How good IS BMW's 6 cylinder engine?

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:49:41 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" >
wrote:

>In article >,
> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>> The fluid and filter in the auto box MUST be changed every 30-40K --
>> regardless of what BMW or the dealer says -- if you want to get more
>> than 125K miles out of it.
>
>Have you got any proof of this? Plenty say engine oil *must* be changed at
>3000 miles. But they're wrong too.
>
>Oils can be analysed for their condition. You'd need to do several
>transmissions at 40k miles and find evidence of that ATF deteriorating to
>be certain it needs changing. Otherwise stick to the maker's
>recommendation of about 80,000. The ATF specified is expensive.

As you say Dave and to add to my view - 30K can be a year of driving for some
folk and if this is a MUST I don't see or hear of many replacement auto boxes
being fitted under warranty by BMW dealers between 30K and the 100K warranty
period over 3 years.

Change engine oil @ first 500 miles and then every 3000 was 1960 stuff then came
the 5000 mile service interval from Ford of Briton on the old V6 Zodiac and the
1600 Cortina. Now it appears that the idiot light is back for all and dictates
are a thing of the past like oil pressure gauges, volt meters, ammeters etc. How
long before the speedo and rev counter go in their present format and we have to
rely on sat-nav reading for speed and distance and both being relayed back to
base so the Police can summons us without giving us the legal warning.

Ho Hmm! Where's me bike?
--

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen

Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 14:18:29 +0100, wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:49:41 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" >
>wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>>> The fluid and filter in the auto box MUST be changed every 30-40K --
>>> regardless of what BMW or the dealer says -- if you want to get more
>>> than 125K miles out of it.
>>
>>Have you got any proof of this? Plenty say engine oil *must* be changed at
>>3000 miles. But they're wrong too.
>>
>>Oils can be analysed for their condition. You'd need to do several
>>transmissions at 40k miles and find evidence of that ATF deteriorating to
>>be certain it needs changing. Otherwise stick to the maker's
>>recommendation of about 80,000. The ATF specified is expensive.
>
>As you say Dave and to add to my view - 30K can be a year of driving for some
>folk and if this is a MUST I don't see or hear of many replacement auto boxes
>being fitted under warranty by BMW dealers between 30K and the 100K warranty
>period over 3 years.
>
>Change engine oil @ first 500 miles and then every 3000 was 1960 stuff then came
>the 5000 mile service interval from

>Ford of Briton

Ford of Britain

> on the old V6 Zodiac and the
>1600 Cortina. Now it appears that the idiot light is back for all and dictates
>are a thing of the past like oil pressure gauges, volt meters, ammeters etc. How
>long before the speedo and rev counter go in their present format and we have to
>rely on sat-nav reading for speed and distance and both being relayed back to
>base so the Police can summons us without giving us the legal warning.
>
>Ho Hmm! Where's me bike?
--

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen

Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:49:41 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
> >
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>>> The fluid and filter in the auto box MUST be changed every 30-40K --
>>> regardless of what BMW or the dealer says -- if you want to get more
>>> than 125K miles out of it.
>>
>>Have you got any proof of this? Plenty say engine oil *must* be changed at
>>3000 miles. But they're wrong too.
>>
>>Oils can be analysed for their condition. You'd need to do several
>>transmissions at 40k miles and find evidence of that ATF deteriorating to
>>be certain it needs changing. Otherwise stick to the maker's
>>recommendation of about 80,000. The ATF specified is expensive.
>
> As you say Dave and to add to my view - 30K can be a year of driving for
> some
> folk and if this is a MUST I don't see or hear of many replacement auto
> boxes
> being fitted under warranty by BMW dealers between 30K and the 100K
> warranty
> period over 3 years.
>
I think what is confusing is that the OLD BMW service routine called for
changing auto tranny fluids every 30K miles. So if your car is from the 90s
or earlier, that is probably a good routine. However, for newer BMWs, I
believe the recommendation is every 80K or 100K. The difference is the type
of fluid used. The older BMW fluid used standard fluids like Dexron II or
III. The newer stuff is synthetic and designed to last longer. In a way,
its similar to engine oil. Older cars ran on dino oil and recommended
changing intervals ranged from 3K to 5K miles. In contrast, newer BMWs use
synthetic and recommended intervals is from 7K to 15K.

Manual tranny fluids can still be changed every 30K miles with a good
synthetic. Its easy, so why not?

If you can, it is still recommended to change differential fluid every 30K.
Us a good synthetic from Redline or RP, but its my understanding that some
of the newer BMWs don't have a drain plug in the differential. Still, there
are ways of suctioning out the old fluid.

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 08:34:24 -0700, "bfd" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:49:41 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>>>> The fluid and filter in the auto box MUST be changed every 30-40K --
>>>> regardless of what BMW or the dealer says -- if you want to get more
>>>> than 125K miles out of it.
>>>
>>>Have you got any proof of this? Plenty say engine oil *must* be changed at
>>>3000 miles. But they're wrong too.
>>>
>>>Oils can be analysed for their condition. You'd need to do several
>>>transmissions at 40k miles and find evidence of that ATF deteriorating to
>>>be certain it needs changing. Otherwise stick to the maker's
>>>recommendation of about 80,000. The ATF specified is expensive.
>>
>> As you say Dave and to add to my view - 30K can be a year of driving for
>> some
>> folk and if this is a MUST I don't see or hear of many replacement auto
>> boxes
>> being fitted under warranty by BMW dealers between 30K and the 100K
>> warranty
>> period over 3 years.
>>
>I think what is confusing is that the OLD BMW service routine called for
>changing auto tranny fluids every 30K miles. So if your car is from the 90s
>or earlier, that is probably a good routine. However, for newer BMWs, I
>believe the recommendation is every 80K or 100K. The difference is the type
>of fluid used. The older BMW fluid used standard fluids like Dexron II or
>III. The newer stuff is synthetic and designed to last longer. In a way,
>its similar to engine oil. Older cars ran on dino oil and recommended
>changing intervals ranged from 3K to 5K miles. In contrast, newer BMWs use
>synthetic and recommended intervals is from 7K to 15K.
>
>Manual tranny fluids can still be changed every 30K miles with a good
>synthetic. Its easy, so why not?
>
>If you can, it is still recommended to change differential fluid every 30K.
>Us a good synthetic from Redline or RP, but its my understanding that some
>of the newer BMWs don't have a drain plug in the differential. Still, there
>are ways of suctioning out the old fluid.

But unfortunately not all the **** however, the old trick of sticking a big
magnet to the inside of the sump pan on the tranny or even drilling and tapping
the diff for a drain plug if one is that paranoid will work.
>
>
--

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen

Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:49:41 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" >
>>Have you got any proof of this? Plenty say engine oil *must* be changed at
>>3000 miles. But they're wrong too.
>>
>>Oils can be analysed for their condition. You'd need to do several
>>transmissions at 40k miles and find evidence of that ATF deteriorating to
>>be certain it needs changing. Otherwise stick to the maker's
>>recommendation of about 80,000. The ATF specified is expensive.

It was not my intent to start up an ATF debate. That's been done to
hell and back here and in other online forums. However, I'll respond and
clarify my comments.

I'll agree that a more realistic engine oil change interval is 5000-7500
miles. But while an oil analysis will reveal some anti-wear additive
(molybdenum, typically) remaining at 15K miles, oil that age has long ago
lost its ability to hold contaminants in suspension. When the oil can't
hold any more dirt, it winds up deposited elsewhere in the form of sludge.
An engine can tolerate a huge amount of sludge, but a transmission cannot,
so suggesting a filter and fluid change at 30K mile intervals is quite
reasonable.

As for the cost of the fluid, the earlier non-steptronic GM trannys (a la
E36) use standard DIII fluid and you can source that for $2/q at Walmart.
The oil for the ZF transmission is another matter, however. It can be
sourced directly from BMW at $20/l, or from VW at $11/l, or from select
aftermarket vendors that explicitly specify compatibility with the spec
for around $8/q. It's not that bad if you know where to look.

> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 14:18:29 +0100, hsg wrote:
> As you say Dave and to add to my view - 30K can be a year of driving for some
> folk and if this is a MUST I don't see or hear of many replacement auto boxes
> being fitted under warranty by BMW dealers between 30K and the 100K warranty
> period over 3 years.

Yes, but a significant number of these boxes are being replaced between 100
and 125K due to a lack of maintenance before 100K. And that's because
everyone listens to the BMW money-making-machine and changes the oil too
late in the wear cycle if they change it at all. The result of a change
that late in the game is usually more harm than good because the
detergents in the new oil free those deposits and clog the valve body or
just interfere with proper meshing of the clutch plates.

So I'll clarify my statement. If the OP intends to keep the car long term
(> 4 years or 60K miles) AND he wants to prolong the life of
the transmission through regular preventative maintenance, he MUST conduct
the first service at 30-40K miles and conduct additional service at 40K
mile intervals thereafter. If you start maintaining the transmission at
80K or 100K miles as BMW recommends, you've already lost the battle.

For further reading:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=166135
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=175161
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=438667
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=498651
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=430969

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

In article >,
Doug Vetter > wrote:
> I'll agree that a more realistic engine oil change interval is 5000-7500
> miles. But while an oil analysis will reveal some anti-wear additive
> (molybdenum, typically) remaining at 15K miles, oil that age has long
> ago lost its ability to hold contaminants in suspension. When the oil
> can't hold any more dirt, it winds up deposited elsewhere in the form of
> sludge. An engine can tolerate a huge amount of sludge, but a
> transmission cannot, so suggesting a filter and fluid change at 30K mile
> intervals is quite reasonable.

Sludge comes from the byproducts of combustion which get into the oil via
the crankcase. This is why good crankcase ventilation is important - if
the breathers get blocked you'll soon get sludge forming.

If there's combustion going on inside your transmission a fluid change
won't help. ;-)

--
*If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:01:41 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> Sludge comes from the byproducts of combustion which get into the oil via
> the crankcase. This is why good crankcase ventilation is important - if
> the breathers get blocked you'll soon get sludge forming.
>
> If there's combustion going on inside your transmission a fluid change
> won't help. ;-)

Ah, sludge. It's one of those "technical terms", which refers to any
generic dark colored "gook" (how's that for defining one technical term
with another) that forms as a result of either combustion byproducts or
wear of frictional materials in a closed system.

Rest assured, transmissions (particularly those with a zillion clutch
packs like the ZF steptronics) have a problem with sludge or gook forming
in them over time if you don't change the oil often enough.

Love to continue the debate, but Entourage is coming on HBO soon and I
have to prepare the onion dip. :-)

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

In article >,
Doug Vetter > wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:01:41 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > Sludge comes from the byproducts of combustion which get into the oil
> > via the crankcase. This is why good crankcase ventilation is important
> > - if the breathers get blocked you'll soon get sludge forming.
> >
> > If there's combustion going on inside your transmission a fluid change
> > won't help. ;-)

> Ah, sludge. It's one of those "technical terms", which refers to any
> generic dark colored "gook" (how's that for defining one technical term
> with another) that forms as a result of either combustion byproducts or
> wear of frictional materials in a closed system.

> Rest assured, transmissions (particularly those with a zillion clutch
> packs like the ZF steptronics) have a problem with sludge or gook
> forming in them over time if you don't change the oil often enough.

In my experience of fixing many autos 'sludge' only happens after the
transmission has started to fail. If the amount of debris caused by normal
wear was a problem they'd fit a proper filter rather than just the gauze
one to protect the pump from foreign objects. I recently stripped a
transmission where a gear train failure had occurred and the fluid was not
showing any signs of friction material contamination despite being due for
a change. If on draining down the fluid looks contaminated the
transmission is not long for this world. Of course I'm not saying that
fluid doesn't need changing due to other factors - it will deteriorate in
other ways. But changing *long life* fluid at 'normal' intervals simply
wastes money and serves no purpose.

--
*Caution: I drive like you do.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

THREE-speed. How outmoded is that?

More to the point, how inefficient at high speeds is that?

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"R. Mark Clayton" > wrote in message
...
[...
but for normal
> driving a BW or GM 3 speed box would make a reasonable choice of gear
> automatically for journeyies lasting hundreds of miles.
[...]

In article >,
Dori A Schmetterling > wrote:
> THREE-speed. How outmoded is that?

> More to the point, how inefficient at high speeds is that?

I reckon many base their dislike of autos on memories of a three (or even
two) speed one that spent most of its time churning the torque convertor.
Modern multi speed ones are a totally different device. Indeed my first 5
speed ZF auto on an E34 was actually more economical at cruise than the
manual due to the TC lock and higher gearing.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.