FAILED Emissions!

I go this every two years with my 77 FI Bug.

Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!


If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?

--

--
Mel P.

77 Bug & 70 KG Cabrio


PARTS FOR SALE: http://www.geocities.com/mpernice/VWPARTS/index.htm

> Anyone know *either how I can *test Hydrocarbons at home through some
> indirect test? *The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>
> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?

What was your CO reading? How about NOX, are they testing that too?

It has been my experience that high CO is a result of carburetor/FI
malfunction(too much fuel or not enough air). High HC is usually
ignition related(timing, plugs, dwell, and so on) or indicative of a
failed catalytic converter. High NOX means your EGR is not working or
your timing is REALLY off.

Post the other numbers and maybe something will become more obvious.
300 is about what the threshhold is out here in the southwest if
memory serves me right, so I suspect you should be able to meet that
spec even if your cat was not functional.

Chris

Mel P. wrote:
> I go this every two years with my 77 FI Bug.
>
> Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
> indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>
>
> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?
>

Way back when your '77 FI Bug was new (and for many years afterward) VW
dealers had equipment to diagnose the workings of the FI system. They
would plug their equipment into the engine's electronic control unit,
commonly called the ECU or black box; a printed readout was the result.
My VW repair manual published by Bentley says "testing with other
equipment may produce inaccurate or inconclusive results and can
permanently damage the control unit."

It's not likely that any dealer still has that testing equipment which
was of Bosch or VW origin. There is always a chance that a garage
specializing in aircooled VW repair has the testing equipment or are
experienced in repairing FI problems.

You don't want to replace parts hoping that any change will improve the
HC reading. You may have just one failed part, such as an oxygen sensor,
and a mechanic experienced in FI repair should be able to find out
what's wrong. http://www.volksparts.com/o2sensors.htm

Take a look at some of these websites:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/arc...-365281--.html
http://www.lennysvw.com/OBDNTRO.htm
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&se...0a4630ce98f7da

Although the following website is California specific, there is a lot of
useful information on it particularly topics 9-15 and 21.
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Smog.html#checklist

For more help from VW owners, ask your questions on one of the Samba
forums. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/

-- Randall

Randall wrote:
> Mel P. wrote:
>> I go this every two years with my 77 FI Bug.
>>
>> Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
>> indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>>
>>
>> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?
>>
>
> Way back when your '77 FI Bug was new (and for many years afterward) VW
> dealers had equipment to diagnose the workings of the FI system. They
> would plug their equipment into the engine's electronic control unit,
> commonly called the ECU or black box; a printed readout was the result.
> My VW repair manual published by Bentley says "testing with other
> equipment may produce inaccurate or inconclusive results and can
> permanently damage the control unit."
>
> It's not likely that any dealer still has that testing equipment which
> was of Bosch or VW origin. There is always a chance that a garage
> specializing in aircooled VW repair has the testing equipment or are
> experienced in repairing FI problems.
>
> You don't want to replace parts hoping that any change will improve the
> HC reading. You may have just one failed part, such as an oxygen sensor,
> and a mechanic experienced in FI repair should be able to find out
> what's wrong. http://www.volksparts.com/o2sensors.htm
>
> Take a look at some of these websites:
> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/arc...-365281--.html
> http://www.lennysvw.com/OBDNTRO.htm
> http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&se...0a4630ce98f7da
>
>
> Although the following website is California specific, there is a lot of
> useful information on it particularly topics 9-15 and 21.
> http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Smog.html#checklist
>
> For more help from VW owners, ask your questions on one of the Samba
> forums. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/
>
> -- Randall
>


You can check the fuel mixture (CO) by measuring the output voltage of
the O2 sensor with a multimeter/voltmeter capable of displaying
millivolts. (0-1V range).
I don't know what the limits are for where you are, but for a good
running engine you would want to see the O2 voltage between 500 and 800
millivolts.

Here's a chart for voltage vs. mixture
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260323325.gif

Older cars like our VW's like to run richer than newer cars. For
emissions purposes, you probably need to lean it out from where it makes
maximum power, to where it makes minimum emissions. Then after you pass,
adjust it back


HC is unburned fuel, time for a tuneup.

So what your saying is that my EGR shouldn't be disconnected.

I had disconnected a few years ago, so it could be the culprit

--
Mel
> wrote in message
...
> Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
> indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>
> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?

What was your CO reading? How about NOX, are they testing that too?

It has been my experience that high CO is a result of carburetor/FI
malfunction(too much fuel or not enough air). High HC is usually
ignition related(timing, plugs, dwell, and so on) or indicative of a
failed catalytic converter. High NOX means your EGR is not working or
your timing is REALLY off.

Post the other numbers and maybe something will become more obvious.
300 is about what the threshhold is out here in the southwest if
memory serves me right, so I suspect you should be able to meet that
spec even if your cat was not functional.

Chris

First find a shop that has the equipment to test CO/HC/NOX.
Does your exhaust have a catalytic converter?
Does your FI system even have an Oxygen Sensor?
The dealers had a large computer to plug into the Beetles but AFAIK they
rarely used them and I don't think it was sophisticated to read CO nor HC.
I believe it was a cute idea but only told the tech general information
about charging system, ign system, battery, etc. I could be wrong though
and Speedy Jim would know more! :-(

HC should be reduced by tuning up the ignition system, keeping the ign
timing retarded, and adjusting the fuel mixture. Fuel mixture will affect
HC and if you go too lean the HC will rise.
Fuel injector spray pattern and built-up carbon deposits inside of the
engine will affect HC.
Maybe if a good fuel system cleaner is used it could clean things out.
SeaFoam or BG44 and some have tried using 100% Acetone. I can't find BG44
locally and I am afraid to use Acetone, so I sometimes use SeaFoam and will
try Lucas too since it is relatively inexpensive in a concentrated bottle.
;-)

YES post ALL of the results, both idle readings and fast speed readings. I
will assume that they are "driving" while testing?
EGR valve is usually not-functional at idle and will probably not affect HC
then!

Tune up......new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, adjust valves, change oil and air
filter, etc.
Which Spark Plugs are you using?
How strong is the ignition spark at the plugs?
What are you setting the timing at and does the advance work? Single or
Dual vacuum advance?

A little light reading....... http://www.aa1car.com/library/tr1196.htm

JMHO
--
later,
(One out of many daves)

"Jan Andersson" > wrote in message
...
> Randall wrote:
>> Mel P. wrote:
>>> I go this every two years with my 77 FI Bug.
>>>
>>> Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
>>> indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>>>
>>>
>>> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?
>>>
>>
>> Way back when your '77 FI Bug was new (and for many years afterward) VW
>> dealers had equipment to diagnose the workings of the FI system. They
>> would plug their equipment into the engine's electronic control unit,
>> commonly called the ECU or black box; a printed readout was the result.
>> My VW repair manual published by Bentley says "testing with other
>> equipment may produce inaccurate or inconclusive results and can
>> permanently damage the control unit."
>>
>> It's not likely that any dealer still has that testing equipment which
>> was of Bosch or VW origin. There is always a chance that a garage
>> specializing in aircooled VW repair has the testing equipment or are
>> experienced in repairing FI problems.
>>
>> You don't want to replace parts hoping that any change will improve the
>> HC reading. You may have just one failed part, such as an oxygen sensor,
>> and a mechanic experienced in FI repair should be able to find out what's
>> wrong. http://www.volksparts.com/o2sensors.htm
>>
>> Take a look at some of these websites:
>> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/arc...-365281--.html
>> http://www.lennysvw.com/OBDNTRO.htm
>> http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&se...0a4630ce98f7da
>> Although the following website is California specific, there is a lot of
>> useful information on it particularly topics 9-15 and 21.
>> http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Smog.html#checklist
>>
>> For more help from VW owners, ask your questions on one of the Samba
>> forums. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/
>>
>> -- Randall
>>
>
>
> You can check the fuel mixture (CO) by measuring the output voltage of the
> O2 sensor with a multimeter/voltmeter capable of displaying millivolts.
> (0-1V range).
> I don't know what the limits are for where you are, but for a good running
> engine you would want to see the O2 voltage between 500 and 800
> millivolts.
>
> Here's a chart for voltage vs. mixture
> http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1260323325.gif
>
> Older cars like our VW's like to run richer than newer cars. For emissions
> purposes, you probably need to lean it out from where it makes maximum
> power, to where it makes minimum emissions. Then after you pass, adjust it
> back
>
>
> HC is unburned fuel, time for a tuneup.

Here's the readings:

HC 1675
CO% 0.39
CO% 9.2

NOx were not measured.

RPM 1090



--
Mel
"Mel P." > wrote in message
...
>I go this every two years with my 77 FI Bug.
>
> Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
> indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>
>
> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?
>
> --
>
> --
> Mel P.
>
> 77 Bug & 70 KG Cabrio
>
>
> PARTS FOR SALE: http://www.geocities.com/mpernice/VWPARTS/index.htm
>

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:45:40 +0100, Mel P. > wrote:

> So what your saying is that my EGR shouldn't be disconnected.
>
> I had disconnected a few years ago, so it could be the culprit
>

All emission control devices must be 100% operational to limit emissions,
that is why they are there!!
EGR = Exhaust Gas Recycling.

J.


--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

The VW plug in tester really only tested basic parameters. The most
interesting one though was compression ratio. As far as I can work out it
did it by measuring the starter current ( by measuring the voltage across
the cable from batt to starter when starting) and differentiating it. As
the starter came up on the compression stroke the starter current increased
more rapidly on a high compression than a low. On my cars it gave an
indication rather than absolute figures. Everthing else was readily
checkable, even to an amateur like me. The Fuel Injection tester you could
duplicate with a good multimeter , specially if you had Elfrinks book.
John

Not sure if those are the correct readings but it the CO is actually 0.39
then it is too low and it is possibly adding to the HC. Could there be a
vacuum leak too? Check ALL vacuum hoses and the gasket on the oil cap.

What is the initial ign timing (idle) set at?
Dual or Single vacuum advance on that distributor?

"Mel P." > wrote in message
...
> Here's the readings:
>
> HC 1675
> CO% 0.39
> CO% 9.2
>
> NOx were not measured.
>
> RPM 1090
>
>
>
> --
> Mel
> "Mel P." > wrote in message
> ...
>>I go this every two years with my 77 FI Bug.
>>
>> Anyone know either how I can test Hydrocarbons at home through some
>> indirect test? The NJ limit is 300 (units?), they measured 1600!
>>
>>
>> If I change plugs, change oil, adjust timing adjust valves will I pass?
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>> Mel P.
>>
>> 77 Bug & 70 KG Cabrio
>>
>>
>> PARTS FOR SALE: http://www.geocities.com/mpernice/VWPARTS/index.htm
>>
>