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Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards OR Defying the Laws of Physics



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 30th 07, 12:19 PM posted to talk.politics.misc,sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,can.politics,alt.politics.democrats
Greg Carr[_2_]
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Posts: 2
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards OR Defying the Laws of Physics

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:10:46 -0600,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, V-for-Vendicar wrote:
>>
> wrote
>>> "The efficiency of an internal combustion engine is
>>> based on total energy of the fuel and the amount of
>>> energy used to perform useful work. So by
>>> legislating a fuel efficiency increase of about 40%,
>>> our Congress Critters were attempting to rewrite Laws
>>> of Thermodynamics."

>>
>> Over 30 teams from the U.S., Canada, India and Bahrain participated in the
>> SAE's annual mileage competition June 7-8, 2007 in Marshall, Michigan. The
>> competition requires the development and construction of a single person,
>> fuel efficient vehicle. All vehicles must be powered by a small four-cycle
>> engine, have a minimum of three wheels, and the driver must be fully
>> enclosed to prevent contact with the ground. The winner is based on a
>> combination of best fuel economy and points from technical inspections of
>> the vehicles. The 2006 winner, the University of British Columbia, achieved
>> a record 3,145 miles per gallon!

>
>These vehicles are completely irrelevant to anything useful for
>transportation on public roads.
>
>They are as I recall a recombent bicycle with an ICE that runs at full
>throttle and then coasts, rinse and repeat.
>

Look at those tiny Passats on the road. There could be a market for
these things.

We are awaiting the return of our JHVH in the flesh or his Son. His Son Yu'shua died on the cross for our sins, was resurrected and walked the earth for awhile then ascended unto Heaven. We await the Third Coming not the Second.

Scottish Quaker Robert Barclay-"The weighty Truths of God were neglected, and, as it were, went into Desuetude. ...

Who will be the last Coalition soldier to be maimed in Iraq?

Canadian troops out of Afghanistan and into Darfur.
http://www.amnesty.ca/instantkarma/petition.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI-xlbDzVbQ I Like Big Bibles

Good luck to anyone trying to learn Hebrew. I am looking for a Hebrew-Gregorian calendar in both Hebrew and English lettering.
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  #12  
Old December 30th 07, 01:00 PM posted to sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,alt.politics.democrats
The Ghost In The Machine
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards,leotard78sp whines again..

In sci.environment, Eeyore
>
wrote
on Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:15:10 +0000
>:
>
>
> Kurt Lochner wrote:
>
>> AKA sniveled ineptly:
>> >
>> > So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
>> > average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
>> > and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
>> > I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.

>
> I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car that
> could happily tootle along at 80–90mph, nip past obstructive drivers in
> old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a gallon of
> diesel.
>
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52


Is that at 90 mph? Somehow, I doubt it. Best I can do is
200 mpg in a Mini Cooper S form factor at 67 mph (30 m/s)
using the Drag Equation, and that's not taking rolling
friction into consideration. At 45 m/s (100.7 mph) one
gets 88.9 mpg, as drag is proportional to the square of
the speed.

The stats I've seen for hybrids such as the Prius suggest
that hybrids get worse mileage on the highway than in
the city -- a testament to the inefficiencies of the
reciprocating piston internal combustion engine at
low RPMs.

>
> OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
>
> Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an irrational
> fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine design is making even
> SPORTY diesels possible. They have exceptional torque which most drivers
> like too.


The US "fear" is not all that irrational, given the
diesel's history of sounding like a bad truck, smelling
like the inside of an oil can, and looking like something
coming out of a fireplace. Of course that's in the same
boat as brussel sprouts, which AIUI tasted bad because of
their canning decades ago; both have been since resolved,
using more efficient designs.

However, Americans, myself included, have a fairly long
memory. It will probably take a little while to purge
these prejudices out of our system.

I may never eat brussel sprouts. I might consider a
diesel, though. :-)

>
> Graham
>


--
#191,
/dev/signatu Not a text file

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  #13  
Old December 30th 07, 01:23 PM posted to sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,alt.politics.democrats
The Ghost In The Machine
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards,leotard78sp whines again..

In sci.environment, Eeyore
>
wrote
on Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:19:18 +0000
>:
>
>
> Kurt Lochner wrote:
>
>> AKA sniveled ineptly:
>> >
>> >The new gas mileage standards mandated
>> >by the recently passed energy legislation
>> >defy the laws of physics..

>>
>> leotard, you don't know any physics to speak of..

>
> The laws of physics certainly do tend to say that expecting a 7 litre
> V-8 (or even say a more humble 4 litre) to do 35 mpg is wishful thinking
> ! But who actually NEEDS one ?
>
> Graham
>


Who needs a car to begin with? :-) But given that, I'd
be surprised if one can do 35 mpg in an SUV form factor,
even with the most efficient of engines. If one assumes
stoplights every 500 m and a driving speed of 15 m/s, a
2-tonne car needs to spend 225 kJ just getting up to
speed, and then waste that 225 kJ stopping (unless one uses
regenerative braking techniques), translating into 450 J/m
or 724204.8 J/mile or 167 mpg (given gasoline's energy density
of about 121 MJ/gallon) -- and that's without air drag,
rotational friction, and Carnot inefficiencies.

The solution, of course, is to shrink the car and use
lighter materials. Ideally, every family of 2 kids
under driving age (around 16-18 years) would have three
cars:

- his car, which would be a tiny 1-seater with very high
fuel efficiency, optimized for commuting, and just
big enough to hold a briefcase and a cup of coffee.[*]
- her car, which would be a 1 to 3-seater with not quite
as high fuel efficiency but which can carry a week's
worth of groceries; it can also be used to pick up
and drop off kids from various functions, although
ideally the kids would use bicycles instead or just walk,
as both are healthier, if less safe in some neighborhoods,
depending on the age of said kids (obviously babies
crawling to the day care center or to Grandma gets
ridiculous, but there's a line somewhere).
- the family car, which would be a 4-seater primarily
intended for long trips and family outings, and it
sits in the garage most days.

(Switch roles as appropriate. There's a few issues if his
employment involves hauling [long haul truckers] and/or
building construction work. Not sure how to handle a visit
by his folks, her mother in law or by either Grandma --
or all of the above simultaneously during the winter
holiday season. Hopefully they have cars of their own.)

It is possible to change this mix somewhat, or add additional
components such as mass transit (trains, vanpools, light rail,
commuter buses).
[*] This is suggested with humorous effect by
_The Incredibles_, among many other venues. One would,
of course, want a little more durability so that it
can survive being gripped or slammed, of course.

--
#191,

Linux. Because Windows' Blue Screen Of Death is just
way too frightening to novice users.

--
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  #14  
Old December 30th 07, 01:46 PM posted to sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,alt.politics.democrats
Scruffy McScruffovitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards, leotard78sp whines again..

In News ,, Eeyore at
, typed this:

> Kurt Lochner wrote:
>
>>
AKA sniveled ineptly:
>>>
>>> So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
>>> average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
>>> and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
>>> I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.

>
> I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car that
> could happily tootle along at 80-90mph, nip past obstructive drivers
> in old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a
> gallon of diesel.
>
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
>
> OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
>
> Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an
> irrational fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine design
> is making even SPORTY diesels possible. They have exceptional torque
> which most drivers like too.
>
> Graham


How well do they operate at -30 degrees Fahrenheit?


--
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong
enough to take away everything you have."

Thomas Jefferson


  #16  
Old December 30th 07, 01:57 PM posted to sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,alt.politics.democrats
Shawn Hirn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 392
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards, leotard78sp whines again..

In article >,
Eeyore > wrote:

> Kurt Lochner wrote:
>
> > AKA sniveled ineptly:
> > >
> > > So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
> > > average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
> > > and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
> > > I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.

>
> I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car that
> could happily tootle along at 80–90mph, nip past obstructive drivers in
> old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a gallon of
> diesel.
>
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
>
> OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
>
> Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an irrational
> fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine design is making even
> SPORTY diesels possible. They have exceptional torque which most drivers
> like too.


In my area, finding a gas station where diesel is sold is a challenge. I
live in South Jersey. I was once driving home on the Atlantic City
Parkway two or three years ago. I stopped to get gas at one of the road
side places and a guy in front of me pulls up in a fancy Mercedes and
the gas station attendant had to send him away because he needed diesel
and that station didn't sell any. Hopefully, he had enough gas in his
tank to find a station where diesel is sold.
  #18  
Old December 30th 07, 03:25 PM posted to sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,alt.politics.democrats
Eeyore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,670
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards, leotard78spwhines again..



Scruffy McScruffovitch wrote:

> Eeyore at typed this:
> > Kurt Lochner wrote:
> >> AKA sniveled ineptly:
> >>>
> >>> So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
> >>> average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
> >>> and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
> >>> I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.

> >
> > I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> > staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car that
> > could happily tootle along at 80-90mph, nip past obstructive drivers
> > in old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a
> > gallon of diesel.
> >
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
> >
> > OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
> >
> > Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an
> > irrational fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine design
> > is making even SPORTY diesels possible. They have exceptional torque
> > which most drivers like too.

>
> How well do they operate at -30 degrees Fahrenheit?


I have NO idea.

How well do YOU work at -30 F ( -34C) ? How much of the year do you have
those temps ? I imagine ANY car will need pre-warming to operate usefully.

Graham

  #19  
Old December 30th 07, 03:33 PM posted to sci.environment,rec.autos.driving,alt.politics.democrats
Eeyore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,670
Default Coping With The New CAFÉ Standards, leotard78spwhines again..



Shawn Hirn wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > Kurt Lochner wrote:
> > > AKA sniveled ineptly:
> > > >
> > > > So I began to wonder what vehicle would get an
> > > > average of 35 mpg. Since I was at a Toyota dealership
> > > > and Toyota has been a leader in fuel efficient vehicles,
> > > > I started checking out the vehicles on the lot.

> >
> > I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a
> > staggeringly good little car.... I have never driven another car that
> > could happily tootle along at 80–90mph, nip past obstructive drivers in
> > old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a gallon of
> > diesel.
> >
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
> >
> > OK that's a UK gallon but it's still 50.4 US mpg !
> >
> > Diesel engines are a large part of the answer. The USA has an irrational
> > fear of them though. Modern European diesel engine design is making even
> > SPORTY diesels possible. They have exceptional torque which most drivers
> > like too.

>
> In my area, finding a gas station where diesel is sold is a challenge.


In the UK, typically all pumps deliver diesel. Our pumps are normally
'multi-fuel' types. You select which one you want by pressing a button or
picking up the appropriate hose. This is simple stuff and has been do-able for
decades. Indeed it HAS been done for decades in Europe and elsewhere.

In this picture you can see 2 green hoses for example. One will be 95 octane
unleaded and the other 98 octane. Diesel comes down a black hose.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7021021.stm

In some European countries diesel cars represent the majority of new car
sales. Their economy is undeniable. Their performance is daily improving.

Graham

 




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