence of thrill inducing bends, corners or curves. So, what's
the point, then?

> The germans always stopped and looked at the car when it was parked in large
> retail store parking lots. The front bumper was massive, with shocks and a U
> shaped beam that reinforced the front bumper. Plastic trim normally covered
> a gap between the bumper and grille. This was removed to mount fog and
> driving lights, making the size and mass of the bumper more obvious.
>

It probably made them wonder if one culd produce an entire Volkswagen
out of the metal of your bumper :-)

cu
.\\arc

Chris D'Agnolo wrote:
>
> Don't rub it in Bruno ;-) We can afford the petrol but can't (legally)
> drive fast, you guys can go fast but if you do, you'll go broke fast!
>
It's not just the petrol if only that's here in Denmark, a small country
just north of Germany for those without a map of Europe, because cars
here are taxed rather high.

There are exceptions but most normal cars has a 180% tax put on top of
the price (with some safety features like ABS left untaxed) and after
that comes a general 25% sales tax which is on most things - oh and as a
nice touch the sales tax is also put on the 180%. As a result the
cheapest car here in Denmark is about $18.000 and a new Miata 2.0 with
full specs and the soft top is yours for around $78,300 :-)

> Crazy world eh?
>
Certainly :-)



> Actually, with so much of the world paying a Bush's ransom for gas I find it
> hard to believe the manufacturers continued heavy slant toward performance.
> Don't get me wrong, I love performance but when even hybrids are doing 0 to
> 60 times 7.5 seconds (maybe some even less), it seems a bit odd!

I think part of the reason is actually motoring journalists.

When I was a kid some 25 years ago I remember reading about cars and
anything even close to 10 seconds for 0-60 was considered fast and
anything under 16-18 seconds was the norm. And top speed wise the
situation was similar.

But if you read a motoring magazine today they'll describe anything with
less than 100+ BHP per ton as under powered and I think for many they
are like trend setting in a bad way. Motoring fun is not, just, about
power but it's like many people need to "My car is fast" and only a few
people say "My car is clever and fun".




> I know us
> crazy Americans may be a bit slow coming around to the world reality but
> isn't the rest of the world looking for serious mileage #'s.

In a way it's going backwards here in Europe. We have had small eco
friendly cars for years but mileage has not improved much over the last
twenty years. Partly because safety equipment has made cars heavier but
mainly because cars has gotten bigger and more powerfull with every
generation. It's not all bad though fx. 911's has gotten a lot better
mileage wise :-)


Maybe those
> models just aren't being shipped across the sea? I'm not talking about micro
> cars really, more like full size cars and SUV's.

I do think you see most of of the world's SUV's in the US as it is the
main market for cars like that. And as for mid size I do think a lot of
what we consider mid size is considered micro state side which is a big
shame and even our real micro cars are actually really good. In fact
many of our small cars many seem small but because of the way they are
build they are not small on the inside.

Here are a few cars I think really would be worthwhile to get in the US:

http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/1703/
http://www.topgear.com/drives/D2/D8/
http://www.topgear.com/drives/B3/AB/


The Honda Accord and the
> Lexus 300 SUV hybrid, both are like performance versions. Why don't they
> make a great mileage version and a high performance version? Sorry,
> rambling.
>
Me too :-)

Interestingly just as not many EU cars make it to the US we don't see
many US cars. Part of the reason may be because the market is different
but there are also some things which are said of US cars over here (true
or not I can't as I have limited experience with US cars - please don't
take offence).

- They are only good in straight lines.
- The suspension is to soft - like a sofa.
- The build quality is not so good.
- The interior is mostly cheap plastic.
- They are more brute force than refinement.
- They drink gas like there is no tomorrow.
- old school design

I'm sure a similar list can be made about European cars, perhaps
something like too small, to stiff, under powered, flashy interior...

Only US cars I see here in Denmark in any number is PT Cruisers, Jeep's,
Chrysler (300M, Voyager, Neon) and then a few special imports
like Hummer's, Viper's, F150's, Ford GT - the imports are all as rare as
Ferrari's if not more.

Kind regards
Bruno

"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:

>cars really, more like full size cars and SUV's. The Honda Accord and the
>Lexus 300 SUV hybrid, both are like performance versions. Why don't they
>make a great mileage version and a high performance version? Sorry,
>rambling.

As far as I understand, because the electrical engines can already put
out all that power, there is no real penalty for the performance.

I assume at the bottom it boils down to that it is a lot easier to design
an efficient general purpose motor than a heat engine.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

In article >,
Bruno > wrote:

> Part of the reason may be because the market is different
> but there are also some things which are said of US cars over here (true
> or not I can't as I have limited experience with US cars - please don't
> take offence).
>
> - They are only good in straight lines.
> - The suspension is to soft - like a sofa.
> - The build quality is not so good.
> - The interior is mostly cheap plastic.
> - They are more brute force than refinement.
> - They drink gas like there is no tomorrow.
> - old school design

The last two are not true across the board. The others are, sadly, still
generally accurate.

OTOH, European cars have earned a reputation here for being unreliable,
expensive to maintain and repair, and poor value. Even the
formerly-bulletproof Mercedes now has a poor reputation for durability.
Americans can't see the benefit of a quality interior if it spends much
of its time in the shop. They'd rather drive crude trucks that start
every time and don't leave them stranded 20 miles from the nearest town
(a situation tough to imagine in Europe).

Driving conditions determine market expectations, of course, and a lot
is explained by the differences in distances and climates. Americans
expect to be able to jump into their automotive appliances in New York
and drive to California in a couple of days with no attention to the car
but fuel. Europeans are typically awed by the unpopulated vastness of
much of North America. And many Americans think Europe is like being in
rush hour 24/7.

>
> - They are only good in straight lines.
> - The suspension is to soft - like a sofa.
> - The build quality is not so good.
> - The interior is mostly cheap plastic.
> - They are more brute force than refinement.
> - They drink gas like there is no tomorrow.
> - old school design
>
Sadly, we can't much argue with most of that. The domestic brands seem to
be blind and deaf as to what many Americans want.

Chris
99BBB

As far as I understand, because the electrical engines can already put
out all that power, there is no real penalty for the performance.

Seems an odd statement coming from a scientist of any sort. You are a
scientist or engineer or ? aren't you Leon. Sorry, I don't remember exactly.

Chris
99BBB

In article >,
"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:

> As far as I understand, because the electrical engines can already put
> out all that power, there is no real penalty for the performance.
>
> Seems an odd statement coming from a scientist of any sort.

I presume what Leon means is the electricity is "free" because it's the
product of regenerative braking, not the burning of fuel. Instead of
just making heat, braking charges the batteries. Of course, using the
electrons for whoopie launches means the gas engine will kick in sooner
when the batteries run down. TANSTAAFL.

"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:

>As far as I understand, because the electrical engines can already put
>out all that power, there is no real penalty for the performance.
>
>Seems an odd statement coming from a scientist of any sort. You are a
>scientist or engineer or ? aren't you Leon. Sorry, I don't remember exactly.

I don't see what is odd. If you don't put in an electric motor, you have
no hybrid. If you do, reasonably speaking you have a high performance
vehicle.

Leon
--
Leon van Dommelen Bess, the Miata Bozo, the Miata
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas

Chris D'Agnolo wrote:
> As far as I understand, because the electrical engines can already put
> out all that power, there is no real penalty for the performance.
>

The thing is that electric motors offer lot of torque from like zero
revolutions and they have a wide range rpm wise as well, both things
that does help with 0-60 figures. Also if we are talking a hybrid then
in has two engines both able to drive the car so if you allow for both
engines to run at once then it will offer good performance.

Kind regards
Bruno