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#11
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised:
> Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the > tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side > wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these "radial" body plies. http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspens...irecutaway.gif If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body plies". Is that right? https://www.treaddepot.com/assets/im...truction-1.png |
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#12
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised: > >> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper >> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the >> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those >> locations. > > I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both > in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. > > As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel > belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that > the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts. > http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg > > The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie: > http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg > > From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks: > https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg > > From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the > patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? > > That was my point. |
#13
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised: > >> I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper >> patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the >> sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those >> locations. > > I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both > in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. > You're correct, my apologies. > As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel > belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that > the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts. > http://www.tirefailures.com/images/t...ad-diagram.jpg > > The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie: > http://www.tirefailures.com/images_v...ireCutaway.jpg > > From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks: > https://www.lesschwab.com/images/bac...ire_layers.jpg > > From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the > patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? > > |
#14
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised: > >> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've >> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a >> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. >> >> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't >> be a reason it will fail. > > Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. > How close can you get to the edge, and, why. > Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and because service shops will not or just to save a few buck. Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires. > I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. > I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. > > Is that correct? > > BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug? > http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg > > I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy): > http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg > > And a bigger patch which was flatter: > http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg > > Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush? > http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg > > It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this: > http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg > > Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush: > http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg > A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is important to ensure that proper prep is performed. In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, a patch/plug is better. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007 if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. |
#15
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie > wrote:
>On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: >> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? >> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg >> >> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched >> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. >> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg >> >> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the >> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close >> to the sidewall. >> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg >> >> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. >> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? >> Is it that the patch will flex too much? >> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? >> > >Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've >patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a >few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. > >If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't >be a reason it will fail. An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle. |
#16
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank <"frank > wrote:
>On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote: >> On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: >>> How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall? >>> http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg >>> >>> Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I >>> patched >>> these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around. >>> http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg >>> >>> For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the >>> question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close >>> to the sidewall. >>> http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg >>> >>> I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall. >>> Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? >>> Is it that the patch will flex too much? >>> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? >>> >> >> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've >> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a >> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. >> >> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't >> be a reason it will fail. > >Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the >tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side >wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause problems with tread squirm and tire integrety. |
#17
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie > wrote:
>On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote: >> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised: >> >>> Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've >>> patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a >>> few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. >>> >>> If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't >>> be a reason it will fail. >> >> Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. >> How close can you get to the edge, and, why. >> > >Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to >left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a >repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. >My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires >in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and >because service shops will not or just to save a few buck. > >Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they >differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive >brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls >than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, >low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over >higher sidewall tires. > > >> I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. >> I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. > >Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread >portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere >along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge" on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt area. A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go - even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished. >> snipped >In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need >to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. >There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, >a patch/plug is better. According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. I'll plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as soon as possible. >http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id= 8800005007 >if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside >out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out >from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. >http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/imag...5727864-24.jpg >You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some >straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the >area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush >with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. > |
#18
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to thesidewall?
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#20
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How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
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