Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays???

"Go Fig" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, PTRAVEL
> > wrote:
>
>> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >, PTRAVEL
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > PTRAVEL > writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
>> >> >> that he actually existed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
>> >>
>> >> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than
>> >> what's
>> >> mentioned in the Bible.
>> >
>> > Josephus makes testimony to his existence.
>>
>> A quick yahoo search suggests that this contention is, at minimum,
>> controversial.
>
> Your wrong. The only thing that is in contention is to the extent to
> which the Church has embellished his writings in "Antiquities"
>
> For example, in successive versions over 100s of years recalled by the
> Church, they would add things like 'if you could call him a man'
>
> However, Josephus clearly identifies Jesus.

Okay, I'll take your word for it. Honestly, it's not something I'm
interested in debating. Whether Jesus had historical existence or not,
while clearly of critical importance to those of Christian faith, simply
doesn't matter to me. As I've said, I respect, and am happy for, anyone
whose faith brings them meaning and a sense of purpose.

>
> It is Josephus that provides an eyewitness written account to the fall
> of the Jewish temple.
>
> jay
> Fri Dec 30, 2005
>
>
>
>
>> In either event, I'll simply quote what myself:
>>
>> "Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>> win --
>> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>> high
>> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>>
>> So what?"
>>
>> From what I understand, there is historical proof of the existence of
>> Mohammad. Is that supposed to make me suddenly accept Islaam?
>>
>>
>> >
>> > jay
>> > Fri Dec 30, 2005
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > The same could be said of *any* figure
>> >> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically
>> >> > universal
>> >> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed
>> >> > des-
>> >> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
>> >>
>> >> Such as?
>> >>
>> >> > What evidence do you have
>> >> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
>> >>
>> >> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
>> >>
>> >> > It's not as though
>> >> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name
>> >> > signed
>> >> > to them.
>> >>
>> >> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
>> >> >> than Gilgamesh.
>> >> >
>> >> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
>> >> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
>> >>
>> >> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>> >> win --
>> >> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>> >> high
>> >> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>> >>
>> >> So what?
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
>> >> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
>> >> >> as Shintoism is today.
>> >> >
>> >> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
>> >> > in order to be Jewish.
>> >>
>> >> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look
>> >> to
>> >> for
>> >> halachal rulings.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've
>> >> got
>> >> a
>> >> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you
>> >> were
>> >> invited to the seder.
>> >>
>> >> So what?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
>> >> >
>> >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
>> >>
>> >> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
>> >> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete!
>> >> > OK!
>> >> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of
>> >> >> someone
>> >> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
>> >> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
>> >> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
>> >> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
>> >> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
>> >> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
>> >> >
>> >> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install
>> >> > a
>> >> > Christian theocracy?
>> >>
>> >> Yes.
>> >>
>> >> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
>> >> > severely.
>> >> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
>> >>
>> >> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and
>> >> there
>> >> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ
>> >> that
>> >> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
>> >> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
>> >> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only
>> >> their
>> >> version of Christianity).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Why do liberals,
>> >> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
>> >> > threatened by Christianity?
>> >>
>> >> I'm not a liberal.
>> >>
>> >> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this
>> >> thread?
>> >>
>> >> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
>> >> threatening:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
>> >> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1
>> >> billion.
>> >> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with
>> >> federal
>> >> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no
>> >> oversight.
>> >> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice
>> >> solely
>> >> on
>> >> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v.
>> >> Wade.
>> >> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
>> >> included abortion.
>> >> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
>> >> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
>> >> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long
>> >> as
>> >> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
>> >>
>> >> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
>> >>
>> >> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Booogaboogabooga!
>> >>
>> >> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
>> >> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
>> >> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
>> >> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
>> >> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
>> >> >
>> >> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
>> >> > has been for ages.
>> >>
>> >> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a
>> >> Budhist
>> >> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
>> >>
>> >> > Get over youself.
>> >>
>> >> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe,
>> >> and
>> >> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
>> >> incredibly antisemitic.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>

"john" > wrote in message

> No one should expect to win an argument with that brilliant
> know-it-all attorney, PTRAVEL.

Well, you certainly shouldn't, not with your command of debating technique.

Isn't it past your bedtime?

stop crossposting this insane babble to travel forums you minute bedouin,


"PTRAVEL" > kirjoitti
...
>
> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >, PTRAVEL
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > PTRAVEL > writes:
>>> >
>>> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
>>> >> that he actually existed.
>>> >
>>> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
>>>
>>> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than
>>> what's
>>> mentioned in the Bible.
>>
>> Josephus makes testimony to his existence.
>
> A quick yahoo search suggests that this contention is, at minimum,
> controversial. In either event, I'll simply quote what myself:
>
> "Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
> win --
> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his high
> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>
> So what?"
>
> From what I understand, there is historical proof of the existence of
> Mohammad. Is that supposed to make me suddenly accept Islaam?
>
>
>>
>> jay
>> Fri Dec 30, 2005
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> > The same could be said of *any* figure
>>> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
>>> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
>>> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
>>>
>>> Such as?
>>>
>>> > What evidence do you have
>>> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
>>>
>>> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
>>>
>>> > It's not as though
>>> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
>>> > to them.
>>>
>>> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
>>> >> than Gilgamesh.
>>> >
>>> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
>>> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
>>>
>>> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>>> win --
>>> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>>> high
>>> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>>>
>>> So what?
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
>>> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
>>> >> as Shintoism is today.
>>> >
>>> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
>>> > in order to be Jewish.
>>>
>>> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to
>>> for
>>> halachal rulings.
>>>
>>> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've got
>>> a
>>> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you were
>>> invited to the seder.
>>>
>>> So what?
>>>
>>>
>>> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
>>> >
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
>>>
>>> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
>>> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
>>> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
>>> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
>>> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
>>> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
>>> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
>>> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
>>> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
>>> >
>>> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
>>> > Christian theocracy?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
>>> > severely.
>>> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
>>>
>>> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and
>>> there
>>> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ
>>> that
>>> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
>>> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
>>> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only
>>> their
>>> version of Christianity).
>>>
>>>
>>> > Why do liberals,
>>> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
>>> > threatened by Christianity?
>>>
>>> I'm not a liberal.
>>>
>>> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this
>>> thread?
>>>
>>> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
>>> threatening:
>>>
>>> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
>>> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1
>>> billion.
>>> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with
>>> federal
>>> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no
>>> oversight.
>>> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice solely
>>> on
>>> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
>>> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
>>> included abortion.
>>> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
>>> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
>>> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
>>> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
>>>
>>> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
>>>
>>> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Booogaboogabooga!
>>>
>>> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
>>> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
>>> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
>>> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
>>> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
>>> >
>>> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
>>> > has been for ages.
>>>
>>> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a
>>> Budhist
>>> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
>>>
>>> > Get over youself.
>>>
>>> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe,
>>> and
>>> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
>>> incredibly antisemitic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

"Markku Grönroos" > wrote in message
...
> stop crossposting this insane babble to travel forums you minute bedouin,

I told you, I don't take orders from antisemites.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

>
>
> "PTRAVEL" > kirjoitti
> ...
>>
>> "Go Fig" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >, PTRAVEL
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Geoff Miller" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > PTRAVEL > writes:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I guess you didn't read the thread. I've never seen any evidence
>>>> >> that he actually existed.
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh, come on; that's a cop-out.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not. There's no historical evidence of Jesus, other than
>>>> what's
>>>> mentioned in the Bible.
>>>
>>> Josephus makes testimony to his existence.
>>
>> A quick yahoo search suggests that this contention is, at minimum,
>> controversial. In either event, I'll simply quote what myself:
>>
>> "Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>> win --
>> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>> high
>> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>>
>> So what?"
>>
>> From what I understand, there is historical proof of the existence of
>> Mohammad. Is that supposed to make me suddenly accept Islaam?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> jay
>>> Fri Dec 30, 2005
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > The same could be said of *any* figure
>>>> > who lived before modern times, and yet, there's practically universal
>>>> > consensus that any number of historical figures actually existed des-
>>>> > pite their being no direct evidence of it.
>>>>
>>>> Such as?
>>>>
>>>> > What evidence do you have
>>>> > that, say, Christopher Columbus actually existed?
>>>>
>>>> Lots of contemporary documentation, as I recall.
>>>>
>>>> > It's not as though
>>>> > he left anything tangible behind, like paintings with his name signed
>>>> > to them.
>>>>
>>>> Did you learn your history from a comic book?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> To me, and to my non-Christian friends, he's a myth -- no different
>>>> >> than Gilgamesh.
>>>> >
>>>> > It seems to me that your being non-Christian is orthogonal to the
>>>> > matter of whether there's any evidence of Jesus's existence.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, let me put it another way. Why should I even care? Okay, you
>>>> win --
>>>> he existed. There is all sorts of proof -- photographs of him in his
>>>> high
>>>> school year book, laundry receipts, credit card applications.
>>>>
>>>> So what?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> If, on the other hand, he did exist, he was an Essene -- a member
>>>> >> of a hermitic cult that was about as far from main stream Judaism
>>>> >> as Shintoism is today.
>>>> >
>>>> > They don't have to have been in, or close to, the Jewish mainstream
>>>> > in order to be Jewish.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Says you. Sorry, but you are about the last person I would look to
>>>> for
>>>> halachal rulings.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Why should I even care? Okay, you win -- he was Jewish. You've
>>>> got a
>>>> letter from his rabbi, you've seen his bar mitzvah photographs, you
>>>> were
>>>> invited to the seder.
>>>>
>>>> So what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > The mainstream isn't the whole.
>>>> >
>>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
>>>>
>>>> You're quoting wikipedia? You've got to be kidding.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > "Ancient Essene communications protocols routed around obscenity
>>>> > vulgarity pornography. Content? Absolute yes! Delete! Delete! OK!
>>>> > Do not drink newsgroup" -- Blair Haworth
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Suggesting that, as a Jew, I should "celebrate" the birth of someone
>>>> >> who my religion regards as a false prophet and counterfeit Messiah,
>>>> >> in whose name unspeakable things have been done to my ancestors for
>>>> >> 2,000 years, and whose adherents (at least some) seem intent on
>>>> >> hijacking the country which I claim as my own (and for which my
>>>> >> father fought and was wounded) so that they can install a Christian
>>>> >> theocracy is, frankly, extremely offensive.
>>>> >
>>>> > Do you honestly believe that Bush and company would like to install a
>>>> > Christian theocracy?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> > If so, that undermines your credibility pretty
>>>> > severely.
>>>> > Yes, the man is a Christian. So what?
>>>>
>>>> All of our presidents have been Christians of one form or another, and
>>>> there
>>>> is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's not belief in Jesus Christ
>>>> that
>>>> I'm criticizing, but being an adherent to a minority experssion of
>>>> Christianity that believes that their understanding of God trumps the
>>>> Constitution, and that this should be a Christian nation (albeit only
>>>> their
>>>> version of Christianity).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Why do liberals,
>>>> > particularly liberal Jews (like there's any other kind) feel so
>>>> > threatened by Christianity?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not a liberal.
>>>>
>>>> Notwithstanding, have you read any history? Or, perhaps, even this
>>>> thread?
>>>>
>>>> My short list of Bush/Christian Fundamentalist actions which I find
>>>> threatening:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Banning funding of new-line stem cell research.
>>>> 2. Funding of the "Support Marriage" initiative to the tune of $1
>>>> billion.
>>>> 3. Establishment of the Department of Faith-Based Initiatives, with
>>>> federal
>>>> tax dollars going to religious organizations with little or no
>>>> oversight.
>>>> 4. Nominating an unqualified lawyer to be a Supreme Court justice
>>>> solely on
>>>> the basis of "religousness" that would ensure over-turning Roe v. Wade.
>>>> 5. Eliminating U.S. funding of international health initiatives that
>>>> included abortion.
>>>> 6. Supporting a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
>>>> 7. Supporting the teaching of creationism in public schools.
>>>> 8. Funding prostelytization by evangelical Christian groups, as long as
>>>> their religious message includes "abstinence education."
>>>>
>>>> And my personal favorite -- when Bush was governor of Texas:
>>>>
>>>> 9. Proclaiming "Jesus Christ Day" in Texas.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Booogaboogabooga!
>>>>
>>>> Ah, the sound of the Constitution washing down the drain.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> I do not, however, share your beliefs, I don't want to share your
>>>> >> beliefs, and I'd be very happy if you'd accord me the same courtesy
>>>> >> that I accord you and not insist that I participate in your beliefs
>>>> >> to the extent of "celebrating" the birth of someone I regard as
>>>> >> mythical and superfluous to my own search for meaning and purpose.
>>>> >
>>>> > Except to the extremely devout, Christmas is a secular holiday and
>>>> > has been for ages.
>>>>
>>>> Who cares? Whatever Christmas is, it isn't a Jewish holiday (or a
>>>> Budhist
>>>> one or Shinto one or Hindu one, etc.)
>>>>
>>>> > Get over youself.
>>>>
>>>> You get over yourself. Who are you to tell me what I should believe,
>>>> and
>>>> what holidays I should observe? How incredibly arrogant. And how
>>>> incredibly antisemitic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>