Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

jim beam wrote:
>
> Nate Nagel wrote:
but the reality is, on a properly maintained system,
> this is a zero issue.


I thought he was talking about properly maintaining the cooling fans. Some
people drive cars that have more than a 1000 hours on them.

-jim



>and it's only vaguely useful on improperly
> maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually
> too late.
>
> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
> competent standards of maintenance. if those standards are not kept,
> and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is
> perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to
> its fate.


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jim beam wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>
>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> Steve > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people
>>>>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong
>>>>>>> presumption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are
>>>>>> enthusiasts that understand how things work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And they are not the audience the carmakers want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their
>>>> vehicles to their friends, neighbors and family members.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the
>>> vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales
>>> endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is
>>> great! homer simpson builds the canyonero!
>>
>>
>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in
>> warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's
>> a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is
>> partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of
>> "stop leak" products.
>>
>> You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>
>> nate
>>
>
> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the
> working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve
> if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more
> serious problems". but the reality is, on a properly maintained system,
> this is a zero issue. and it's only vaguely useful on improperly
> maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually
> too late.

But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are
maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running, and
generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or driving
it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to buy a
used car from one of these people?

> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
> competent standards of maintenance.

Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.

> if those standards are not kept,
> and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is
> perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to
> its fate.

Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars, when
buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after a
couple years and price them accordingly.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article > ,
> jim beam > wrote:
>
>
>>>Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in
>>>warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a
>>>failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is
>>>partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of
>>>"stop leak" products.
>>>
>>>You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>>
>>>nate
>>>
>>
>>how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the
>>working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve
>>if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more
>>serious problems".
>
>
> That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't
> understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.

I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've
added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach,
a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat
extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.)

Personally I consider at least a water temp. gauge and oil pressure
gauge a must; oil temp., trans temp (if automatic) tach and vacuum are
nice options.

The oil pressure gauge has given me great piece of mind with the Ford,
as it consistently makes a noise that sounds precisely like worn rod
bearings. However, the oil pressure is rock solid stable, even when
lugging the engine (and that happens a lot, being the 4.9 I-6) therefore
I can only assume that it is either piston slap, an exhaust leak, or
something equally benign. You simply can't get that kind of
confirmation/denial of a theory as to "what's wrong" from an idiot
light. A gauge is a hell of a lot cheaper than an exploratory teardown
(which would probably turn into a rebuild, "while you're in there.")

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> Steve > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people
>>>>>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a
>>>>>>>> strong presumption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are
>>>>>>> enthusiasts that understand how things work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they are not the audience the carmakers want.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their
>>>>> vehicles to their friends, neighbors and family members.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the
>>>> vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales
>>>> endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is
>>>> great! homer simpson builds the canyonero!
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in
>>> warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that
>>> there's a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling
>>> system is partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic
>>> application of "stop leak" products.
>>>
>>> You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>
>> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the
>> working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust
>> valve if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of
>> "predicting more serious problems". but the reality is, on a properly
>> maintained system, this is a zero issue. and it's only vaguely useful
>> on improperly maintained ones - just like you describe - because by
>> then, it's usually too late.
>
> But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are
> maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running, and
> generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or driving
> it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to buy a
> used car from one of these people?

er, if you think detroit has an interest in /any/ of their vehicles
running beyond that time, you're too innocent for this game.


>
>> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
>> competent standards of maintenance.
>
> Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.

see above.


>
>> if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly, then
>> i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle
>> [and its instrumentation] to its fate.
>
> Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars, when
> buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after a
> couple years and price them accordingly.

says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it?
did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that? did you
check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade? how worn
were the main bearings? what does an oil leak mean?

bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go on
is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as much
in the dark as the next guy. the only factors on which you can really
rely are mileage [if genuine], documented history [if genuine] and
physical appearance. and even then, that's b.s. my crx has peeling
paint and primer on one door. it looks real ghetto. but the motor
purrs like a kitten and it goes like a freakin' rocket [thanks to a zc
cam]. but you'd never know a damned thing from looking at it, or even
from opening the hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything.

jim beam wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>> Steve > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that
>>>>>>>>> people know how the machinery works in the first place. That's
>>>>>>>>> a strong presumption.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are
>>>>>>>> enthusiasts that understand how things work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And they are not the audience the carmakers want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their
>>>>>> vehicles to their friends, neighbors and family members.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the
>>>>> vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales
>>>>> endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is
>>>>> great! homer simpson builds the canyonero!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight
>>>> in warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that
>>>> there's a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling
>>>> system is partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic
>>>> application of "stop leak" products.
>>>>
>>>> You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>>>
>>>> nate
>>>>
>>>
>>> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure
>>> the working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust
>>> valve if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of
>>> "predicting more serious problems". but the reality is, on a
>>> properly maintained system, this is a zero issue. and it's only
>>> vaguely useful on improperly maintained ones - just like you describe
>>> - because by then, it's usually too late.
>>
>>
>> But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are
>> maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running,
>> and generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or
>> driving it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to
>> buy a used car from one of these people?
>
>
> er, if you think detroit has an interest in /any/ of their vehicles
> running beyond that time, you're too innocent for this game.
>
>
>>
>>> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
>>> competent standards of maintenance.
>>
>>
>> Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.
>
>
> see above.

So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent
products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for
several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years
all of my primary cars have been German (save for one Dodge Dart.) When
I find that design philosophy has swung back to treating a new vehicle
purchase as the investment that something that expensive ought to be, I
might consider a) buying an actual new car and b) buying an American or
Japanese car. Until that time, they will get none of my money.

>
>>
>>> if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly,
>>> then i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the
>>> vehicle [and its instrumentation] to its fate.
>>
>>
>> Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars, when
>> buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after
>> a couple years and price them accordingly.
>
>
> says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it?

One owner, all paperwork.

> did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that?

I looked.

> did you
> check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade?

no, as it'd never been changed.

> how worn
> were the main bearings?

I couldn't tell, because it had the factory "idiot gauge" in the dash
when I test drove it.

> what does an oil leak mean?
>
> bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go on
> is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as much
> in the dark as the next guy.

But if I have gauges, I'm much less in the dark. And if the truck had
had gauges I would have been less likely to negotiate downward as hard.

> the only factors on which you can really
> rely are mileage [if genuine], documented history [if genuine] and
> physical appearance. and even then, that's b.s. my crx has peeling
> paint and primer on one door. it looks real ghetto. but the motor
> purrs like a kitten and it goes like a freakin' rocket [thanks to a zc
> cam]. but you'd never know a damned thing from looking at it, or even
> from opening the hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything.

Good for you. You realize that if you went to sell it, it'd be
completely worthless. (I'm not saying that it really *is,* but neither
can you say with certainty that it *isn't* and that at hot idle the oil
pressure is 0.1 PSI above the threshold that triggers the idiot light.)
Even you don't know the actual condition of some of the mechanical
stuff without gauges.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>>> Steve > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that
>>>>>>>>>> people know how the machinery works in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>> That's a strong presumption.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are
>>>>>>>>> enthusiasts that understand how things work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And they are not the audience the carmakers want.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their
>>>>>>> vehicles to their friends, neighbors and family members.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the
>>>>>> vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales
>>>>>> endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is
>>>>>> great! homer simpson builds the canyonero!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight
>>>>> in warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that
>>>>> there's a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling
>>>>> system is partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic
>>>>> application of "stop leak" products.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.
>>>>>
>>>>> nate
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure
>>>> the working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each
>>>> exhaust valve if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of
>>>> "predicting more serious problems". but the reality is, on a
>>>> properly maintained system, this is a zero issue. and it's only
>>>> vaguely useful on improperly maintained ones - just like you
>>>> describe - because by then, it's usually too late.
>>>
>>>
>>> But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are
>>> maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running,
>>> and generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or
>>> driving it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want
>>> to buy a used car from one of these people?
>>
>>
>> er, if you think detroit has an interest in /any/ of their vehicles
>> running beyond that time, you're too innocent for this game.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
>>>> competent standards of maintenance.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.
>>
>>
>> see above.
>
> So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent
> products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for
> several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years
> all of my primary cars have been German (save for one Dodge Dart.) When
> I find that design philosophy has swung back to treating a new vehicle
> purchase as the investment that something that expensive ought to be, I
> might consider a) buying an actual new car and b) buying an American or
> Japanese car. Until that time, they will get none of my money.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly,
>>>> then i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the
>>>> vehicle [and its instrumentation] to its fate.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars,
>>> when buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable
>>> after a couple years and price them accordingly.
>>
>>
>> says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it?
>
> One owner, all paperwork.
>
>> did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that?
>
> I looked.

you drained it and used an endoscope??? i don't believe you.



>
>> did you check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade?
>
> no, as it'd never been changed.
>
>> how worn were the main bearings?
>
> I couldn't tell, because it had the factory "idiot gauge" in the dash
> when I test drove it.

dude, unless they're worn out and oil pressure drops too low, you still
have no idea. and if just one is worn, you definitely won't know unless
it's making noise. especially not if it's spun and the oil way is
blocking what would otherwise be excessive leakage. [you'll find out 50
miles down the road though!]


>
>> what does an oil leak mean?
>>
>> bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go
>> on is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as
>> much in the dark as the next guy.
>
> But if I have gauges, I'm much less in the dark. And if the truck had
> had gauges I would have been less likely to negotiate downward as hard.

you could have a flight deck like a 747. but unless you're testing a
prototype, there's no point as it will operate within spec for the life
of the vehicle.


>
>> the only factors on which you can really rely are mileage [if
>> genuine], documented history [if genuine] and physical appearance.
>> and even then, that's b.s. my crx has peeling paint and primer on one
>> door. it looks real ghetto. but the motor purrs like a kitten and it
>> goes like a freakin' rocket [thanks to a zc cam]. but you'd never
>> know a damned thing from looking at it, or even from opening the
>> hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything.
>
> Good for you. You realize that if you went to sell it, it'd be
> completely worthless.

that's precisely my point!!! you can't really tell with /anything/ you
buy unless you have an extremely good working experience of stripped and
failed motors so you can see telltales. can you tell what's acceptable
wear on a cam just by looking at it? what signs flag problems for you?



> (I'm not saying that it really *is,* but neither
> can you say with certainty that it *isn't* and that at hot idle the oil
> pressure is 0.1 PSI above the threshold that triggers the idiot light.)
> Even you don't know the actual condition of some of the mechanical
> stuff without gauges.

that's my point! i don't /need/ to know if it's working within spec and
i know it's been well maintained. if you don't know history and you
don't know mileage, i defy you to have the slightest clue about
condition unless you know /exactly/ what you're looking for. even
mileage isn't worth that much - 300k miles well maintained can easily be
better than 75k of neglect.

In article >,
Nate Nagel > wrote:

> >>> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
> >>> competent standards of maintenance.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.
> >
> >
> > see above.
>
> So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent
> products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for
> several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years
> all of my primary cars have been German

<snort> You think GERMAN cars are built with any sense of decently
logical engineering, with the intention of lasting several decades???

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)

And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
ride...

.....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.

At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point:
continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
for you to get over the midlife crisis.

Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.

Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
car mistress to be in the mood to play.

Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight
problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and
BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars
are.

The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics
look reliable.

Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You
want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're
throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as
reliable a car.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>
>>>it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
>>>competent standards of maintenance.
>>
>>Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.
>
>
> And yet, you want those same car owners who DON'T do halfway competent
> maintenance to have twizzler and fidget gauges all over the dashboard,
> and you state for the record that of COURSE they'll know what those
> gauges do and mean and will pay attention to them??

As I said in my other post, sometimes those gauges are what alerts you
to the fact that maintenance or repair is needed.

Maybe those people won't know what the gauges mean, but if I get that
vibe from them, and the car doesn't have gauges, I won't buy their used
car. As I said, this depresses resale values, which exactly the people
we're talking about consider important when purchasing a new vehicle.

> Face it: you are pwned.

How so? I'm merely presenting my perspective. Auto mfgrs. are free to
pay attention to it or ignore it at their whim, makes no difference to
me. I'll just wait until the 944 is well and truly plumb wore out and
hopefully by then used Boxster S or Cayman prices will be within my
budget. (or VW will make another small sporty car like the original GTI
or Scirocco.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>
>>>That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't
>>>understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.
>>
>>I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've
>>added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach,
>>a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat
>>extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.)
>
>
> You "guess" you're not typical?
>
> Have you ever spent ANY time in a car dealership, even just watching
> what goes on?
>

Not counting the brief period of time that I actually owned a new car
('02 GTI) the last time I was in a car dealership was at Livonia VW in
Michigan, when my old GTI stopped running a couple blocks away. It did
not end well; read about it he

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...a39ad8e03c2a32

So no, I don't patronize car dealerships that often.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>
>>>>>it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way
>>>>>competent standards of maintenance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.
>>>
>>>
>>>see above.
>>
>>So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent
>>products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for
>>several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years
>>all of my primary cars have been German
>
>
> <snort> You think GERMAN cars are built with any sense of decently
> logical engineering, with the intention of lasting several decades???
>
> I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)
>
> And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and
> high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine
> ride...
>
> ....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.
>
> At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point:
> continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and
> enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting
> for you to get over the midlife crisis.
>
> Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at
> the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high
> maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time.
> She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's
> more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty,
> high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights
> out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of
> you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing
> there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.
>
> Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.
>
> And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for
> it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German
> car mistress to be in the mood to play.
>
> Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight
> problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and
> BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars
> are.
>
> The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics
> look reliable.
>
> Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no
> matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.
>
> It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You
> want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're
> throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as
> reliable a car.
>

The 20-year-old Porsche in my driveway disagrees with you. It's
eminently reliable and while the maintenance costs are high that's just
the price of admission. Which is still, when you include purchase price
into the equation, less than the cost of buying ANY new car save for
maybe an el strippo Hyundai or Aveo. Most fun you can have on 4 wheels
for under $4K.

Your characterization might be better applied to Italian or British
cars, and no, I wouldn't kick a Fiat Spyder or Triumph TR-6 out of my
driveway for leaking oil. Probably wouldn't want to rely on it to get
me to work every day, though, at least not without a backup vehicle.

nate

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