And now the Bull starts

jim beam wrote:

> On 02/27/2010 08:05 AM, jim wrote:
> >
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> so read the freakin' owners manual!
> >
> > How is that going to help someone with an out of control vehicle?
>
> so, when you're cleaning your guns on the kitchen table, and your kid
> comes in and wants to play with them, do you just hand them and the
> ammunition over and let them emulate what they see on tv? or do you
> take a moment to point out the differences between the safe end and the
> dangerous end, and keep the ammo locked away?
>
> same with getting behind the wheel of a car dude - you are responsible
> for familiarizing yourself with the controls before pressing the "start"
> button.

Did i say the driver is not responsible? Or are you having a hallucination?


>
>
> >
> >>
> >> besides, unless this is absolutely the first time this person has ever
> >> sat behind the wheel of this vehicle, and hasn't yet turned it off, they
> >> will have LEARNED that the button needs to be pressed for THREE SECONDS
> >> to switch off the vehicle. duh.
> >
> > that may well be easy to do when you are stopped in your driveway, but
> > if you are careening down the highway at an unreasonably fast speed your
> > perception of how long 3 seconds is may be a tad altered.
>
> what is "altered" about pressing the freakin' button until it works?
> you keep pressing the brake pedal until you can tell it's working don't you?

Nope. That isn't what many people do. If the brakes don't work they may pump
them. They may repeatedly press a button also if they don't get the response
they are expecting. The fact that she failed to hold the button for 3 seconds
in a crisis is completely believable.


The point is it is not unbelievable that a driver couldn't get her vehicle
under control. A lot of horror movies are built around the premise that when
faced with a frightening situation the obvious simple way out of the crisis is
often overlooked. Incompetence does exist. I don't think she is lying. I do
think she is incompetent.

The point is that if toyota was taking money from fools without a care or
thought given to making that transaction foolproof - well **** happens. It is
not as if there isn't a long history of other manufacturers getting burned in
exactly the same way. that they could have referred to.



>
>
> >
> > you are obviously a loon if you are trying to defend this as good
> > design.
>
> no dude, i'm pointing out the facts:

No you're ignoring the facts and revising what happened to fit your fantasy.
This appears to be all you are capable of....



>
>
> 1. a driver is responsible for familiarizing themselves with the
> operation of the vehicle.

So?

>
>
> 2. a driver that already knows the vehicle takes three seconds to
> shutdown from their experience on the driveway but "forgets" it on the
> road is going to be subject to "natural selection".

OK and a car maker that is responsible for offing fools is going to get a
reputation for that. So its all as it should be. No?
Except there are other people who never bought a Toyoat getting hurt, which
is why the govt. is stepping in.



>
>
> just like firearms, chainsaws, high buildings with open balconies, there
> has to be a basic level of competence for which a manufacturer cannot be
> held responsible.

No but if Toyota had any foresight they might have realized they could get their
image damaged. If we look at the history of unintended acceleration complaints,
in the end NHTSA as always will probably find that Toyota did nothing wrong.

In article > ,
jim beam > wrote:

> same with getting behind the wheel of a car dude - you are responsible
> for familiarizing yourself with the controls before pressing the "start"
> button.

day 1, to self: "I don't need an owner's manual, I know how to drive."

day 3, to Usenet: "Does anyone know how to set the radio station
presets on my shiny new 2010 model $25,000 toy?"

day 20, to Usenet: "The guy at the gas station told me I don't need 93
octane fuel, that I'm wasting my money! But I heard from a friend of
the guy who works at the Taco Bell near me that 93 octane will give my
Civic more power. Clearly, he's correct; I know it, I can feel it when
I drive. One time my wife put 87 in by mistake, and this baby was
hugely sluggish all around town until I drove around the outerbelt four
times to get rid of it so I could put Kwiki-Mart 93 back in."

day 45, to Usenet: "I took the car in for some warranty work, and Honda
said it needs its 3000 mile service; is $450 too much?"

day 93, to Usenet: "After Jiffy-Lube put engine oil into my auto trans
and then overfilled my crankcase by a quart and a half, those *******s
didn't reset my check engine light! Does anyone know how to reset that?
And can anyone confirm that my system takes 10W40 oil? 'Cuz that's what
they say they used."



(yes, I know I used "check engine light" and "Honda said"; that was
intentional...)

On 02/27/2010 10:31 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<9s2dnVsW_tGz1BTWnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@speakeasy .net>,
> jim > wrote:
>
>> same with getting behind the wheel of a car dude - you are responsible
>> for familiarizing yourself with the controls before pressing the "start"
>> button.
>
> day 1, to self: "I don't need an owner's manual, I know how to drive."
>
> day 3, to Usenet: "Does anyone know how to set the radio station
> presets on my shiny new 2010 model $25,000 toy?"
>
> day 20, to Usenet: "The guy at the gas station told me I don't need 93
> octane fuel, that I'm wasting my money! But I heard from a friend of
> the guy who works at the Taco Bell near me that 93 octane will give my
> Civic more power. Clearly, he's correct; I know it, I can feel it when
> I drive. One time my wife put 87 in by mistake, and this baby was
> hugely sluggish all around town until I drove around the outerbelt four
> times to get rid of it so I could put Kwiki-Mart 93 back in."
>
> day 45, to Usenet: "I took the car in for some warranty work, and Honda
> said it needs its 3000 mile service; is $450 too much?"
>
> day 93, to Usenet: "After Jiffy-Lube put engine oil into my auto trans
> and then overfilled my crankcase by a quart and a half, those *******s
> didn't reset my check engine light! Does anyone know how to reset that?
> And can anyone confirm that my system takes 10W40 oil? 'Cuz that's what
> they say they used."
>
>
>
> (yes, I know I used "check engine light" and "Honda said"; that was
> intentional...)

right on.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:15:21 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:40:22 +0000 (UTC), Hachiroku >
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:01:03 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:35:58 -0500, Hachiroku > wrote:
>>>
>>>>A woman testified before Congress that when her Toyota began
>>>>accelerating uncontrollably she "put the car in neutral and it had no
>>>>effect, I stepped on the brakes and it had no effect, I applied the
>>>>emergency brake and it had no effect, I even tried to put the car into
>>>>reverse and I couldn't."
>>>>
>>>>Huh? Putting the car in neutral had no effect? Someone provide with
>>>>with a clue on this one.
>>>>
>>>>BTW< the car was a Lexus.
>>>
>>>
>>> And do you know for a fact that the transmission is mechanically
>>> shifted or if it's all electronically controlled? If it is
>>> electronically controlled, do you KNOW that when that model Toyota is
>>> being driven that it can be shifted into neutral?
>>
>>Nope. I don't.
>
>
> And yet you attack the woman who made the statement. Tells plenty about
> you.

"God shut the car off" tells me all I need to know to determine she needs
to ride the bus.

>
>
>
>
>>What about the OFF button?
>
> What about it? As many have already said, it seems that you have to hold
> it for 3 seconds. She probably didn't hold it that long. Most likely
> it's the ONLY on/off button on anything she owns that has to be held for 3
> seconds to turn off.

So, how has she been shutting the car off since she bought it?
Buses aren't very expensive to ride.

>
>
>>So, do YOU know if it can or can't? Add something instead of blather for
>>once. You seems to be adept at ruining transmissions.
>>
>>
> Really? Shows your reading comprehension problem. The ONLY transmission
> that has not been up to the task of MY *normal* driving is the junk in the
> Toyota Tercel. Whereas my domestics last forever it seems, the Toyota
> only lasted a month. Since they work so well for you I'll assume you
> drive like you write, sloppily, slow, and all over the place, whereas I'm
> tight, fast, and on the mark.

A MONTH!!! Holy Crap! Mine have gone YEARS, but then, I don't expect an
Econobox to have Porsche performance.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:05:37 -0600, jim wrote:

>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>> so read the freakin' owners manual!
>
> How is that going to help someone with an out of control vehicle?

We're kind of assuming you familiarize yourself with a vehicle loaded with
technology that may be unfamiliar BEFORE you find yourself hurtling
through space at 125 MPH. How had she been turning the car off before that?

>
>
>> besides, unless this is absolutely the first time this person has ever
>> sat behind the wheel of this vehicle, and hasn't yet turned it off, they
>> will have LEARNED that the button needs to be pressed for THREE SECONDS
>> to switch off the vehicle. duh.
>
> that may well be easy to do when you are stopped in your driveway, but if
> you are careening down the highway at an unreasonably fast speed your
> perception of how long 3 seconds is may be a tad altered.
>
> you are obviously a loon if you are trying to defend this as good
> design.

A lot of companies have adopted it. I think Honda was one of the first
with the S2000.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:29:29 -0600, jim wrote:

>> you said, quote, "How is that going to help someone with an out of
>> control vehicle".
>>
>> that implies that there's nothing the driver can do to control it.
>
> No it implies that reading the manual is not an option when you are
> speeding down the highway with a runaway vehicle.

No **** Sherlock!

Don't you read the OM when you get a new car?

"Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B" wrote:
>
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:05:37 -0600, jim wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >
> >> so read the freakin' owners manual!
> >
> > How is that going to help someone with an out of control vehicle?
>
> We're kind of assuming you familiarize yourself with a vehicle loaded with
> technology that may be unfamiliar BEFORE you find yourself hurtling
> through space at 125 MPH. How had she been turning the car off before that?
>
> >
> >
> >> besides, unless this is absolutely the first time this person has ever
> >> sat behind the wheel of this vehicle, and hasn't yet turned it off, they
> >> will have LEARNED that the button needs to be pressed for THREE SECONDS
> >> to switch off the vehicle. duh.
> >
> > that may well be easy to do when you are stopped in your driveway, but if
> > you are careening down the highway at an unreasonably fast speed your
> > perception of how long 3 seconds is may be a tad altered.
> >
> > you are obviously a loon if you are trying to defend this as good
> > design.
>
> A lot of companies have adopted it. I think Honda was one of the first
> with the S2000.

I think it was a '46 chevy coupe that was the first car I saw where you
pushed a button on the dash to start the car. It was considered cutting
edge technology. A big step forward from stepping on a pedal on the
floor.

In message >, jim
> writes
> I think it was a '46 chevy coupe that was the first car I saw where you
>pushed a button on the dash to start the car. It was considered cutting
>edge technology. A big step forward from stepping on a pedal on the
>floor.
I can remember cars from between the wars having starter buttons as
standard, it was a long time later that there was another space (other
than off and on) that allowed you to crank the engine with the key.
--
Clive

On Feb 23, 8:35*pm, Hachiroku > wrote:
> A woman testified before Congress that when her Toyota began accelerating
> uncontrollably she "put the car in neutral and it had no effect, I stepped
> on the brakes and it had no effect, I applied the emergency brake and it
> had no effect, I even tried to put the car into reverse and I couldn't."
>
> Huh? Putting the car in neutral had no effect? Someone provide with with a
> clue on this one.
>
> BTW< the car was a Lexus.

driver = Mrs. Rhonda Smith of Servierville, Tenn
Car = 2007 Lexus ES350
Event date = October 2006
Event location = I-40, Tennessee
Event Car Mileage: 3000 miles
Current Car Mileage: 30000 miles

Event description = The driver testified
before congress that her car accelerates to
100mph. as she attempted to slow it down
using her brakes, emergency brakes, by
shifting the car into neutral, and by
shifting the car into reverse. After
6 miles the car stops[1].

Ms. Smith trade in her 2007 Lexus ES350
after 3000 miles. It was purchased by
another family whom has since driven
it another 27000 miles without incident
until the NHTSA has purchased it for
testing at its Vehicle Research and Test
Center in East Liberty, Ohio. It has
been reported that the NHTSA
purchased the car for about
$42,500 for testing [2]. The
blue book value of the car in good
condition is $23,185.

[1]
http://www.startribune.com/business/84955817.html
http://www.gainesville.com/article/2...CLES/100229805
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6234834.shtml
http://www.factsaboutclimatechange.c...ive+Technology

[2]
http://www.factsaboutclimatechange.c...ive+Technology
http://www.factsaboutclimatechange.c...12y12h94s27k02
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/sha...-rhonda-smith/
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...utomakers.html
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...443/1148/rss25
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/eco...l?hpid=topnews

Neo wrote:
> On Feb 23, 8:35 pm, Hachiroku > wrote:
>> A woman testified before Congress that when her Toyota began accelerating
>> uncontrollably she "put the car in neutral and it had no effect, I stepped
>> on the brakes and it had no effect, I applied the emergency brake and it
>> had no effect, I even tried to put the car into reverse and I couldn't."
>>
>> Huh? Putting the car in neutral had no effect? Someone provide with with a
>> clue on this one.
>>
>> BTW< the car was a Lexus.
>
> driver = Mrs. Rhonda Smith of Servierville, Tenn
> Car = 2007 Lexus ES350
> Event date = October 2006
> Event location = I-40, Tennessee
> Event Car Mileage: 3000 miles
> Current Car Mileage: 30000 miles
>
> Event description = The driver testified
> before congress that her car accelerates to
> 100mph. as she attempted to slow it down
> using her brakes, emergency brakes, by
> shifting the car into neutral, and by
> shifting the car into reverse. After
> 6 miles the car stops[1].
>
> Ms. Smith trade in her 2007 Lexus ES350
> after 3000 miles. It was purchased by
> another family whom has since driven
> it another 27000 miles without incident
> until the NHTSA has purchased it for
> testing at its Vehicle Research and Test
> Center in East Liberty, Ohio. It has
> been reported that the NHTSA
> purchased the car for about
> $42,500 for testing [2]. The
> blue book value of the car in good
> condition is $23,185.
>

Sure, but this one had celebrity status...